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Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 1:27:07 AM

grafstrb

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Do we have an audience for Chenin here? ... spirited discussion elsewhere suggests we do! I thought it would be fun to have an ongoing discussion here --- Chenin is worthy of its own thread.

So, who's a fan? Why? How did you come into Chenin? --- it's not exactly as ubiquitous as Chardonnay or Sauvignon Blanc. What do you love (or hate!) about it? Particular food pairings where Chenin kills it?

...

For my part, I'll start by saying it was a process of acceptance for me and Chenin. I've always liked it, but it took me a long time to accept that I prefer it to Chardonnay. Giving into that personal reality was liberating; suddenly, our holdings were moving in directions more congruous with our preferences (duh!). Don't get me wrong, I still love Chardonnay, I just find myself more frequently wanting a Chenin.

With food, I've found Chenin is amazing with scallops, roasted chicken, chicken piccata, tuna ... I'm sure many others, they're just not coming to me at the moment ... I will list them as they come to mind.

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 1:51:44 AM

Paul852

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I'm a fan of South African chenin, but not so much of the few French ones that I've tried (yes, including Huet). For me those few French ones have a mixture of sweetness and acidity that simply doesn't work for my palate (in much the same way as all German riesling that I've tried).

From South Africa, I've mainly drunk those of Ken Forrester. I managed to pick up a few bottles of the 2016 Ken Forrester Chenin Blanc Old Vine Reserve for ~US$12 which is an excellent everyday white wine (sadly the 2018, whilst still OK, doesn't work so well for me).

At the high end the 2015 Ken Forrester Chenin Blanc Dirty Little Secret "one" is one of the best white wines I have ever drunk (my budget doesn't stretch to silly money for white Burgs; this is about US$68).

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 2:02:29 AM

Tricky99

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Absolutely! - one of the great, unsung, varieties that that finds itself often in New World blends or some of the most magnificent dessert wines the world has ever seen.
Can't think of much in between to be honest, but prove me wrong please.

I've a single bottle of Moulin Touchais 1964 left, from a dozen, earmarked for my 60th in 3 years time.

< Message edited by Tricky99 -- 2/2/2021 2:03:18 AM >

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 2:12:59 AM

grafstrb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul852

I'm a fan of South African chenin, but not so much of the few French ones that I've tried (yes, including Huet). For me those few French ones have a mixture of sweetness and acidity that simply doesn't work for my palate (in much the same way as all German riesling that I've tried).

From South Africa, I've mainly drunk those of Ken Forrester. I managed to pick up a few bottles of the 2016 Ken Forrester Chenin Blanc Old Vine Reserve for ~US$12 which is an excellent everyday white wine (sadly the 2018, whilst still OK, doesn't work so well for me).

At the high end the 2015 Ken Forrester Chenin Blanc Dirty Little Secret "one" is one of the best white wines I have ever drunk (my budget doesn't stretch to silly money for white Burgs; this is about US$68).

Ha! Funny thing --- Huet has usually left me underwhelmed --- *that* was a tough reality for me to accept, too! I did, however, break-down with the 2019 vintage -- I've had one of them so far -- the Le Haut Lieu -- and it was **shocker** underwhelming. To be clear, it was very good, but I was expecting a lot more given so many tasting notes I read.

Very cool you mention South Africa, too! I haven't had any of the Ken Forrester offerings, but I think there's some available around me -- I'll give 'em a shot. And I have no problem spending for a very nice one --- again, accepting that I prefer Chenin over Chardonnay was liberating -- in part because I wouldn't pause much to spend even more on Chardonnay!

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 2:23:08 AM

grafstrb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tricky99

Absolutely! - one of the great, unsung, varieties that that finds itself often in New World blends or some of the most magnificent dessert wines the world has ever seen.
Can't think of much in between to be honest, but prove me wrong please.

I've a single bottle of Moulin Touchais 1964 left, from a dozen, earmarked for my 60th in 3 years time.

