Wine and Heat - a study in endurance

CellarTracker Main Site

Wine and Heat - a study in endurance

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Cellar Talk] >> General Discussion >> Wine and Heat - a study in endurance

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/13/2011 8:51:45 PM

Hollowine

Posts: 7251
Joined: 7/25/2008
From: Hood River, OR
Status: offline

So I know we all fret about wine shipments in the heat, and provenance of older wines. I do it just as much as anyone else. Yet thought I'd share an interesting case with you.

Tonight I opened a 1995 Beringer Cabernet Sauvignon Private Reserve...a pretty decent bottle of wine, I believe the top bottling from Beringer in the Ed Sbragia days. I know that unfortunately this bottle was subjected to a summer of 90-100 degree days laying on it's side in a cupboard. When I received the couple of bottles, some had even been seeping out the cork. I haven't opened one in years, but tonight it won the pick.

Mid shoulder fill, cork stained to the top, capsule stuck to the neck. Color was good, nose a little muted but good, and the palate is right where I expect 15 year old Napa Cab to be. This is singing and not a hint of wear and tear.

So this harkens back to other posts I've seen about people doing experiments with one bottle in a car trunk for a whole year with a control bottle out of the cellar. Or the bottle you buy sitting in the window of the wine shop in France. I think wine is a lot more durable than we give it credit for. As others have said, do we really expect all of those Pre-1960s bottles to have come over on refrigerated vessels?

So are we too hung up about this? If wine leaves a shipper at 60 degrees in styrofoam, and travels less than 48 hours in temperatures average of 75 with maybe a daytime peak of 90, do we really expect the wine to "cook off?" ...and how much of seepage from wines we see are a result of altitude/atmospheric pressure differentials rather than temperature induced volume expansion?

After tonight's evidence, I'm not going to let my entire guard down, but I'm not going to be afraid of trying the occasional bottle that looks less than ideal.

Post #: 1

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/13/2011 10:15:14 PM

ckinv368

Posts: 985
Joined: 3/15/2011
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline

That's really interesting---for a mid-shoulder fill, I would have expected the absolute worst from a supposed "heat damaged" bottle.

(in reply to Hollowine)

Post #: 2

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/13/2011 11:27:34 PM

oskiwawa

Posts: 2258
Joined: 2/16/2008
From: Austin TX
Status: offline

I put myself in the it is better not to do it but all in all the fretting about a day or two of 80 degree type temp is over-rated.

< Message edited by oskiwawa -- 10/13/2011 11:28:28 PM >

(in reply to ckinv368)

Post #: 3

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/14/2011 2:44:57 AM

slaughterer

Posts: 757
Joined: 7/4/2010
From: Frankfurt am Main
Status: offline

Once bought a lot of 1975 Pauillacs that had been sitting out in the sun at 80 deg Fahrenheit for two or three days because of a transport truck crash. They had not been affected by the heat, as I noticed drinking them a few months later. But, probably, if I had waited longer, the heat damage would have showed up. Most experts I have consulted insist that the damages of heat do not show up in wine immediately, but only as it gets older or progresses from the moment of heat damage.

(in reply to oskiwawa)

Post #: 4

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/14/2011 5:27:54 AM

Hollowine

Posts: 7251
Joined: 7/25/2008
From: Hood River, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaughterer

Once bought a lot of 1975 Pauillacs that had been sitting out in the sun at 80 deg Fahrenheit for two or three days because of a transport truck crash. They had not been affected by the heat, as I noticed drinking them a few months later. But, probably, if I had waited longer, the heat damage would have showed up. Most experts I have consulted insist that the damages of heat do not show up in wine immediately, but only as it gets older or progresses from the moment of heat damage.

And that is exactly my point. These bottles were subjected to 85+ heat for at least 2 months, maybe three, at a point 10 years ago. Considering the heat, the seepage, and the time factor, I was not optimistic. I opened it purely out of curiosity, I drank it purely out of astonishment and enjoyment.

