Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think?

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Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/17/2019 10:41:27 PM

fanglangzhe

Posts: 374
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Hi all, another question for the community. I've noticed that for several wines that have gotten my interest recently, Vivino actually has more TNs/ratings than CT. Now I know their rating scale is totally different (up to 5 stars) so isn't directly comparable. But I'm wondering if there is any view about whether the demographics of people who post TNs/ratings on CT are different from those who post on Vivino.

In the past, CT scores/TNs were the most important source for me to judge whether I should buy a new wine. But I find myself now looking at Vivino more & more as they seem to cover more wines with more ratings. I've also met several regular wine drinkers who only use Vivino but not CT, but have met none who are the opposite. My sample size is small so I also know that may not be indicative of the overall scene.

Post #: 1

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/17/2019 10:54:55 PM

Paul852

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From: Hong Kong
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My limited experience is that there are a lot of clueless Vivino users (as well as some more clued up ones), so I don't really use the app at all, and tend to go by CT scores/TNs and recommendations from friends & suppliers.

But, as far as I know, I don't personally know any other CT users in real life, although I do have several friends who are moderately clued up about wine.

(in reply to fanglangzhe)

Post #: 2

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/17/2019 10:58:17 PM

fanglangzhe

Posts: 374
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul852

But, as far as I know, I don't personally know any other CT users in real life, although I do have several friends who are moderately clued up about wine.

That is also true for me as well. But I do know several who use Vivino and they are not clueless about wine at all, far from it.

(in reply to Paul852)

Post #: 3

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 12:18:03 AM

Claw Dee Puss

Posts: 213
Joined: 3/11/2014
From: Portugal (via England)
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I started as a Vivino user when it was first launched. Many "members" were fairly serious, thoughtful, wine drinkers. Over time it became more of a social networking site than something to do with wine, and the people who actually knew anything, and whose views were worth reading, drifted away. People post notes on wines that weren't actually what they drank, or don't actually exist - they focus on chat, rather than wine. Some of the larger producers here in Portugal had multiple accounts, and simply gave ALL their wines 5 stars, making many of the ratings useless, especially for new releases (which was, of course, their intent) - Vivino simply didn't care (just checked - still true). Much of the "facts about..." type of information presented simply wasn't true - again Vivno didn't care. Despite my having not posted anything for many many years, I still, regularly, get new "followers". Of course, as someone drinking from somewhat of an "outlying" region, my experience may differ from drinkers of other regions. Once in a while, when I'm researching new potential purchases of wines not on CT, I'll consult Vivino - but with care and a close look at who exactly has rated the given wine - more often than not I ultimately deem the information worthless.
CT, by contrast - partly I think because it's harder to use - encourages the more serious drinker who cares. I'd take the "validity" of 10 ratings here over 1000 on Vivino any day.

(in reply to fanglangzhe)

Post #: 4

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 5:59:15 AM

mc2 wines

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From: NYC
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Don't use Vivino. Have friends who are completely clueless about wine through to people know much more than I do who do use it so my guess is it's a broad range. CT seems to attract only the slightly more wine serious though (don't know anyone who is less wine serious on it, do know a lot of ppl who use it).

Not sure how that translates to ratings as I don't use Vivino, but have generally found I'm ok with CT.

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Post #: 5

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 6:11:43 AM

cigar52

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From: California... now Sarasota, FL
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Personally I do not use Vivino. CT ratings in general have worked well for me, but especially when reading consumption notes. Also you get a feel for those who rate too high or low compared to most.

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Post #: 6

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 7:08:46 AM

MaineMark

Posts: 428
Joined: 6/17/2015
From: Falmouth, Maine
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Hmmm....

I have *maybe* heard of Vivino? Definitely never used it.

Reading others posts, I am getting the sense I am the fool for having no awareness of it... But, that is the case.

That said, I am a wine lover and technology guy. I am on CT, Berserkers, and Vinous multiple times a day. I use CT extensively.

Put me in the camp of a strong CT-er, and a never Vivino-er.

(in reply to cigar52)

Post #: 7

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 7:18:19 AM

TexasWineGeek

Posts: 1568
Joined: 8/18/2009
From: Mclean, Virginia and Cascais, Portugal
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While in principal I agree, I have also seen a trend to a more 'social media' approach in CT as well. Fortunately it doesn't dominate and over shadow the serious wine drinkers and seems to have found a happy balance.

