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2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 1:04:31 PM   
AfleetAlex

 

Posts: 122
Joined: 7/31/2017
From: St. Paul, MN
Status: offline 		I spent the better part of last year studying Bordeaux, so I'm still pretty clueless about Burgundy. I'm looking for a few diamonds in the rough as investment bottles. Please advise.

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 1:14:51 PM   
CranBurgundy

 

Posts: 8272
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From: Philly / South Joizey
Status: offline 		Investment?



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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 1:23:13 PM   
mclancy10006

 

Posts: 4502
Joined: 3/19/2007
From: Cape Cod, MA & Bellevue, WA
Status: offline 		Investment bottles in Burgundy cost $200 to ship. :)

Might need to move that $200/bottle price point north if you want investment grade burgs. The list is simple with Grand Cru monopoles all over it. And buy investment I mean buy at release and sell at auction later for a profit. The hard part is getting an allocation as everyone who does not drink them wants to do this and there are to few acres of lands to squabble over.

That said if you want wines where your current investment of $200 today pays of personal returns of enjoyment 20 years from now you may well find options in this forum.

-Mark

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 2:16:52 PM   
S1

 

Posts: 14825
Joined: 11/12/2011
From: Wandering between Coastal SC and South FL
Status: offline 		Investment?
Start with a large(er) fortune.

Buying to lay down and drink many years from now?
I could give LOTS of recs.

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 2:32:26 PM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4648
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		So you are basically asking who the next Leroy will be? Good question! I wish I knew, too...

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 2:48:39 PM   
ericindc

 

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If you can find a up and coming burg producer that will get hot you'll make money, but its hard to find as everyone is looking for the next hot producer.

Honestly, after the last few year of increases, I am not sure any burgundy will increase as much as in the past. Will DRC RC 2015 be 30k in the secondary market in 20 years? Will Groffier Bonnes Mares released at $300 be worth $1000 in 20? Unlikely. I dont see much more than 100% increase (in constant dollars) for any burgs at 15-20 yrs. Obviously, if you are in your 20s,and can hold a wine for 30-50 years, you will see greater returns. But you might also see a crash in the market



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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 4:36:35 PM   
AfleetAlex

 

Posts: 122
Joined: 7/31/2017
From: St. Paul, MN
Status: offline 		Thanks for the advise, guys. I'll stick to Bordeaux.

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 4:43:47 PM   
Smaragd

 

Posts: 719
Joined: 2/3/2017
From: New York City
Status: offline 		I gotta say, Alex, I read your signature and I'm worried about you. So much good wine is to be drunk between approximately now and before your kids manage to get their act together and pop corks. We all love our kids, but it's time you made some shorter range goals. :)

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 5:27:40 PM   
AfleetAlex

 

Posts: 122
Joined: 7/31/2017
From: St. Paul, MN
Status: offline 		I have some 2005/2009/2010 Bordeaux's and a few 2010 Brunello's in the cellar, tucked away for special occasions. A Flight Paramedic's salary doesn't offer a huge budget for wine. I drink a lot of Riesling, and local wines.

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 5:39:55 PM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

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Status: offline 		I'll sell you a Burgundy recommendation for $150. 2 for $250.

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 6:07:42 PM   
CranBurgundy

 

Posts: 8272
Joined: 1/5/2016
From: Philly / South Joizey
Status: offline 		We drink a lot of Riesling too. There are a bunch of Mosel producers offering world class wine for $30-ish a bottle.

I'd think you'd do better speculating on who the next hot Napa Cab name will be. It costs too much to play in the Blue Chip Burgundy market.

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 6:08:23 PM   
AfleetAlex

 

Posts: 122
Joined: 7/31/2017
From: St. Paul, MN
Status: offline 		HaHa I'll take 3!

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 6:52:05 PM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AfleetAlex

HaHa I'll take 3!


Third one is FREE! Avoid Maison Ilan futures.

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 9:02:12 PM   
AfleetAlex

 

Posts: 122
Joined: 7/31/2017
From: St. Paul, MN
Status: offline 		Yeah, Ray Ray has been put in the corner.

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Post #: 14
RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/15/2018 9:04:33 PM   
jmcmchi

 

Posts: 3206
Joined: 8/6/2013
Status: offline 		I'm with the folks who advise caution.

