Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (Full Version)

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mutwonmax -> Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/26/2024 3:38:45 AM)

Recently I posted Muga Reserva Especial as my personal advice on good wine in the 30 – 50 US$ range. I pointed out that it shouldn’t be confused with with the Muga Crianza which, is, abroad, also marketed as Muga Reserva (without the „Especcial“). Another user responded with the fair objection that you couldn’t randomly brand these legally defined meanings. While I‘ve responded to that query in the same thread already, a few days ago I stumbled across a (German) podcast with a representative from the bodega La Rioja Alta, in which a similar issue came up. I found it interesting enough to pick the subject up again and share it here:
Obviously you can’t label a Rioja Crianza, Reserva or Gran Reserva, if it doesn’t meet the minimum requirements for the respective label. These are for Rioja reds: Crianza 2 Years on site (1 of which in oak barrel), Reserva 3 Years on site (1 of which in oak barrel) and Gran Reserva 5years (2 of which in oak barrel). On the other hand, appearantly not only Muga seems to delibaretly down-label some of their wines. The representative from Rioja Alta for example explained, that they deliberatly market their Vina Alberdi as a Crianza despite the fact that it fullfills all requirements of a Reserva. According to him they do so because otherwise they would loose business in the bars, where it‘s customary for people to order Crianza. He also pointed out that their Ardanza (2015) which they market as Reserva, in fact is a Gran Reserva by the minimum requirements. He said they do so, bcause with the 904 and 890 they already have 2 Gran Reservas on the market.
So his bottom line (to me) was: we make our wines they way we deem best and label them they way we deem appropriate (and/or as marketing requires us to) and we can do so since we’re above the minimum requirements for labelling anyway. (BTW: The represantative from La Rioja Alta comes across as really sympathetic and polite in the podcast. So if his bottom line comes across here as a bit off-showing, thats not my intention and not the impression I took away from the podcast.
As far as Muga Crianza is concerned, i assume, they have the same reason for selling it as Crianza in Spain, but are simply required to label it as Reserva abroad, because the market requires them to.
I wanted to share this here, because I found it quite interesting, (and perhaps to some extent, also because it makes me feel that i sort of get more than what I pay for…)



nwinther -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/26/2024 3:54:43 AM)

Sounds like a very conscientious producer. It makes sense to downgrade your wine if it's costing you business to market... "truthfully" (can't think of the right word right now), and also if you want your best to actually be your best.
However, maybe it's also a testament to the lack of relevance for the legally defined grades (crianza/reserva/gran reserva) that producers are actually outperforming these definitions and maybe they would need an update somehow.

I'm very much for some sort of "classification" (knowing it can be abused), either in terms of appellation/classification (1er Cru) or cellaring (Reserva) as it can tell me what the producer think it's like according to some quasi-objective definition and not just the marketing departments latest impulse.



mutwonmax -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/26/2024 5:02:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nwinther

Sounds like a very conscientious producer. It makes sense to downgrade your wine if it's costing you business to market... "truthfully" (can't think of the right word right now), and also if you want your best to actually be your best.
However, maybe it's also a testament to the lack of relevance for the legally defined grades (crianza/reserva/gran reserva) that producers are actually outperforming these definitions and maybe they would need an update somehow.

I'm very much for some sort of "classification" (knowing it can be abused), either in terms of appellation/classification (1er Cru) or cellaring (Reserva) as it can tell me what the producer think it's like according to some quasi-objective definition and not just the marketing departments latest impulse.


I totally agree with you that classification makes sense..! (Perhaps my thread title was a too provocative). The podcast also mentions that not all regions of Rioja use as much oak as they tend to do in Rioja Alta. In Rioja Alavesa, for example, they seem to apply less oak to their wine, so there the classification requirements would be more applicable...



DoubleD1969 -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/26/2024 5:57:22 AM)

Rioja Alta seems to understand their markets. I may be making a generalization, but the words "Riserva", "Reserva", "Reserve", and others carry a connotation in the US that is the best or have a higher quality than similar products without those words in the label. Therefore US consumers are more willing to pay a higher price whereas Spanish customers are smarter in the sense that they just want a cocktail or wine in a bar or wine in their food and don't care much for oaky wines.