How's Portugal, we don't return until mid-March. Missing Cascais a lot.

Oh, and I agree I would take CT scores and reviews more seriously than Vivino. What I like about CT is that if you work with it long enough you begin to pick up on individuals who have similar palettes as you do and I find it useful in making certain judgments about if I want to pursue a wine given their perceived profile and the similarities I have identified between that person and myself.

Billy T

< Message edited by TexasWineGeek -- 1/18/2019 7:27:11 AM >

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Post #: 8

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 7:38:14 AM

champagneinhand

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I’ll post a Vivino note or two. Annerk got my interested to and the the CT phot interaction, but Bivino is off on so much. It is mostly a sales tool for younger palates but there are some decent buy brief TNs. However as said before most wines I try to put into Vivino don’t exist in the right vintage or cuvée but some bargains wines do.

I have posted far more CT TMs probably around 1200 and I probably one have posted a third of what I drink or less, just because of time consuming nature and I generally post what I have purchased. Vivino I may have 70ish notes by comparison.

It’s social media. The people I know that use it are intimidated by CT or don’t see it’s isef because they maybe have 2 -3 mixed cars of wine at any given time but are trying to learn.

There’s no reason you can’t look at both. On Vivino people follow you instead of friend/fan to get that gold star so both have ways to find similar palates. I think people that are not serious dump both quickly but CT is far more useful to me having experience with both.

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RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 7:48:01 AM

Eddie

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I don't use vivino...usually there aren't enough reviews of a wine to mean much, and almost always the reviewers don't know enough about wine to produce useful reviews. CT is head-and-shoulders above any other source of reviews, amateur or professional.

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RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 7:52:48 AM

TexasWineGeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: champagneinhand

I’ll post a Vivino note or two. Annerk got my interested to and the the CT phot interaction, but Bivino is off on so much. It is mostly a sales tool for younger palates but there are some decent buy brief TNs. However as said before most wines I try to put into Vivino don’t exist in the right vintage or cuvée but some bargains wines do.

I have posted far more CT TMs probably around 1200 and I probably one have posted a third of what I drink or less, just because of time consuming nature and I generally post what I have purchased. Vivino I may have 70ish notes by comparison.

It’s social media. The people I know that use it are intimidated by CT or don’t see it’s isef because they maybe have 2 -3 mixed cars of wine at any given time but are trying to learn.

There’s no reason you can’t look at both. On Vivino people follow you instead of friend/fan to get that gold star so both have ways to find similar palates. I think people that are not serious dump both quickly but CT is far more useful to me having experience with both.

For me it's a time factor. I just don't have enough time in the day to review both seriously so I chose CT. Feel it is on a more serious trend.

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Consuming wine in moderation daily will help people to die young as late as possible. ~ Dr Philip Norrie

Too Much Wine and Not Enough Time ~

(in reply to champagneinhand)

Post #: 11

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 9:48:08 AM

skifree

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I think I tried Vivino before I found CT, and then abandoned it. Just went and took another look on the PC - very flashy web site, very snappy response as well.

The business model seems more like FB - drive you towards wine sales. For example, the 1990 d'Yquem is actually sold by Grand Vin here in Wash. State, same price as their web site. Shades of Wine-Searcher!

CT has no commercial ties and its business model is shareware (donations) - its strength then is its independence from the commercial side of the business. Also, did not see tools to manage one's cellar on Vivino.

I would assume there are many honest, independent reviewers on Vivino - but the fact that they are reviews on the products they are trying to sell raises all kinds of alarm bells for me.

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RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 9:49:54 AM

kevin23610

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I love this question.

I use Vivino a LOT. What I can tell is that the ratings are higher in Vivino than in CT - which are always lower that what they should be. Now, time to piss some people off (and they'll reveal themselves VERY quickly with angry replies) on CT. CT'ers seem to "know everything" about wine and especially seem to "know" much more about wines than the critics, especially the top rated critics, do. I've noticed many great wines on this site are rated too low and I personally find them laughable. Theres a lot of pretentiousness on this site as where Vivino is more your humble everyday drinker. The Vivino app is so much better on the fly and more reliable. Its very easy to sift through the bullshit reviews and find the ones that matter, especially when you're in the store. The more you use it the easier it is to sift through the nonsense.

