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Vibration and Wine - 5/11/2018 9:51:48 AM

DavidHaskell

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Hello All,

I am trying to understand what about vibration affects wine in storage.
Living in South Florida, I have to use some kind of cooling system that does vibrate some compered to a basement cellar.

Specifically does anyone know what frequency is most problematic?
What G force amplitude would be harmful at said frequency?

Has anyone tried using anti vibration material such as Sorbothane to dampen vibration?

What happens to wine exposed to vibration vs not exposed to any?

Considering putting accelerometers on some bottle just to gain data.
Benchmarks of a refrigerator compressor vs a garage door opener or washing machine,etc.

Any help would be great!

Thanks,
David

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/11/2018 11:08:49 AM

ChrisinCowiche

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I'm curious to see responses to this, but my initial totally non-scientific impression is unless you are in a space with constant machinery creating excessive vibration, there is no impact to the wine. What I believe some vibration could do is slow the settling of solids in a wine bottle, but if you are shaking enough constantly to keep things in the wine bottle stirred into suspension, there would be other structural issues I'd worry about.

The hum of a cooling unit on a wine frig should meet this same standard and provide no harm, again in my unscientific undata-based, opinion. If a motor is vibrating enough to create problems with the wine, it is about to die and needs a filter change or other maintenance.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/11/2018 11:49:48 AM

recotte

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I seem to recall hearing that prolonged exposure to vibration accelerates the aging process. A quick google search turned up some research on various effects:

http://blog.vinfolio.com/2016/09/13/does-vibration-ruin-wine/

This one you have to pay for, but appears to have actual scientific methodology applied:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889157508001178

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/11/2018 12:57:59 PM

DoubleD1969

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I’m too cheap to pay. What’s their methodology? In the Vinfolio article, there is no scientific data. My take: Large temperature swings are your biggest worry as well as exposure to high temps when they are in transit from the producer to negociant to distributor to retailer to you.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/11/2018 1:40:58 PM

KPB

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Why would that cause the bottles to vibrate? The issue is with shaking that causes sediment to stir up, not noise in the room.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/11/2018 5:06:55 PM

jmcmchi

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Interesting discussion. I recall occasional, but not universal, references to avoiding vibration for long term storage, but do not recall seeing any clarification/explanation of the sort that was given to considerations of temperature or light.

I do recall seeing wine stored under the arches/vaults of London railway lines....no idea what the impact of vibration from trains was

Personally I was always more concerned about keeping pets' tails and tiny feet away from stacked bottles

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/11/2018 5:36:58 PM

KPB

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I actually do think that if a wine was stored in a device that vibrates like a fridge, letting it sit in a very quiet environment for a day before serving might be a good idea.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/11/2018 6:17:43 PM

mtpisgah

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You need to line the cooled area with vibranium, it is not cheap but it is plentiful if you can make your way to Wakanda.

Seriously, what is the level of wines you are cellaring? If for short term aging, I would not worry about it. If you are keeping them ten years, I would be more concerned. What kind of cooling system are you using?

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/11/2018 8:38:58 PM

mjobtx

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I have stored wine in Eurocave cabinets for 20 years or more with no perceptible degradation. Unless the vibration is far more than you would expect from a wine cabinet, I think the problem is non-existent. Wine gets a lot of vibration through the wine making process all the way until it reaches you sometimes through multiple channels. If wine were that susceptible, we would all have to drink from the barrel at the winery.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/12/2018 4:04:15 AM

DavidHaskell

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I currently have a few different commercial wine coolers. I also have some old freezers that I have made into wine cellars.
This is all monitored with a temperature and humidity measuring system I have.

The old freezers with a thermostat from amazon can keep the temperature within a degree or two. The commercial wine coolers have much broader swings in temperature. All of these have compressors.

I have one cooler that uses a Peltier junction for cooling (no compressor). It has almost no fluctuation in temperature. Maybe .5 degrees F in 24 hours.

All of them vibrate some at different frequencies. I am trying to understand which frequencies are more harmful the our wine.

So far it seems that lower, higher amplitude frequencies appear to be more harmful. Earthquakes,Trains, Traffic.
This begs the question of shipping, or transporting wine at all. All of that is lower frequencies and high amplitude. Basically shaking.