That Moulin Touchais!!

How's the condition on it? I've not had one of theirs with that much age on it -- how exciting!

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 4:40:43 AM

musedir

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Love ‘em. I currently have a combo of Old World and New World Chenins in the cellar. Very versatile and quite tasty.

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 6:17:41 AM

Ricardo

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Vincent Carême - Vouvray Sec..

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 6:19:29 AM

Eddie

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I love Huet; the Sec Le Mont is one of my favorite whites. Those of you who find them underwhelming, may be drinking them too early. I find young Huet underwhelming, but it's fabulous when it's in its drinking window, and this varies from vintage to vintage. I buy several bottles from a given vintage and just sit on them for a while.

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 6:31:59 AM

CranBurgundy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eddie

I buy several bottles from a given vintage and just sit on them for a while.

....waiting for them to "hatch".

Jokes aside, Eddie is correct. The 2002 Moelleux is just barely coming around now. Drier classifications generally need a little less time but still should sit at least 8 years from release to start to show their charm.

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 6:33:43 AM

thesternowl

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I love Chenin Blanc and its varying styles from around the world but it is the wines of Nicolas Joly that made me fall in love with the grape.

(in reply to Eddie)

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 6:38:59 AM

lockestep

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I was drinking Chenin back in the late 1970s. This was before Chardonnay became the Cool Kid and the must drink white wine. I need to go diving in my old notebooks and see who I really liked back then.
Today Sandlands is filling that slot for me. I’m trying to hold out and get 5+ years on some bottles. I think it will be more than worth it, but with small allocations and being pretty tasty now, it is hard to hold off. I do have 1 bottle left of the 15 Lodi and 3 of the 16 Amador, so some have made it.

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 7:19:25 AM

Slye

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I have loved some of the South African ones as well. I also am not sure I get the Huet thing -- though people whose palates I respect love them. I do think it may be drinking them too young on my part. I do like good German Riesling though -- so I am not averse to more sweetness per se.

I recently opened Erica Orr's Chenin old vines from 2019 -- really excellent, particularly at the price of $25 (and even less via BerserkerDay this year, which is when I bought it). This is a dry version, which I think I prefer. Went really well with a chicken/butternut squash Mexican style dish -- so yes, I find wines like this go with lots of different foods. Roast chicken I find to be one of the most versatile dishes for lots of foods, including most whites and most if not all reds.

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 7:28:23 AM

wineismylife

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You had me at Chenin.

South Africa, France, U.S., you name it. I'll drink it. Sadly, I never seem to have enough in stock.

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 8:08:25 AM

Anybody

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Truly a noble and great variety. How many other grapes have the flexibility to produce wines that are dry, off-dry and sweet; still and sparkling? I think too many of the French offerings are consumed too young to reveal their incredible potential for complexity. The flavor profile can be a dizzying cornucopia of fruits, flowers and minerals - which is why some can be some fetching in their youth.

I prefer them more on the austere side, so the northernmost villages of the Loire appeal most to me.

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 8:21:30 AM

Pontac

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I'm for Chenin. I prefer it to Chardonnay.

We don't drink much white wine, and since Mrs P prefers NZ SB with fish we only have a non-NZ SB when we have a rare dish that we have white with.

All the same, I currently have 4 Chenins in stock and zero Chardonnay (unless one counts a BdB Champagne) and I am very unlikely to buy the second and definitely will keep restocking on Chenin.

Chenin can, and is, made in all styles, from bone dry to luscious sweet, and I must give a mention of sparkling traditional method Chenin, like they produce in the Loire e.g. Saumur and Vouvray.