< Message edited by Hollowine -- 10/14/2011 5:29:11 AM >

(in reply to slaughterer)

Post #: 5

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/14/2011 7:19:59 AM

thesternowl

Posts: 1782
Joined: 2/5/2011
From: Omaha, NE
Status: offline

This is an interesting topic. I'd love to hear some more real-world experience on this topic.

< Message edited by thesternowl -- 10/14/2011 7:20:20 AM >

_____________________________

esse quam videri

(in reply to Hollowine)

Post #: 6

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/14/2011 7:44:38 AM

wadcorp

Posts: 9335
Joined: 10/29/2008
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hollowine

So this harkens back to other posts I've seen about people doing experiments with one bottle in a car trunk for a whole year with a control bottle out of the cellar.

So shaken, not stirred?

.

_____________________________

"Wine is light held together by moisture."
— Galileo Galilei, physicist and astronomer (1564-1642)

(in reply to Hollowine)

Post #: 7

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/14/2011 8:14:47 AM

Old Doug

Posts: 8279
Joined: 5/12/2011
From: Atlanta, Georgia, US
Status: offline

Great thread, Hollowine. I've had some wine, reds and whites alike, stored in a sister-in-law's basement for 6 years. A comparitively cool, almost always dark room, but this is still Atlanta, Georgia, USA, and the air-conditioning has broken down at least once, and they were at times stingy as far as even turning it on. I'd say the wine has been to 85 Fahrenheit/29 Celsius a couple times, and that the average temperature is 73/23, a good bit over the ideal... 56/13? We've consumed some of the wine all along, and no detectable damage yet. Although, I wonder - just lately did have one red that had a "caramel" aspect to it, possibly "Maderized"? Frankly, I liked it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaughterer

Once bought a lot of 1975 Pauillacs that had been sitting out in the sun at 80 deg Fahrenheit for two or three days because of a transport truck crash. They had not been affected by the heat, as I noticed drinking them a few months later. But, probably, if I had waited longer, the heat damage would have showed up. Most experts I have consulted insist that the damages of heat do not show up in wine immediately, but only as it gets older or progresses from the moment of heat damage.

Fascinating.... What mysterious wonders are the chemical processes of wine!

If ever I see a truckload of Pauillacs dumped by the side of the road, I'm going to stop and help clean up.

Never have had the experience. Decades ago, came upon traffic at a standstill, outside a highway tunnel in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Heard something on the CB radio about a hog truck.... Hog truck overturned. Nothing much happened for a few minutes, then there were young pigs everywhere, 300 or 400 of them, with police in hot pursuit. Pigs on either side of the road, pigs in the median, pigs trotting between lanes of traffic....

(in reply to slaughterer)

Post #: 8

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/14/2011 10:13:18 AM

ob2s

Posts: 1689
Joined: 1/30/2007
From: SW Portland Ore
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Doug
Although, I wonder - just lately did have one red that had a "caramel" aspect to it, possibly "Maderized"? Frankly, I liked it.

I'm going to leave a 2.75 buck chuck in the car and see if it will turn into a Madeira !

_____________________________

German Wine ? see GermanWines.us | water nourishes the body, wine nourishes the soul

(in reply to Old Doug)

Post #: 9

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/14/2011 10:49:44 AM

thesternowl

Posts: 1782
Joined: 2/5/2011
From: Omaha, NE
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ob2s

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Doug
Although, I wonder - just lately did have one red that had a "caramel" aspect to it, possibly "Maderized"? Frankly, I liked it.

I'm going to leave a 2.75 buck chuck in the car and see if it will turn into a Madeira !

I hope that works out for you.

_____________________________

esse quam videri

(in reply to ob2s)

Post #: 10

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/14/2011 1:38:39 PM

mclancy10006

Posts: 4510
Joined: 3/19/2007
From: Cape Cod, MA & Bellevue, WA
Status: offline

Probably need to add some moonshine in it first to get the right 'balance'.

2 buck chuck and shine the drink for modern times, ouch...