The frequency of coolers it much higher. By a factor of 100 to 1000. Does this minimize the harm?

I have all kinds of wine. Weekday ones I am not to worried about, but many that I would like to keep for many years.

Thanks everyone for the input. Just trying to keep occupied until my wife lets me open another bottle.

Have a great Mother's Day all.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/12/2018 4:10:32 AM

mtpisgah

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Unless they are jiggling like jumping beans, I really do not think it is an issue. There are a lot of people with wine coolers collaring their wine for decades with no ill effects.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/12/2018 5:44:03 AM

KPB

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The core question has to be about sediment. If the vibration is somehow keeping a bitter precipitate or deposit in suspension then your wine might not age identically to a wine in a very stable, still setting. Which isn’t automatically going to mean worse. Some wines benefit from a touch of bitterness.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/12/2018 6:12:35 AM

CranBurgundy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

Some wines benefit from a touch of bitterness.

I don't think Mary Poppins would agree with you Ken.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/12/2018 6:18:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjobtx

I have stored wine in Eurocave cabinets for 20 years or more with no perceptible degradation. Unless the vibration is far more than you would expect from a wine cabinet, I think the problem is non-existent. Wine gets a lot of vibration through the wine making process all the way until it reaches you sometimes through multiple channels. If wine were that susceptible, we would all have to drink from the barrel at the winery.

FTW

I would guess that the converted freezers have much more vibration than Eurocaves, but I doubt that the vibration is excessive.
My Eurocaves are like time machines.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/12/2018 7:00:38 AM

River Rat

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I just drink wine and let you all worry about trivial things like fear of a vibration from a cooling unit. Ever try suspended animation?

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/12/2018 7:10:15 AM

CranBurgundy

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I think antigravity encapsulations surrounded by a dampening field for your valuable bottles would be a good idea. Pity they don't exist yet.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/12/2018 8:59:14 AM

grizzlymarmot

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I think that vibration could accelerate the aging process - but it should not cause actual damage like excessive heat or exposure to air. Just from reading the abstract above and general knowledge of chemical reactions, I would say that stirring can speed an expected chemical process but is unlikely to cause one that is not already in progress. With that in mind, one could consider storage at a slightly lower temperature in order to mitigate this. The most extreme example I could think of is with storage of water at 0 C. Stirred it will not freeze - but you can lower the temp to get the process to occur.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/12/2018 12:14:34 PM

River Rat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grizzlymarmot

I think that vibration could accelerate the aging process - but it should not cause actual damage like excessive heat or exposure to air. Just from reading the abstract above and general knowledge of chemical reactions, I would say that stirring can speed an expected chemical process but is unlikely to cause one that is not already in progress. With that in mind, one could consider storage at a slightly lower temperature in order to mitigate this. The most extreme example I could think of is with storage of water at 0 C. Stirred it will not freeze - but you can lower the temp to get the process to occur.

Accelerate the aging process? Enable us to enjoy an aged wine sooner? No, I won’t have any of that. Leave it be until I’m dead, my kids can sell it to someone just as stubborn as me.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/13/2018 11:19:00 AM

Chip Merlot

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I use an old normal refrigerator as my premier storage unit. Like you (the OP) I have a device that overrides the refrigerator's built-in thermostat and keeps it between 55-57. I was initially concerned about the vibration, so I lined the shelves with thin bubble wrap and some other shipping material. But I don't know if that's even necessary because I've placed the palm of my hand on all surfaces inside and outside the refrigerator when the compressor is running and I can't feel a thing. I also keep a container of water in there for humidity and I see no rippling going on.

Based on the sublime 2001 Leoville Barton I pulled out of there recently, I have to conclude that there are no ill effects to this method. But I will say that I try to pull the bottles at least a day before, not only to "calm it down" (though I think it's calm enough) but to stand it up and let any sediment settle to the bottom. But you'd do that with a passive cellar anyway.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/13/2018 12:46:11 PM

KPB

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My cellar has an A/C unit, but the cellar itself is just one end of my basement, insulated heavily and walled off. The A/C is mounted on one side. So it keeps things cool and there is no vibration issue at all. Seems to me that one could do the same thing even with a walk in closet...