Use whatever it easier for you and always remember, at the end of the day, its still just grape juice. Dont over complicate grape juice.

(in reply to fanglangzhe)

Post #: 13

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 10:07:35 AM

jmcmchi

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No idea. One place is enough to store my data

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RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 4:52:55 PM

Jenise

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From: The Pacific Northest Westest
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Long ago, I downloaded Vivino and then selected two reasonably priced ($30ish) WA wines to compare notes on. Vivino didn't even have one of the wines in their system. The other had accumulated a lot of notes along the lines of "Awesome juice!". I looked at several other entries and it seemed the average Vivino person's vocabulary and experience seemed very limited and well below what I'm used to from online wine discussion, so I deleted the app.

< Message edited by Jenise -- 1/19/2019 8:04:26 AM >

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Post #: 15

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 7:24:59 PM

CranBurgundy

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So it seems we have 2 Vivino users in this thread - one with the original question, the other with a chip on their shoulder who must think the best defense is offense.

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RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 8:32:17 PM

Slye

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I tend to agree with Skifree, that Vivino is just a different model. We have some relatives who are just getting into wine, and they use Vivino. (I know I have mentioned CT to them, but not sure if they use it). I think for them it is nice BECAUSE it points them to how to buy the wine. Like Skifree, I think that risks certain distortions on what is being posted, by whom, and why.

On CT, I find the tasting notes (rather than the scores) very valuable -- though I will definitely look at scores as a first indicator of a wine. I also, over time, have developed a sense of whose palate more closely aligns with mine, so I am more likely to treat those notes more seriously. Now I can imagine that had I been on Vivino for a similar amount of time, I might have developed a similar sense of useful tasters.

(in reply to CranBurgundy)

Post #: 17

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 11:05:07 PM

klaus3974

Posts: 189
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From: Living in Geneva, Switzerland
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I started using Vivino recently for daily drinkers. It allows you to see very quickly what wines are significantly discounted close to you. I found this feature quite useful if you are not looking for anything in particular.

I have never posted a tasting note on their site and I have not found their tasting note particularly useful to learn about the wines given what I already know. Obviously the best way to learn is by drinking. My friends who are starting to get interested about wine use Vivino a lot and that is already great. Those who would like to take it forward probably will end up in CTs as there is no better tool out there to manage your cellar and the average guy in CTs knows much more about wines than in Vivino. I guess there is a natural evolution. For instance, I do not use Berserkers. I have tried to read it a couple of times but there are a lot of discussions that probably have some history behind that I do not understand.

One of the limitations of CT for me is that it is very American-centered and I am based in Europe so I only get reviews about the massively produced European wines that make it to the American market. Almost half my bottles do not have a single tasting note and only a few have ten notes or more.

Edited to add that I think is great that people get interested in wine and that Vivino or Delectable are instumental to that. Most of my friends feel intimidated by the complexity of wine and prefer to buy something else they know about just to not look bad regarding their potential poor choice of a wine. In my culture, wine is to share so you want to share something that is good with the people you like. Easy to use, non-judgmental applications like Vivino allow these people to jump into wine. Yes, it is more competition for the bottles but it allows winemakers to stay in business, improve the quality of their wines and try from time to time new things and that is good for everyone of us. With the secular declinie in the consumption of table wine, a few decades ago the future of the wine industry didn't look that great compared to nowadays.

< Message edited by klaus3974 -- 1/18/2019 11:20:58 PM >

(in reply to Slye)

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RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 11:14:07 PM

jmcmchi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: klaus3974

I started using Vivino recently for daily drinkers. It allows you to see very quickly what wines are significantly discounted close to you. I found this feature quite useful if you are not looking for anything in particular.

I have never posted a tasting note on their site and I have not found their tasting note particularly useful to learn about the wines. Obviously the best way to learn is by drinking. My friends who are starting to get interested about wine use Vivino a lot and that is already great. Those who would like to take it forward probably will end up in CTs as there is no better tool out there to manage your cellar and the average guy in CTs knows much more about wines than in Vivino. I guess there is a natural evolution. For instance, I do not use Berserkers. I have tried to read it a couple of times but there are a lot of discussions that probably have some history behind that I do not understand.