Mark

(in reply to thesternowl)

Post #: 11

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/14/2011 1:47:55 PM

musedir

Posts: 23493
Joined: 2/25/2010
From: At 2534ft in Asheville near Royal Pines
Status: offline

I think the Chuck is "brewed" for such tests.

_____________________________

"Fan the sinnking flame of hilarity with the wing of friendship; and pass the rosy wine." Charles Dickens.

(in reply to mclancy10006)

Post #: 12

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/14/2011 5:48:41 PM

cgsihler

Posts: 123
Joined: 1/26/2011
From: Las Vegas, NV
Status: offline

I think people over-react to the way wine is stored. Ideally we'd have nothing but properly stored wines, but this is the real world. I don't think 70-80 degrees is going to destroy wine, I worry when it's being exposed to 90 plus degrees for hours or more. People always ask how its been stored, but honestly it's a crap shoot, you can buy it direct from the winery and you still don't know 100% what happened to the wine between the time it was bottled and the time you took possession. Hope for the best, try to minimize your losses, but if you get too hung up on it, you're going to miss out a lot more often than not.

(in reply to musedir)

Post #: 13

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/15/2011 9:21:51 AM

BobMilton

Posts: 2877
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: Newbury Park, CA
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: cgsihler

I think people over-react to the way wine is stored. Ideally we'd have nothing but properly stored wines, but this is the real world. I don't think 70-80 degrees is going to destroy wine, I worry when it's being exposed to 90 plus degrees for hours or more. People always ask how its been stored, but honestly it's a crap shoot, you can buy it direct from the winery and you still don't know 100% what happened to the wine between the time it was bottled and the time you took possession. Hope for the best, try to minimize your losses, but if you get too hung up on it, you're going to miss out a lot more often than not.

Agreed!

(in reply to cgsihler)

Post #: 14

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/15/2011 2:02:23 PM

winediamondswa

Posts: 89
Joined: 3/22/2010
From: Bothell, WA
Status: offline

i have to agree with you hollowine. recently i have been able to purchase some wines from a private collection. these wines have been stored passively, around 70 degrees consistently, but kept away from light and vibration and otherwise stored well. most of the wines i have picked up have been in the 10-20+ year old range, some higher quality (lewis cellars, heitz, two hands ect.), some more moderate quality. all with good fills into the neck, and freely spinning capsules. i have opened 5-10 of these bottles in the last few months, and every one has been in perfect condition for thier ages. so, i have been wondering about the importance of storage as well. i'm not giving up my coolers by any means, but i may be a little less uptight in the future.

tonight i will be opening a 1994 beringer knights valley from this group, and i hope for another great experience.

(in reply to Hollowine)

Post #: 15

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/15/2011 7:58:41 PM

Hollowine

Posts: 7251
Joined: 7/25/2008
From: Hood River, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: winediamondswa

tonight i will be opening a 1994 beringer knights valley from this group, and i hope for another great experience.

I had a bottle of the '94 Beringer KV that I stored in the passive area of my cellar at about 68 degrees since purchase. Drank it about a year ago, it was awesome given the QPR. Hope yours turns out as well!

(in reply to winediamondswa)

Post #: 16

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/16/2011 9:45:27 AM

cgsihler

Posts: 123
Joined: 1/26/2011
From: Las Vegas, NV
Status: offline

I think it's also interesting to point out that these small wine fridges(30-50 bottles) are a relatively new development. You didn't see these at Home Depot, Target, and other common places 15-20 years ago. I'd guess that a large number of people stored their wines passively prior to the 1995-2000 time frame.

(in reply to Hollowine)

Post #: 17

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/16/2011 2:00:30 PM

Sarastro

Posts: 237
Joined: 12/31/2010
From: Milano - Italy
Status: offline

I have always been told by some masters of cellar I know in the Langhe that the best mix for a perfect preservation and evolution of the wine are, in order of importance:

Darkness
No vibrations
"wet" cork - bottle laying
Humidity (the most the better... if it's very high just protect the labels...)
Constant or slow changing temperature
Low temperature (around 54 f° or 12-13 C°)

That said I keep my precious bottles in a Wine fridge at 55F° (13C°) and 75% humidity and the rest in a passive cellar that slowly varies from 63 F° (17 C°) to 72F (22C°) and humidity between 60% to 85% - both always dark and eith no vibrations. The bottles in my cellar are kept in Styrofoam shipping boxes to minimize vibrations and temp variations.