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/14/2018 7:52:35 AM

Poppacork

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quote:

ORIGINAL: River Rat

I just drink wine and let you all worry about trivial things like fear of a vibration from a cooling unit. Ever try suspended animation?

I had to read that Vinfolio article with suspended disbelief.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/14/2018 9:03:41 AM

hankj

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grizzlymarmot

I think that vibration could accelerate the aging process - but it should not cause actual damage like excessive heat or exposure to air.

Agree that agitation will speed some chemical processes. But not all of them, at least not all at the same rate. "The aging process" is more than one process, and so agitation probably will cause some to move faster while others don't. Warm cellaring does the same; basically everything happens faster, but some things happen more faster, and the results aren't good. So vibration likely isn't good for long term cellar wines.

Also agree with you that the OP has nothing to worry about! Maybe put the Ports closest to the garage door ;)

< Message edited by hankj -- 5/14/2018 11:00:52 AM >

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/14/2018 10:52:23 AM

ckinv368

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I've certainly tasted the muted effects of "bottle shock" from a bottle that had been transported across the country via refrigerated truck and then opened immediately upon arriving. That said, a several thousand mile trip via truck is going to produce substantially greater vibration than a cooling unit.

If you think about it, a traditional bottle of wine has been jostled quite a bit from the time the grape was pressed. The wine is often pumped over the skins during fermentation, is often pumped and/or filtered as part of the bottling process, is jostled about on the bottling line, is shaken up again when put into case format and loaded into storage or for distribution, may end up on a ship or truck as part of distribution, and eventually reaches either a store (where it is moved around by employees) or you direct via a carrier. And yet, wine is still delicious. So, I don't tend to worry about the vibration question as much I guess.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/14/2018 12:49:26 PM

Tpety

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I have heard where some wineries use noise and vibration as a way of fining out red wines, it causes the sediment to fall faster- opposite of what was mentioned above. I don't know.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/14/2018 1:31:42 PM

Poppacork

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quote:

I have heard where some wineries use noise and vibration as a way of fining out red wines, it causes the sediment to fall faster- opposite of what was mentioned above. I don't know.

A little motion probably aids in flocculation.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/14/2018 3:31:34 PM

wadcorp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CranBurgundy

I think antigravity encapsulations surrounded by a dampening field for your valuable bottles would be a good idea. Pity they don't exist yet.

"The future is here, it's just not evenly distributed yet."

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/15/2018 8:22:17 AM

shawnh

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This thread leads to "travel shock' in wine.
I have long thought that wine needs to rest a while after a long delivery journey.
I think that it is small vibrations that are the damaging ones- just violently shaking a bottle for a few seconds won't do much.
But several hours in a diesel truck at 2000rpm does, in my experience affect the wine - there is a 'hollow' taste, the wine just doesn't seem right.
I tested this in my cellar.
I borrowed a shaking machine from a lab (a Vortex Genie, to be precise) and set a bottle (UK Wine Society merlot - nothing fancy) at 1500 rpm overnight.
The next day, I compared the shaken bottle with another unshaken one, and there was definitely a clear difference between them.
Someone attributes this effect to something to do with colloids in suspension, but I don't know how true that is.

I always put newly delivered wine in quarantine for at least a month before i will open it

I actually went as far as to roughly design a method for reducing vibration inside a truck, but never did anything with it.

Long story short, I would avoid domestic fridges because I think low grade vibration affects the taste of wine.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/15/2018 8:46:20 AM

hankj

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with you on all this Shawn, bottle shock is real

Back in the day my buddy, who now is sales manager for a big Cali winemaker, tried out making sales calls by bicycle. By the middle of the day his samples were drinking terribly. After that work and work out stayed in their respective lanes.

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RE: Vibration and Wine - 5/15/2018 1:49:08 PM

recotte

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shawnh

This thread leads to "travel shock' in wine.
I have long thought that wine needs to rest a while after a long delivery journey.

Generally agreed, although I'm more cautious with older wines--that are more likely to have sediment--than with younger wines. It's not my habit, but I have been known to occasionally pobega a bottle. Since I get almost all of my wine delivered directly to my offsite, though, that usually creates a built-in resting period, since it normally takes me a week or four to get there to take delivery.

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