MB1991 -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/26/2024 7:25:13 AM)

Just a classic case of product positioning. If the Ardanza was marketed as a Gran Reserva, people would question why they'd pay so much more for the 890 or 904 for a "similar" wine from the same producer. To maintain price tiers, a ton of companies in every space artificially lower "quality" or features via marketing to drive product hierarchy.



BenG -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/26/2024 8:25:06 AM)

I would call it false advertising. If I tasted it, I would probably think "Wow, their Crianza is so much better than the Crianza from other producers - I'm gonna buy their Reserva!"



MB1991 -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/26/2024 10:48:03 AM)

And they'll be very happy you do, because you just bought up into a riserva that costs more from the same producer where they make more margin $ per bottle purchased. Marketing working as expected....



KPB -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/26/2024 12:16:39 PM)

I kind of like the answer he gave. They aren't "below" the required thresholds -- but instead are doing a wine with more than the required aging and oak treatment, yet deliberately offering it at a less prestigious naming point to align with their market. In a similar sense, if the speed limit is 65 I am illegal when I drive 72, but I am legal if I drive 62. Anything below 65 is still legal (down to some minimum, I suppose).

Here is a story that comes closer (I think) to what troubles you. When Pegau sells their reserve CDP, they recommend holding it for some years to let it integrate and mature. Many people don't do this, so they introduced Cuvee Laurence which starts with the identical wine, then holds it in oak one extra year. The oak is sufficiently porous that this can force a degree of aging-like character without the normal wait for the wine to age in bottle.

So here you have the identical wine, in fact, bottled under two labels with the only difference being an extra year in oak. Nonetheless, the price doubles -- Cuvee Laurence is marketed as a luxury wine, and commands a premium.



Ivanidea -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/26/2024 3:39:02 PM)

One bodega we visited in Rioja (I forget which one) told us that they have a quota for each classification, and if they produce more, they bottle and label it the next designation down, which explains why sometimes a Reserva is as good as a Gran Reserva. I suspect these bottles are kept locally and not exported though. I wouldn't be surprised if some bodegas bottle them as Seleccion De Familia. I need to revisit and brush up on my Rioja knowledge.



penguinoid -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/27/2024 1:29:59 AM)

Yes, I guess it makes sense if you think of the requirements as minimums that producers are allowed to exceed. If it's the producer's youngest wine on the market, it might make sense to market it as a crianza.

This bit initially confused me though:
quote:

ORIGINAL: mutwonmax
According to him they do so because otherwise they would loose business in the bars, where it‘s customary for people to order Crianza.

If I saw a riserva on a wine list at a good price, I'd be tempted to order it rather than refuse it because it's not labelled Crianza. However, I've noticed many bars here in Italy don't actually have menus, so ordering is a "fun" game of "guess what we have"[1]. Maybe it's the same in Spain?

[1] Which is mildly irritating if you're not a local and not good at guessing [8|]



nwinther -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/27/2024 2:39:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DoubleD1969

Rioja Alta seems to understand their markets. I may be making a generalization, but the words "Riserva", "Reserva", "Reserve", and others carry a connotation in the US that is the best or have a higher quality than similar products without those words in the label. Therefore US consumers are more willing to pay a higher price whereas Spanish customers are smarter in the sense that they just want a cocktail or wine in a bar or wine in their food and don't care much for oaky wines.


I have a love/hate relationship with this, as "reserve"-type labelling is often used deceptively, especially when there is no legal framework in play. Sure "reputable" producers can be relied on - but even their lowliest wines would usually be good. So there's that.
And maybe you can tell the difference if you can taste the producers cuvées up against each other, but too often the other cuvées aren't available, or more likely doesn't exist in the first place. All the wine is "reserve".

I think there are private organizations that supposedly guarantee some sort of quality control, that producers can join, but it's my impression that more likely these organizations operate more like obfuscation than anything else.
I'm very much FOR private initiative, but it has to be honest, critical and resolute.



Echinosum -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/27/2024 7:33:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenG

I would call it false advertising. If I tasted it, I would probably think "Wow, their Crianza is so much better than the Crianza from other producers - I'm gonna buy their Reserva!"