One of the limitations of CT for me is that it is very American-centered and I am based in Europe so I only get reviews about the massively produced European wines that make it to the American market. Almost half my bottles do not have a single tasting note and only a few have ten notes or more.

I sympathize but would suggest that your notes on the lesser known (in America) wines will be invaluable to people visiting France/Italy/Spain, etc..
And I find that a lot of my Washington wines have very few notes too.

(in reply to klaus3974)

Post #: 19

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 11:22:28 PM

klaus3974

Posts: 189
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From: Living in Geneva, Switzerland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmcmchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: klaus3974

I started using Vivino recently for daily drinkers. It allows you to see very quickly what wines are significantly discounted close to you. I found this feature quite useful if you are not looking for anything in particular.

I have never posted a tasting note on their site and I have not found their tasting note particularly useful to learn about the wines. Obviously the best way to learn is by drinking. My friends who are starting to get interested about wine use Vivino a lot and that is already great. Those who would like to take it forward probably will end up in CTs as there is no better tool out there to manage your cellar and the average guy in CTs knows much more about wines than in Vivino. I guess there is a natural evolution. For instance, I do not use Berserkers. I have tried to read it a couple of times but there are a lot of discussions that probably have some history behind that I do not understand.

One of the limitations of CT for me is that it is very American-centered and I am based in Europe so I only get reviews about the massively produced European wines that make it to the American market. Almost half my bottles do not have a single tasting note and only a few have ten notes or more.

I sympathize but would suggest that your notes on the lesser known (in America) wines will be invaluable to people visiting France/Italy/Spain, etc..
And I find that a lot of my Washington wines have very few notes too.

I am working on that

but we drink two bottles a week so it takes time...

< Message edited by klaus3974 -- 1/18/2019 11:23:01 PM >

(in reply to jmcmchi)

Post #: 20

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 11:39:30 PM

jmcmchi

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We need commitment on this site.... Europe should set an example, like two bottles for lunch

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RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/18/2019 11:49:37 PM

fanglangzhe

Posts: 374
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On Vivino's website, they say they have 38.8 million reviews of wines. I don't know if CT regularly updates its statistics but could only find a post from 2016 saying there are more than 5 million reviews (see link below). Leaving aside the quality of the reviews (or lack of), no wonder I can find more TNs of more wines in Vivino than CT. But I get it, most CTers don't seem to like Vivino and/or don't take it seriously. I'm not going to argue with that.

https://support.cellartracker.com/article/49-tasting-notes-and-ratings

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Post #: 22

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/19/2019 4:00:30 AM

KPB

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From: Ithaca, New York
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@Kevin23610, I guess that your remark is a response to the OP, but it seems very hostile in tone.

My views are the opposite of yours, though. I think the amusing concept is that human beings can taste 50-100 wines every single day, year after year, and not experience palate burnout. These professionals do, obviously, experience more wines than any amateur. But I myself wouldn’t enjoy writing TNs for 1500 recently released Rhône reds, and since of those 1300 would be dull, generic wines, it wouldn’t be much fun tasting them either. As for the other 200, over time I get to sample a surprisingly large number.

So I look at myself and (1) I enter TNs based on my own perception of the wine. (2) I drink enough wines and have sampled enough famous ones to recognize great wines from at least some regions. (3) I don’t really care if Parker or Laube or someone else liked a wine more than I did, or less. I’m not trying to replicate those people. I’m offering my own perspective.

Now from my view, what is that telling me about Vivino? That when you see a higher match, it is happening because many people are carefully parroting what the professionals said in published TNs. Some people do that: they read the official TN to know what to write down. But I’m guessing you are already very familiar with that phenomenon. Very likely it happens more on Vivino.

This is like restaurants. We both read the same NYTimes review and go to some fancy place. You have a great meal and post a very positive review on Yelp. My experience isn’t so good: I find the food too spicy and the service was slow, and my review is less positive. Am I then wrong and you right? I would laugh if you made that claim. Same deal with wines.

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Post #: 23

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/19/2019 4:05:37 AM

RedRedMoreRed

Posts: 1769
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From: Orlando, FL
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I think there's a big difference between the two. Comparing them to me is apples and oranges. From my perspective, CT is primarily a software for your cellar inventory and management. It also provides reviews and ratings, not to mention a really great forum for discussions.