For investment, it's simple enough; go for the big names and do whatever it takes to guarantee provenance for future buyers. There are plenty of merchants who will advise and manage the investment for a fee. Be prepared for a rollercoaster if the central banks drop QE policies and asset prices generally get hit. You could do the same with artwork or stocks, with the same risks

Personally, I buy to drink and enjoy. I'm happy to enjoy, and think I paid $x ten-fifteen years ago for, something that is now selling for $10x, but generally find that I would be vastly disappointed with the wine if I had paid the $10x

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Post #: 15
RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/16/2018 5:08:02 AM   
hamishwm

 

Posts: 395
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: Bordeaux, Burgundy and Champagne.
Status: offline 		Interesting conundrum.
Do you go by the village or by the producer?
Probably best to follow the producer, as the vineyards are generally so split up.
There are so many exciting young burgundian growers making small scale delicious wines, as well as a few sleeping giants.
I am going to be in Burgundy several times this year tasting and touring and I am thinking exactly the same thing as you AfleetAlex.
I have a decent handle on Bordeaux having lived, breathed, traded, tasted and slept my way around the area over the last thirty years.
In Burgundy I have favourites......Domaine Lafarge, Taupenot Merme, Jacques Prieur, Armand Rousseau, but I want to expand my knowledge and list of up and coming Domaines.

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Post #: 16
RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/16/2018 8:30:38 AM   
klaus3974

 

Posts: 189
Joined: 7/21/2016
From: Living in Geneva, Switzerland
Status: offline 		Soon we will have post asking recommendations for Burgundy wines below $100,000.
Crazy world.

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Post #: 17
RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/16/2018 11:02:48 AM   
Claude Bizon

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 1/5/2018
Status: offline 		Alex, there is no need to spend a fortune to have fun when you love wine! We must leave high-end wines to billionaires (There may be some on this forum? Sorry!), envious, credulous people. The high-end wines have a very poor quality / price ratio.
In France, we have excellent wines, in all regions, which are worth 17 or 18/20 or more (see my tasting notes). Me too, I still have great appellations in my cellar but I do not buy more: too expensive!

< Message edited by Claude Bizon -- 1/16/2018 11:05:46 AM >

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/16/2018 11:08:43 AM   
Claude Bizon

 

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Joined: 1/5/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jmcmchi

Personally, I buy to drink and enjoy. I'm happy to enjoy, and think I paid $x ten-fifteen years ago for, something that is now selling for $10x, but generally find that I would be vastly disappointed with the wine if I had paid the $10x



I agree with you!

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Post #: 19
RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/16/2018 1:26:26 PM   
RobRah

 

Posts: 825
Joined: 4/2/2009
From: London, UK
Status: offline 		Olivier Bernstein Chambertin GC and Clos-de-Beze? Though that's already out of the price bracket - surely if he sticks around these will soar further?

Grivot's premier crus in Vosne?

< Message edited by RobRah -- 1/16/2018 1:28:19 PM >

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/16/2018 5:22:06 PM   
tubulus

 

Posts: 24
Joined: 4/27/2016
Status: offline 		Price increases in 15/16 have been breathtaking. Grivot boudots has gone from roughly $110 for the 14 to $150+ for the 16. 15 has gotten great press so it could hold a premium, too early to tell (I think) for 16s, but yields are so low it doesn't matter. It's just hard to see how 10 years from now these vintages will still hold such premiums over recent decent vintages 12-14.

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/17/2018 10:30:24 AM   
Vietty

 

Posts: 159
Joined: 4/6/2013
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Read this article and thought about this post.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-17/goldman-s-solomon-said-to-be-victim-of-1-2-million-wine-theft

"Solomon has been collecting wine for decades, according to the person, and accumulated many investment-grade bottles. The seven bottles of Domaine de la Romanee-Conti were stolen in October 2016, prosecutors say, and had previously been purchased for $133,650."

That's how much you need to spend for "investment-grade bottles".

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/17/2018 11:08:03 AM   
mclancy10006

 

Posts: 4502
Joined: 3/19/2007
From: Cape Cod, MA & Bellevue, WA
Status: offline 		Well you need to get on the Wilson Daniels allocation and buy them for a lot less than that and then sell them for that price.

-M

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/17/2018 4:25:40 PM   
S1

 

Posts: 14825
Joined: 11/12/2011
From: Wandering between Coastal SC and South FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mclancy10006

Well you need to get on the Wilson Daniels allocation and buy them for a lot less than that and then sell them for that price.

-M


Yep
Good luck

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/18/2018 9:25:13 AM   
Robert Pavlovich

 

Posts: 1955
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From: West Los Angeles
Status: offline 		I'm surprised there's enough wine to sell in 16'

Finding myself hitting on whites more often than with reds. May focus on whites in 16' as a result. Some names I'm following are Morey-Coffinet and Bachelet-Monnot.