I made a few comparisons between the same wines kept for a couple of years in the fridge and in the cellar... and found no apparent differences even though I really think I will detect differences after longer cellaring.

That said I fished out an interesting experiment made in 2010 by a member of the Gambero rosso forum in Italy:

Three bottle of Barbaresco (Pertinace Vigneto Nervo of the solid and beautiful vintage 2004) kept for 2(!) years in the following conditions:

#1 Cellared in a 15 to 20 C° with slow changes, laying
#2 At home, standing on a shelf, with temp varying from 23C° to tops of 38C°
#3 Kept laying in the car, temperatures from -10 to 60C, vibrations and the full package of shocks - in the end the cork was half out and leaking

the three bottles were tasted by a good number of wine lovers with different backgrounds.

The results were surprising:

1° : Bottle 2 (71% of votes)
2° : Bottle 1 (71% of votes)
3° : Bottle 3 (86% of votes)

and the bottles were....:

bottle 2: car
bottle 1: cellar
bottle 3: home

The conclusions were that the bottle in the car, the winner, had evolved faster than the one in the cellar and for this reason it was more enjoyable (expecially considering that the 2004 is an excellent vintage for Barbaresco bat with powerful tannins and vivid acidity).

The bottle from the cellar was still young with agressive tannins, .... and for these reasons wasn't evolved enough to be enjoyed fully

Bottle from home was slightly overmature and evolved but nontheless drinkable and enjoyable.

If someone wants to read in italian (or just watch the photos): http://forum.gamberorosso.it/viewtopic.php?p=802019&sid=806efbc4a46fb892afac25b20cfc6683

My personal conclusions after this interesting, funny and surprising test is that i will keep my VIP bottles in the fridge but for sure I won't be worried for those in my passive cellar... and that solid wines can stand some misshandle with grace... it even helps them evolve faster which can be useful: we are not always ready to wait 10 or 20 years before enjoying our latest purchases!

Of course the evolution of the wine in hard conditions can be very fast and the final result won't be in the very same league with a slow and controlled cellar evolution but it won't be so dramatic either... especially with a solid nebbiolo based wine and quite well made

Of course I won't change my cellaring habits BUT the results of the test were interesting indeed.

Giuliano

< Message edited by Sarastro -- 10/16/2011 2:07:26 PM >

(in reply to ob2s)

Post #: 18

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/16/2011 2:31:04 PM

Tanatastic

Posts: 645
Joined: 7/7/2011
From: UK
Status: offline

Sarastro, I'm hoping whoever told you that knew what they were talking about, because 1-5 of the prerequisites pretty much describes my passive cellar.

Just out of interest, did any of them elaborate on the moisture issue? I know from bitter experience that it destroys labels very quickly, but seeing as I buy my wines to consume, its a price I'm willing to pay if its good for the wines. After all I can tag them. But doesn't there come a point where excess moisture brings its own problems to cork?

(in reply to Sarastro)

Post #: 19

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/16/2011 3:41:22 PM

Sarastro

Posts: 237
Joined: 12/31/2010
From: Milano - Italy
Status: offline

Hi Tanatastic

I confirm you that two different masters of cellars, one in Barolo from a bigger and well known producer and one from Barbaresco from a smaller producer - who, incidentally, recently got some very nice scores nationaly - made exactly same list of pre requisites from most to less important... of course ideal is to be on par on all five! i ask them because i have always been worried for having a passive cellar a bit too warm even though stable.. and the wine fridge can't take everything.

What striked me was that for them the temperature wasn't the first point and that having slow changes is much more important that the temp itself... better to have always 70F° than to have fast changes from 58 to 65...

Regarding the moisture issue their point was: on one side of the cork you have 100% humidity so if you want to minimize air exchange and seepage you should have the closer possible value to 100% on the other side.