All reputable wine producers are into the business of declassifying wine or grapes that could qualify for a higher designation, to maintain the quality of the wine that they do sell at the higher designation. It is universal practice of reputable producers, and it is good for the consumer. Those who sell wine at the highest designation it qualifies for, just to maximise what they can earn from that wine just now, do not do consumers a service.

An Italian wine expert once said to me, do not think of riserva as a superior wine, but as a different wine. A minority of people are willing to pay a premium for the riserva, which is why it (from reputable producers) is sold in smaller quantities and at higher prices. Many people would actually prefer the normale, even if they had waited the 10 years the riserva (from a reputable producer) often needs to become drinkable. I buy both normale and riserva Chiantis, more of the former, because often I would prefer a normale.

The question of false advertising is whether by declassifying a wine to a lower designation, you are misrepresenting it. To the customer in Spain, the point of a crianza is that it is ready for drinking. That is why crianza is popularly drunk in wine bars in Spain. Reservas often need keeping for 10 years to justify their higher price. Whilst you can keep Ardanza for a long time - as looking at the tasting notes for it on CT demonstrate - to me it has been a wine for drinking when it is available. You can lay it down, but mostly it isn't and it isn't the main point of it. So, to the Spanish market at least, it fulfills the role of a crianza. Another market might focus more on the oakiness of reservas vs the fruitiness of crianzas as a distinguishing feature. That seems to be the point to you. And, lo and behold, they are selling it as a reserva in those markets.

Having been to Spain a fair bit, I have been a bit confused at the availability of Ardanza described both as crianza and reserva. I had wondered if those were 2 different wines, or whether it was marketing to try and get more money for it in some markets. Often major producers will sell different wines under the same label in different markets. It's not news either that some will also sell the same wine under different labels in different markets.



penguinoid -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/27/2024 7:46:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum
The question of false advertising is whether by declassifying a wine to a lower designation, you are misrepresenting it. To the customer in Spain, the point of a crianza is that it is ready for drinking. That is why crianza is popularly drunk in wine bars in Spain. Reservas often need keeping for 10 years to justify their higher price. Whilst you can keep Ardanza for a long time - as looking at the tasting notes for it on CT demonstrate - to me it has been a wine for drinking when it is available. You can lay it down, but mostly it isn't and it isn't the main point of it. So, to the Spanish market at least, it fulfills the role of a crianza. Another market might focus more on the oakiness of reservas vs the fruitiness of crianzas as a distinguishing feature. That seems to be the point to you. And, lo and behold, they are selling it as a reserva in those markets.


Ah, that is interesting. It seems there are quite different expectations from the same labels.

Personally, I would expect a crianza to be a younger wine dominated by primary fruit character, whereas I would expect a reserva to be a wine that has had additional ageing and already has more aged, tertiary characters -- but is not necessarily more oaky.

I would assume/hope that the winery would reserve better quality vineyard parcels or barrels for reserva, gran reserva etc, and that they therefore would reward further ageing, but not that they are inherently unready for immediate consumption [8|]. That does make sense, though.

I was wondering about the logic of asking for crianza in preference to riserva, and assumed it was just due to price -- riservas tend to be expensive, and if you can't see the price before you order, it's best to get something you know will be affordable. But clearly the logic is different.

Interesting how differently the same terms are viewed...



forceberry -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/27/2024 4:32:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mutwonmax

quote:

ORIGINAL: nwinther
I totally agree with you that classification makes sense..! (Perhaps my thread title was a too provocative). The podcast also mentions that not all regions of Rioja use as much oak as they tend to do in Rioja Alta. In Rioja Alavesa, for example, they seem to apply less oak to their wine, so there the classification requirements would be more applicable...


From my experience, many wineries in Rioja Alavesa tend to make much oakier wines than those in Rioja Alta.


