Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (Full Version)

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lenbo -> Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 7:15:49 AM)

A warning about doing business with Ray Walker of MAison Ilan in Nuit St George. He does not deliver wines as promised. Yes I've gotten some delivery but not until a lot of broken promises and out right lies and much work on my part. At this point I have asked him to refund my monies. He will not return several weeks worth of emails.
Be very cautious.

Lenny Feinberg



ChrisinCowiche -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 8:25:48 AM)

If you don't believe Lenny, and have a spare few days to spend reading, look here...

http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=100335


Welcome to the forum Lenny, I hope you get resolution with Maison Ilan.



musedir -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 8:54:40 AM)

Boy, this does not sound good at all. Ray is way beyond first issues and import protocols.



lenbo -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 8:54:42 AM)

Thanks Chris.

Wow I see I'm not the only one with issues from Maison Ilan. I dealt directly with Ray Walker. I'm so sorry I got involved. I've asked for a refund of my monies several times. He ignores the requests. Worst of all I had a friend buy wines too. I feel responsible for his eventual loss. A good lesson I guess.



DoubleD1969 -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 9:05:15 AM)

It is unfortunate. Being a finance guy, I was pulling for Ray. It sounds like the actions of a business that was under-capitalized and some bad luck with nature. I hope everyone is made whole and Maison Ilan continues.



smigdiggler -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 9:13:32 AM)

I have been silent for a while, but my many emails have gone unresponded to. Compared to many of you, I am out 1 magnum of the 09. I am saddened if it has come to this, as I visited him about a year and a half ago.

Thinking positive thoughts that things will clear up soon.

-dave



mye -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 9:51:57 AM)

The MI thread on Wine Berserkers has reached iconic status.. what a cluster f@#$..

I was really hoping to win that MI bottle on fantasy football this year.. just so i can taste what the hype was about!



mjobtx -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 10:13:16 AM)

I find this thread very interesting because of my personal experience with Ray. That experience led me not to purchase his wines. My wife and I were traveling in the Burgundy region in October 2012. Prior to traveling I set up appointments to meet several wine makers including Ray. When I arrived at Ray's place at the appointed time, it took quite some time for him to come to the door. When he did, he looked exhausted and he told me his daughter had been sick all night and that he would not be able to visit. Perfectly understandable. I told him I was sorry we wouldn't be able to visit while we were in the region.

He asked if we could come back two days later and he set a time. We had planned to be elsewhere that day but we agreed to delay our departure to be able to visit with Ray. We went back on the appointed day and day and no one answered the door. We left disappointed but informed about the way he does business. Mason Ilan was quickly stricken from my list.

I didn't post anything at the time because I had thought it might be an anomaly but this suggests follow up is not his strong suit. Neither is keeping appointments.



Robert Pavlovich -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 11:10:04 AM)

Interesting to hear new stories, when just a short while ago a new e-mail was put out to try and smooth things over.

I always kind of thought buying wines two years ahead from a new producer (an American in Burgundy none the less) was a doubtful proposition. Yet it was the trendy thing to do and he even got on TV, it was hard to escape the buzz. I was about ready to load in on the '12s a couple years ago when I missed Ray's call at one of our local CT gatherings at WCC. Luckily before reconnecting with Ray I spoke to my wife and she convinced me to pass. To quench my curiosity I grabbed a couple '11 Charmes Chambertin from Woodland Hills and was underwhelmed by the first bottle of two. Amid all the hype, fingers was good enough to open an '09 Charmes Chambertin for a few of us, and I didn't care for that bottle either. I imagine his '10s are pretty good, such a strong vintage, but this has been a crazy story to track. A movie could be made.



AMO -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 2:22:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DoubleD1969

It is unfortunate. Being a finance guy, I was pulling for Ray. It sounds like the actions of a business that was under-capitalized and some bad luck with nature. I hope everyone is made whole and Maison Ilan continues.


Without trying to "pile on" to Mr. Walker's misfortunes, I wouldn't exactly call him a "finance guy". Being a broker trainee is a very small step toward becoming a "finance guy". I was one myself ("a finance guy"), although not a broker; none of the paths to success in finance are easy, and all of them require hard work and commitment.



S1 -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 2:33:36 PM)

I received my 11's (very late and at ridiculous shipping charges).
We'll see about the 12's
Ray has completely screwed with the trust of the people who supported him on several wine forums. He doesn't return messages and has not delivered on promises of timelines, or even of available stock.

Until I get the personal attention and contact I received when he was taking my money, I'm out.
To anyone gullible enough to buy in at this point, I wish you lots of luck.