A humidity over 55% is ok, over 75% is ideal and over 85% it is almost a seal.

It is very important not to have too fast changes in humidity because if the cork dries out too fast and then moisten up again it won't get back to do a proper seal... it simply looses its elastic properties.

As for the labels the point is that over 80% you risk to see them fall apart. If you plan to sell a bottle or if labels are important for you (at least to recognize the bottle you are choosing

) than seal them with some cellophane to protect them - It is what I'm doing.

If too high humidity cause some mold on cork you shouldn't worry too much... as I said... a little green on the cork, no worries, but if you see a touch of red (wine) on top.. better to prepare the cork screwer!

This is what i learned from them... and from my experience it sounds right. Just my personal opinion (and nose in the glas) of course

quote:

Darkness
No vibrations
"wet" cork - bottle laying
Humidity (the most the better... if it's very high just protect the labels...)
Constant or slow changing temperature
Low temperature (around 54 f° or 12-13 C°)

(in reply to Tanatastic)

Post #: 20

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/16/2011 5:57:59 PM

SteveG

Posts: 788
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: Central Ohio
Status: offline

All these comments on humidity sound to me like an endorsement of tight capsules and various wax/plastic coverings.

FWIW, I use a small closet in our basement, 8 feet high with about 6.5 below grade, and poured concrete walls on 3 sides. Temperature varies (slowly, I would think) from perhaps 55-70 degrees, winter to mid-summer, and of course it is dark and free of vibrations (we are on a very quiet street). I see no real reason to worry about my wine, although perhaps some with potential lives of 40 years might only last half so long (great for me, I'm 56!).

(in reply to Hollowine)

Post #: 21

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/17/2011 1:34:45 PM

Sarastro

Posts: 237
Joined: 12/31/2010
From: Milano - Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteveG

All these comments on humidity sound to me like an endorsement of tight capsules and various wax/plastic coverings.

FWIW, I use a small closet in our basement, 8 feet high with about 6.5 below grade, and poured concrete walls on 3 sides. Temperature varies (slowly, I would think) from perhaps 55-70 degrees, winter to mid-summer, and of course it is dark and free of vibrations (we are on a very quiet street). I see no real reason to worry about my wine, although perhaps some with potential lives of 40 years might only last half so long (great for me, I'm 56!).

The comments i got on humidity were from two very traditional producers who would never use tight caps, wax or so... and i can tell you that it is hard to find someone more "traditional" than a tradional Barolo producer... butthinking about my opinion is that humidity has become more of an issue in recent years because a lort of people are keeping their wines in overheated homes were humidity drops to very low levels.

Natural cork has the special characteristics to be able to "manage" correct oxygen access to the wine for dozens of years... the issue with humidity is simply one... if the cork gets a humidity shock it will never recover its elasticity again...

When there were less central heating houses or bad wine fridges non controlling humidity the problem was not felt so much... now it has become more important due to bigger challanges to the cork.

That said the acceptable humidity range is so ample, from 50% to 90%, that in most cases its not a problem.

Btw, you closet sounds more than ok in my opinion.... as for the potential life of some wines it's an argument that sometimes worries me.. I'm 43 and I'm starting to find the first wines which survive to me.. better to find soon a good way to accelerate the aging process

(in reply to SteveG)

Post #: 22

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/17/2011 2:12:03 PM

recotte

Posts: 6873
Joined: 1/19/2011
Status: offline

For more real world examples, you should get Colonel Lawrence to weigh in. I believe some/a lot of his Bordeaux has been around the world a few times in cargo containers....

_____________________________

The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to Sarastro)

Post #: 23

RE: Wine and Heat - a study in endurance - 10/24/2011 11:08:18 PM

pdemaio

Posts: 285
Joined: 8/17/2010
Status: offline

With the huricane knocking out electricity for days during the heat of summer this year all up and down teh eastern seaboard, we're all pretty likely to find out what heat does to wine longevity...

PDQ

(in reply to recotte)

Post #: 24