South Africa had about the same amount of Chenin as all the rest of the world together (it used to be way more, but plantings have been replaced with reds). Top end SA Chenins have risen greatly in recent years as people begin to recognise its quality.

quote:

TEN YEARS AGO, the average price of the Top 10 Chenin Blancs according to the 2011 South African Wine Classification was R89 a bottle. Come February 2021 the figure stands at R303pb, with the industry’s annual general price increases due in March

.

https://topwinesa.com/2021/02/top-cape-wine-continues-to-climb-in-value-especially-chenin/

< Message edited by Pontac -- 2/2/2021 8:23:36 AM >

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 9:03:52 AM

grafstrb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eddie

I love Huet; the Sec Le Mont is one of my favorite whites. Those of you who find them underwhelming, may be drinking them too early. I find young Huet underwhelming, but it's fabulous when it's in its drinking window, and this varies from vintage to vintage. I buy several bottles from a given vintage and just sit on them for a while.

That could certainly be the case with me. It was only a couple weeks ago I opened the 2019 Le Haut Lieu sec and found it underwhelming. I much prefer the more focused, powerful, and acidic versions from the likes of Chidaine, Collier, Guiberteau, and others. Luckily(?) I have 8 bottles of 2019 Huet sec remaining, so I'll have opportunity to enjoy this phenomenon of which you speak, Eddie. :)

CB, thanks for chiming-in with your 8 Years for Sec tip. Eddie, what amount of time do you typically wait on Huet's secs? I know you said it varies vintage to vintage --- is that variance wide, or somewhat narrow? Do you have a rule of thumb off which you will deviate?

< Message edited by grafstrb -- 2/2/2021 9:09:19 AM >

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 9:06:07 AM

grafstrb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Vincent Carême - Vouvray Sec..

I bought a couple of these, primarily on the strength of Otto's note (foreceberry). While I don't love it as much as him, I think it's a really solid $20 Vouvray. Another really solid Vouvray in the same range is Vigneau-Chevreau (sp?) --- they have a couple bottlings: I actually prefer the cheaper one.

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 9:07:34 AM

grafstrb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thesternowl

I love Chenin Blanc and its varying styles from around the world but it is the wines of Nicolas Joly that made me fall in love with the grape.

I've long looked at this with wonder, but have never tried one. Is there one, or two, currently available in the market you'd recommend? Why do you like them so much? I've heard they can be extremely variable.

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 9:11:08 AM

grafstrb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockestep

I was drinking Chenin back in the late 1970s. This was before Chardonnay became the Cool Kid and the must drink white wine. I need to go diving in my old notebooks and see who I really liked back then.
Today Sandlands is filling that slot for me. I’m trying to hold out and get 5+ years on some bottles. I think it will be more than worth it, but with small allocations and being pretty tasty now, it is hard to hold off. I do have 1 bottle left of the 15 Lodi and 3 of the 16 Amador, so some have made it.

I would *love* to hear which Chenins you were drinking back in the day! Sandlands I have not yet tried, but it's at the top of my domestic list, with William Kelley's "Beau Rivage" right behind it, as ones I want to try.

How would you compare the Sandlands to examples from the Loire?

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 9:13:00 AM

grafstrb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slye

I have loved some of the South African ones as well. I also am not sure I get the Huet thing -- though people whose palates I respect love them. I do think it may be drinking them too young on my part. I do like good German Riesling though -- so I am not averse to more sweetness per se.

I recently opened Erica Orr's Chenin old vines from 2019 -- really excellent, particularly at the price of $25 (and even less via BerserkerDay this year, which is when I bought it). This is a dry version, which I think I prefer. Went really well with a chicken/butternut squash Mexican style dish -- so yes, I find wines like this go with lots of different foods. Roast chicken I find to be one of the most versatile dishes for lots of foods, including most whites and most if not all reds.

I must have completely missed that offer on BD --- what's the winery's name? {runs off in an attempt to find it} How would you compare this one to its Loire counterparts? (that's always the calculus for me, whenever I venture away from the Loire for Chenin)

Your post reminded me: butternut squash raviolis!! soooooo good with Chenin! (also great with Chardonnay or Viura

) Very specific, I know --- from time to time, Costco will have them in their refrigerated section, and they are very much worth buying (as are the lobster ones).