ShawnM789 -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 2:48:35 PM)

Does anyone know what the time frame is to do a credit card dispute? I may call mine to just see time frame. But I'm also glad to hear this now, I will now pass on the next release. Pretty disappointing



annerk -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 4:45:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShawnM789

Does anyone know what the time frame is to do a credit card dispute? I may call mine to just see time frame. But I'm also glad to hear this now, I will now pass on the next release. Pretty disappointing


90 days to six months, although AmEx helped me out a year later with a fraud situation.



markandsusanw -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 5:57:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: S1

Until I get the personal attention and contact I received when he was taking my money, I'm out.
To anyone gullible enough to buy in at this point, I wish you lots of luck.



^^^ This right here is the key.

I feel lucky that these were above my price point, because I did look at the offerings in the initial hype phase. And I've read the WB thread, on and off, with horror. Of course, I have my own problems with wish-I-knew-then-what-I-know-now-purhases -- hello, Vinotemp! -- but at least I dodged this bullet. Condolences and hope for resolve for those who didn't.



mwest -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 6:18:35 PM)

I received my 11's after endless delays and no responses to my inquiries. When I received the most recent email offer I promptly unsubscribed. My view is that wine is a luxury and that I need not support anyone who is not a pleasure to interact with. The reality is that I don't have enough funds to allocate to everyone I would like to... so it is pretty easy to make the cut list :)



ericindc -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 7:29:26 PM)

I have to admit, i have a 1/2 case each of 2012s and 2013s outstanding. We shall see. At the end of the day, its not enough money to make me as angry as some but I always view wine as essentially a gamble anyways. I do have to backfill some 2012s just in case I never get them though.



brigcampbell -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 7:37:10 PM)

Yeah, the thread in WB is an atrocity. I have many friends wrapped in that mess, fortunately, not me.

I have tasted ONE of Ray's wines and would have been upset if I had paid $40 for it much less the $135+ that shows in CT. Full disclosure: I tasted this blind and it was before the $#|+ hit the fan. There were serious burgheads at this tasting as mentioned below, me not being one of them.

2009 Maison Ilan Charmes-Chambertin Aux Charmes Hautes - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Charmes-Chambertin Grand Cru (6/18/2012)
Cali and Burgs Blind (FMIII in the OC): Blind - guessed burg correctly. Boy was this wine a topic of conversation for the burgheads after the unveiling, whew. Some thought is was slightly flawed, some though it was disjointed, some like me thought "just OK". Very interested debate by those in the know.

Rank: #3 of 4 in Second Flight
Posted from CellarTracker



BornToRhone -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 8:03:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brigcampbell
Yeah, the thread in WB is an atrocity. I have many friends wrapped in that mess, fortunately, not me.


I was certainly disappointed in Ray's lack of communication, disorganization, and apparent lack of responsibility. A good business man he appears to be not.

I was also utterly dismayed at the vehemence and personal vendetta a few folks had towards Ray, when they had not even bought any wines from Ray and had no skin in the game. All they preceded to do was get in the way and cloud the conversations of those seeking information. [X(]

All-in-all, there were zero winners in that game...

Hence....that's why I love you guys over those Beserkers!! [8D]



caeleric -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 8:17:46 PM)

read a little bit. seems like an awful situation. seems like there should be SOME legal recourse somewhere if the wines are never delivered.



River Rat -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 8:18:16 PM)

My one experience with MI wine was a disappointment.

  • 2009 Maison Ilan Morey St. Denis 1er Cru Les Chaffots - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Morey St. Denis 1er Cru (1/4/2015)
    Sunday gathering, Benji visits Wine Country (Napa Valley Wine & Cigar): Poor storage or closure failure, cork wet right to top. Nose was all brett, no fruit, or acidity, muted rose petal water. Very poor showing. NR (flawed)[/list]
    Posted from CellarTracker



    • BornToRhone -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/21/2015 8:21:29 PM)

    ^. That blows....



    ShawnM789 -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/22/2015 4:29:44 AM)

    Agree, hopefully we get what we paid for with-in a respectable timeframe.


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: caeleric

    read a little bit. seems like an awful situation. seems like there should be SOME legal recourse somewhere if the wines are never delivered.




    ericindc -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/22/2015 7:45:57 AM)

    I suppose it would be nice to have some legal recourse, but what are the options, sue in french court? I got my '11s, I still have alot of outstanding '12 burgundy from other producers, so I will just wait and see.



    ksmith -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/22/2015 7:54:19 AM)

    My sympathies to all who are involved. I signed up at one point and got his email, but when I tried to order a few bottles, I was told I needed to make a larger order to get any. Instant drop! Turns out to have been very fortuitous. I did pick up a bottle from a retailer just to "try one out". I now have low expectations.