Vivino on the other hand is more of just a quick reference tool. I have the app and primarily use it to cross check prices, along with CT and Wine Searcher to get a good feel for the market price for something I'm considering. It's also useful when i'm trying to locate a wine that is near me.

I think that wine drinkers who make the commitment to private collections, where there is a need for CT's tracking tools, are going to be more invested in the hobby, be more educated on wine in general, and therefore a group whose opinions I place more faith in as opposed to the mass general public which I believe make up the majority of Vivino users.

Both have their place. But as for which one would I choose to use in guiding my decisions, it would be CT. I'd say that Vivino is McDonald's where as CT would be Ruth's Chris. As always, YMMV.

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RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/19/2019 5:53:38 AM

Paul852

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From: Hong Kong
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quote:

ORIGINAL: klaus3974

One of the limitations of CT for me is that it is very American-centered and I am based in Europe so I only get reviews about the massively produced European wines that make it to the American market. Almost half my bottles do not have a single tasting note and only a few have ten notes or more.

This is obviously very true. In Asia we get a different selection again - it's often clear from the labelling of bottles or cases whether they were originally designed for the European (often British in HK) market or the NA market, or direct to the Asia/China markets. CT is very rare out here, but Vivino is fairly widely used.

Apart from the tasting notes, the CAV and WMJ Auction values are very helpful to me. Pricing in Asia can sometimes be way out of line with the world market, particularly if riding on high score RP/JS reviews. Vivino shows stuff as "on sale" etc but this always requires a sanity check - it is common practice in these parts to simply assert that something is discounted when the "original" price was just more or less invented. Money talks around here - in the same way that Michelin stars in Asia are, allegedly, available for a price. I realise that Vivino is a seriously commercial operation: my perception (perhaps wrongly) is that CT is much more of a community-driven thing which doesn't have profit as its primary driver.

(in reply to klaus3974)

Post #: 25

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/19/2019 6:20:10 AM

fanglangzhe

Posts: 374
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Yes, I also observe that CT is rarely used in Asia while Vivino is quite popular. CT was founded in Seattle while Vivino has European origins (as far as I can tell from their website). I wonder why Vivino is so much more popular here in Asia.

< Message edited by fanglangzhe -- 1/19/2019 6:24:58 AM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/19/2019 7:28:04 AM

Eric

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From: Seattle, WA
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Vivino was founded and grown with more than 57 million dollars of external investment. They have hundreds of people working on it. They are spending millions of dollars per year, and they have declared that they want to sell 1 billion dollars of wine by 2020. When you spend that kind of money, you can achieve some very big numbers.

I started CellarTracker with my savings, working in a coffee shop as an office. I have never taken a dime of external investment (despite many unsolicited approaches), because I prefer to grow the service organically with no external pressure from investors to monetize. I have a team of two employees beside myself. I have been profitable since 2005, and all my decisions are about ensuring that CT is still here and thriving long after I am gone from this planet. It is an excellent, focused business. It does not rely on wine commerce which was a highly deliberate choice.

I partner with Vivino. At some level we compete as well, but mainly we have very different goals and targets.

< Message edited by Eric -- 1/19/2019 7:29:39 AM >

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Post #: 27

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/19/2019 7:54:53 AM

musedir

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Post #: 28

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/19/2019 7:55:03 AM

Paul852

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eric

I partner with Vivino.

Thanks for all that post, which confirms what I thought.

I assume the the wildly wrong photos in the database are generally from Vivino?

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Post #: 29

RE: Vivino vs. CT ratings/TNs - what do you think? - 1/19/2019 10:03:42 AM

Hooters

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Vivono's label matching engine is exceptionally clever, Eric do you get to make use of that for CT?

As to the reviews, I agree a lot of Vivino reviews are rather light, too many "Lovely wine!" or "bought as a gift, don't know what it tasted like". I do find it useful for scanning restaurant wine lists as it gives you a general view of what's on there. I do tend to find though that a few wines I rate highly score extremely badly on Vivono (and vice versa) but are 90+ on CT, probably the average palate can't handle an aged Burgundy!

(in reply to Paul852)

Post #: 30