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/18/2018 10:16:30 AM   
hankj

 

Posts: 4672
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		Investment grade Burgundy? There's a rumor that every 100th bottle of 2016 Lapierre Beaujolais Nouveau has a Bitcoin code on the cork ...

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/18/2018 11:36:36 AM   
RobRah

 

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From: London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Robert Pavlovich

I'm surprised there's enough wine to sell in 16'



My experience so far is that largely there isn't really. :P

In retrospect I feel chagrin that they opened so many bottles at the various tastings this month.

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/18/2018 12:07:28 PM   
wadcorp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmcmchi

Personally, I buy to drink and enjoy.


Just get the t-shirt.

.


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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/19/2018 5:21:52 AM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4648
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From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		I’m with the I’m in the jmcmchi “camp”, but in fact I have never purchased a bottle that was still in my cellar later and worth 10x what I paid, not once. Obviously, if I had simply held some wines I owned back in the 1985 period, many would have appreciated substantially by now, but because I drink my best wines at peak, in fact I didn’t hold any of those.

So my biggest price increases are perhaps more like 1.5x or 2x. And even those aren’t always smart prices, in the sense that sometimes you have a wine that turned out to be a dud, like the 1998 Bonneaux Cuvée Special (a bizarre Rhône red that came out like boiled Amarone). I owned that and tried it a few times, ultimately used up my three bottles. Awful swill, but Robert Parker kept promising that it would turn the corner, until suddenly he accepted that “something was wrong” with the wine. Yet his high scoring and the rarity of the wine caused the price to more than double by the end. I didn’t sell it, though. Too much hassle.

Those folks with the 10x increases? Very lucky people...

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RE: 2016 Burgundy Recommendations Under $200? - 1/19/2018 5:40:48 AM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4648
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From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		Actually, one more remark. Back when the 1982 Bordeaux were available as futures, Bill Sokolin had a newsletter about investment in wine and he said that due to scarcity and Asian markets emerging, the top wines would all gain 10x in value. By now they have. That was true from the 82 vintage to around 1990,for the top Bordeaux and Burgundy wines, purchased en premieur. Several factors contributed: the euro was about to be introduced so the French Franc traded very low (as did the euro itself, at first after it was introduced), so you had a strong dollar, emergence of Parker as a force driving prices, massive wealth increase in Asia, fine wine perceived as a status symbol. Perfect storm.

Today, the dollar is stable but not poised to surge hugely against the euro, which is also pretty stable. If anything, the European economy seems to be strengthening. Anyhow, no market advantage to leverage your investment.

The Asian markets are huge but fairly stable too, by now. Fewer new collectors emerging, unlike the huge surge we saw back then, when all those new buyers wanted to build wine cellars.

And then Parker has lost his throne, but Antonio hasn’t really taken the same role, so we lack a single market-maker with a very sharp-edged palate. Parker was able to shape things because his fondness for sweet port-like wines resulted in a lot of “surprise” scores, where you had a market aiming for wines that might be quite closed and tannic on release and at best only after a decade or more in the cellar. Parker (and technology, like microoxygenation) were game changers back then. And all those people who loved Coca Cola charging after him... but that can’t happen twice.

So Sokolin nailed it, back then. But that was 1985, and in 2018, the game has changed. Now you would have to find a brilliant young winemaker in an ignored place, like Catalan France, who stumbles on an amazing old vine vineyard and creates some sort of stunning new icon of a wine, like when Pingus emerged out of nowhere, except in a place where there’s no Pingus yet.

Or perhaps a home run in a setting with money and a love for fine wine, but few local wines of that quality level. Oregon, perhaps. Maybe Russia, Hungary, etc. I would bet on Israel, but not for 10x price increases. I can see 2x or 3x, for the top wines. So 10x sets a high bar. Anyhow, some place like that, with some magic combination of factors.

Global warming could be the best bet to really shake things up. Fingerlakes, for example, could do what you see in Oregon with Cayuse, but only if the winters moderate and the summers become a bit longer and more consistently drier. Could happen. Meanwhile, Napa really dodged a bullet on the drought period. Will the Napa and Sonoma wines still be leading ten years from now, if trends continue? Bet on that and you might get 10x... or bet wrong, and get 0x...

< Message edited by KPB -- 1/19/2018 11:37:55 AM >

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