    BornToRhone -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/22/2015 4:02:34 PM)

    SH and I actually met him over in NSG, France back in 2013 and we tasted in his little cellar there. Initially, he was running a bit late - had to run his daughter somewhere. Seemed like a nice enough guy to chat with. We talked about his plans for the place, building a garage/barn for a place to work out of the rain, etc. Very small space, though.

    For some reason, I did not even ask to purchase any futures, or to ask for any bottles. Guess I lucked out.

    Next opportunity, I will perform an ISO audit and go over his order fulfillment processes in detail! [;)]



    mtpisgah -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/22/2015 5:16:59 PM)

    I ordered the 2012's and planned to order 2013's. But he never responded to my order and multiple follow up emails. I suppose they will arrive one day and I will experience both Premier Cru and Garagiste at the same time.



    khmark7 -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/22/2015 5:57:54 PM)

    Had no real issues with my 2011's, other than the typical delay (which was better than most). Tried the Volnay and thought it was good.

    2012 & 2013 are outstanding.

    Would be surprised if he offered 2014 to a mailing list. Might be best for him to sell to brokers and put this headache behind him.

    As for the wines inherit quality what did people expect? Chrisinsunnyside almost has as much experience.

    Hoping for the best.



    champagneinhand -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/22/2015 8:12:45 PM)

    Don't hate me, but have any of you made wine from purchased grapes? Even in small amounts it is not an easy task or any reason to drop the people you know that are making great wine. I get that wanting to support an American abroad and a guy that came onto the forum etc, but we have to be realists as well, knowing that Burgundy is one of the hardest wines to make, period and that people in business in a foreign country with the changes that have happened economically in the past 8 years, meant that risk was way bigger on an unknown than a well known. I get pulling for the underdog, I am there in spirit but not in wallet.


    Ray is probably a great guy, has made great wine in the past, but there are so many variables, in France of all places. Remember that when Ray started this endeavor that it was under a government leaning a bit right for the first time in a long time. I again wen't towards the socialists and the EU has made some dreadful decisions. I haven't bought truckloads of my wine in full futures, but much in pre-arrival and through credit card as to back up said purchases. Yes it sucks when something doesn't come through but in Burgundy, I am sure that Ray has been going nuts. Imagine how trying to communicate to a world of futures buyers any of the average bad luck things could happen in doing business in Burgundy as an american. I know he has tried to help the newer americans in the area but business is rough anywhere.

    I do feel bad for Ray and his advocates as all have had some tarnishing. It sucks but like any investment where you could have reaped great benefits from, you have to dust yourselves off and hope it didn't break you. My whites from last year have had some yeast reactivate carbonating the rest and changes the sugar content. It sucks but thats why I don't do it for a living. I can still use it for cooking.

    I don't think this is a place where we should jump on entrepreneurs that people became enamored with without knowing all of the data. It was a risk. if it has wrecked somebody, maybe we can crowd fund that person back o some financial health. I know smug, the boys from rasa and Scott (hollowing) have put their names on the line several times as have Yodaddyyo, having to actually close up his custom crush operations. Such is the nature of the business.

    We all have heard to make a pile of money in the wine bus, you need to start with a much bigger pile. I am not try to lecture anybody pr belittle your loss, but I am pretty sure we all knew the risk. I hate to see a dogpile and that is what this is slowly becoming. Clearly this has been rehashed over on WB, so I don't see anything but more camaraderie which is a given over here.

    Okay now you all that lost can be hating on me.



    mjobtx -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/23/2015 9:33:39 AM)

    I disagree champagneinhand. This is exactly the place to share our experiences so that others can learn from them. Whether it is wine, wine makers, shippers, storage, or any other wine related topic this forum has always been dedicated to sharing.



    BRR -> RE: Buyer Beware Maison Ilan (1/23/2015 9:42:43 AM)

    First, I have no iron in this fire. I've not bought anything from him, but have lost no money.

    I, too, have to disagree, CIH. Like mjobtx says above, I think this is exactly the right place to share this discussion. Piling on will be natural. After all, people lost money and, in some cases, a decent chunk of it.

    If someone bought a material good from any other reputable retailer, even if it was to be delivered in he future, and that product didn't show up, one would be rightfully angry. Exchanging money for a good to be delivered is a contract. Non-delivery and non-refunding is a breach of that contract. One would want to be made whole, either buy receiving said purchased good, or getting one's money back. I don't think there is anything even remotely wrong with that. To further exacerbate the situation, if said retailer went radio silent, there would be a very justifiable and understandable reaction from those purchasers. Sure, none of us truly know what is going on at M.I., but I don't think it's fair to fault anyone who's angry and calling into question the person's integrity. At all.



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