Sure, the wineries in Rioja Alta tend to age longer, because many older wineries are located there; they have the size, the cellars and enough capital to do that. There are lots of smaller, newer producers in Rioja Alavesa. However, I've seen that many producers in Rioja Alta use a lot more older oak - often ancient, neutral oak barrels made from American oak - whereas new French oak barriques seem to be much more in common in Rioja Alavesa. So even if the wines are aged for a longer time in oak in Rioja Alta, they often are pretty classically styled and not at all oaky - R. LdH Viña Tondonia Gran Reserva a prime example of a wine aged for 10 years in oak, yet not showing any oaky aromatics - whereas I've tasted lots of red from Rioja Alavesa that have been aged for only 12-15 months in barriques, yet they've been massively oaky. So it really isn't that straightforward to say that "they seem to apply less oak to their wine" in Rioja Alavesa.

(And R. LdH is another excellent historical producer making wines that greatly exceed the minimum aging requirements - their entry-level Cubillo Crianza is aged much longer than most Reservas in the market and the Reserva versions of Viña Tondonia and Viña Bosconia could pass as Gran Reservas with flying colors!)



mutwonmax -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/28/2024 11:24:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: forceberry

quote:

ORIGINAL: mutwonmax

quote:

ORIGINAL: nwinther
I totally agree with you that classification makes sense..! (Perhaps my thread title was a too provocative). The podcast also mentions that not all regions of Rioja use as much oak as they tend to do in Rioja Alta. In Rioja Alavesa, for example, they seem to apply less oak to their wine, so there the classification requirements would be more applicable...


From my experience, many wineries in Rioja Alavesa tend to make much oakier wines than those in Rioja Alta.


Sure, the wineries in Rioja Alta tend to age longer, because many older wineries are located there; they have the size, the cellars and enough capital to do that. There are lots of smaller, newer producers in Rioja Alavesa. However, I've seen that many producers in Rioja Alta use a lot more older oak - often ancient, neutral oak barrels made from American oak - whereas new French oak barriques seem to be much more in common in Rioja Alavesa. So even if the wines are aged for a longer time in oak in Rioja Alta, they often are pretty classically styled and not at all oaky - R. LdH Viña Tondonia Gran Reserva a prime example of a wine aged for 10 years in oak, yet not showing any oaky aromatics - whereas I've tasted lots of red from Rioja Alavesa that have been aged for only 12-15 months in barriques, yet they've been massively oaky. So it really isn't that straightforward to say that "they seem to apply less oak to their wine" in Rioja Alavesa.

(And R. LdH is another excellent historical producer making wines that greatly exceed the minimum aging requirements - their entry-level Cubillo Crianza is aged much longer than most Reservas in the market and the Reserva versions of Viña Tondonia and Viña Bosconia could pass as Gran Reservas with flying colors!)

quote:

Sure, the wineries in Rioja Alta tend to age longer, because many older wineries are located there; they have the size, the cellars and enough capital to do that. There are lots of smaller, newer producers in Rioja Alavesa. However, I've seen that many producers in Rioja Alta use a lot more older oak - often ancient, neutral oak barrels made from American oak - whereas new French oak barriques seem to be much more in common in Rioja Alavesa. So even if the wines are aged for a longer time in oak in Rioja Alta, they often are pretty classically styled and not at all oaky - R. LdH Viña Tondonia Gran Reserva a prime example of a wine aged for 10 years in oak, yet not showing any oaky aromatics - whereas I've tasted lots of red from Rioja Alavesa that have been aged for only 12-15 months in barriques, yet they've been massively oaky. So it really isn't that straightforward to say that "they seem to apply less oak to their wine" in Rioja Alavesa.


That's quite possible. I probably should have phrased "less barrel time" rather than "less oak". After all I was only trying to make an assumption as to why the classification system in Rioja still serves a good purpose even though some bodegas keep their wine in barrels much longer than classification would require them to...



forceberry -> RE: Rioja Crianza, Reserva,... who cares?! (3/29/2024 4:09:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mutwonmaxI was only trying to make an assumption as to why the classification system in Rioja still serves a good purpose even though some bodegas keep their wine in barrels much longer than classification would require them to...


Very, very few traditionalists do. And probably none of the modernists.

Most producers keep their wines more or less the minimum required time or a little bit more and that's it. LRA and RLdH are a few exceptional producers that go over and beyond what the requirements call for. They make the wines the way they have always made and the appellation regulations for the required oak-aging times are more of an afterthought to them.



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