< Message edited by grafstrb -- 2/2/2021 9:15:02 AM >

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 9:16:07 AM

grafstrb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wineismylife

You had me at Chenin.

South Africa, France, U.S., you name it. I'll drink it. Sadly, I never seem to have enough in stock.

You and me both. Quite frankly, this is a constant battle for us and nearly all white wines --- we buy them, and then drink them right away! Must buy more.

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 9:23:59 AM

brigcampbell

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I like Chenin more than Chardonnay typically.

Chenin is cool, stylistically is can vary probably more than any other grape (have to think about that one)

And it's a great value around the world.

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 9:25:30 AM

ChrisinCowiche

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grafstrb

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slye

I have loved some of the South African ones as well. I also am not sure I get the Huet thing -- though people whose palates I respect love them. I do think it may be drinking them too young on my part. I do like good German Riesling though -- so I am not averse to more sweetness per se.

I recently opened Erica Orr's Chenin old vines from 2019 -- really excellent, particularly at the price of $25 (and even less via BerserkerDay this year, which is when I bought it). This is a dry version, which I think I prefer. Went really well with a chicken/butternut squash Mexican style dish -- so yes, I find wines like this go with lots of different foods. Roast chicken I find to be one of the most versatile dishes for lots of foods, including most whites and most if not all reds.

I must have completely missed that offer on BD --- what's the winery's name? {runs off in an attempt to find it} How would you compare this one to its Loire counterparts? (that's always the calculus for me, whenever I venture away from the Loire for Chenin)

Your post reminded me: butternut squash raviolis!! soooooo good with Chenin! (also great with Chardonnay or Viura ) Very specific, I know --- from time to time, Costco will have them in their refrigerated section, and they are very much worth buying (as are the lobster ones).

Orr Winery. I had sampled that Chenin somewhere, but only had vague memory of "yes I like this wine". I ordered some more like Slye, so will be interested. I was very tempted but did not buy the Riverain (sp?) CA offering on BD.

In general, I've always liked Chenin, never a big Chardonnay fan. My tasting/drinking is mostly geographically limited to Washington, and I for sure need to expend. Too much wine, too little time (and money). Other WA ones to look for L'ecole 41 probably is most well known and distributed, used to be called Walla Voila, now Old Vines Chenin. In WA Old vines means 1980 or so, and L'ecole has made this wine since ~2000. Other of note are Kiona Ice Chenin, and Pontin Del Roza, also been around a couple of decades, though I don't know if its still in production, since the owner/winemaker passed away a few years ago.

< Message edited by ChrisinCowiche -- 2/2/2021 9:50:47 AM >

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RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 9:26:58 AM

Slye

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grafstrb

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slye

I have loved some of the South African ones as well. I also am not sure I get the Huet thing -- though people whose palates I respect love them. I do think it may be drinking them too young on my part. I do like good German Riesling though -- so I am not averse to more sweetness per se.

I recently opened Erica Orr's Chenin old vines from 2019 -- really excellent, particularly at the price of $25 (and even less via BerserkerDay this year, which is when I bought it). This is a dry version, which I think I prefer. Went really well with a chicken/butternut squash Mexican style dish -- so yes, I find wines like this go with lots of different foods. Roast chicken I find to be one of the most versatile dishes for lots of foods, including most whites and most if not all reds.

I must have completely missed that offer on BD --- what's the winery's name? {runs off in an attempt to find it} How would you compare this one to its Loire counterparts? (that's always the calculus for me, whenever I venture away from the Loire for Chenin)

Your post reminded me: butternut squash raviolis!! soooooo good with Chenin! (also great with Chardonnay or Viura ) Very specific, I know --- from time to time, Costco will have them in their refrigerated section, and they are very much worth buying (as are the lobster ones).

The winery name is Orr. The BD offer was a three pack sampler -- one each of her Chenin, Merlot, and Grenache. I have not tried the reds yet, but really liked the Chenin. Will try it again this evening to see if a day open makes a big difference (one tasting note suggested it would).

I am afraid I have not had enough experience with Chenin generally, much less Loire chenin to compare. This one has lots of complexity -- i got notes of ground nuts (some marzipan), tropical fruits, pineapple, and really nice acidity, minerality, and salinity. My guess is that this will age well, but again I do not have the extensive experience with Chenin that others might.

(in reply to grafstrb)

Post #: 24

RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 9:38:17 AM

ChrisinCowiche

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Slye, my Orr wines arrive today. So please wait until I've had a chance to taste and order more Chenin before you do. Thanks!

One of the issues w/ Washington is that this is seen as a rather obscure variety and very few vineyards grow it, I think I read down to less than 20 acres in production. One of vineyards Orr used, Rothrock, ripped out their Chenin block. It had also been source for a Full Pull Block Wines Chenin I sucked down in short order a while ago.

I planted 300 Gewurztraminer vines and have never been happy with the wines I've attempted. I am really tempted to pull them out and replace with Chenin. Or Albarino. Or more Viognier. Or more Roussanne, Or more Syrah. Choices.

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Post #: 25

RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 9:58:32 AM

jmcmchi

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Agreeing with Chris on Kiona Icewine and L'Ecole. Add recently Lobo Hills and Efeste, as well as a surprising CSM

From South Africa thereare all types of experiments: Momento has a verdelho component, l'Avenir single block was held in acacia and oak, ken Forrester's FMC is intriguing, a lot of oak and expensive. I've liked Boutinot, Reyneke, Careme, Bosman Family, Swartland and Boutinot. Bellingham has been variable. Consistently one of the best values anywhere is MAN Free Run Steen at <$10

Shockers from the Barossa are Kalleske and Rusden, and from the Swan in W Australia John Kosovich, all delicious in their fresh style

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Post #: 26

RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 10:09:53 AM

Slye

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisinCowiche

Slye, my Orr wines arrive today. So please wait until I've had a chance to taste and order more Chenin before you do. Thanks!

Says the man who bought up all of the 2015 JBN! :-)

Slightly more seriously, I do find that if I try something that I really like and want more, I will purchase more first and then mention it on a board or post a tasting note.

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Post #: 27

RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 10:12:40 AM

Old Doug

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slye

I recently opened Erica Orr's Chenin old vines from 2019 -- really excellent, particularly at the price of $25 (and even less via BerserkerDay this year, which is when I bought it). This is a dry version, which I think I prefer. Went really well with a chicken/butternut squash Mexican style dish -- so yes, I find wines like this go with lots of different foods. Roast chicken I find to be one of the most versatile dishes for lots of foods, including most whites and most if not all reds.

Indeed - that peculiar 'fruit aspect' that many Chenin Blancs have just cries out for squash; really one of the great combinations. Agreed also on the adaptability of roast chicken; I even lean toward malty, not-too-heavy European beers there too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: grafstrb

You (wineismylife) and me both. Quite frankly, this is a constant battle for us and nearly all white wines --- we buy them, and then drink them right away! Must buy more.

Heh - whites don't have a prayer around here either... Daily drinkers, better white wines = the struggle is real. I've managed to keep a couple 2001 Rieussec Sauternes, but at this point there's not another >$35 bottle of white to be found...

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Post #: 28

RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 10:15:53 AM

grafstrb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Slye

quote:

ORIGINAL: grafstrb

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slye

I have loved some of the South African ones as well. I also am not sure I get the Huet thing -- though people whose palates I respect love them. I do think it may be drinking them too young on my part. I do like good German Riesling though -- so I am not averse to more sweetness per se.

I recently opened Erica Orr's Chenin old vines from 2019 -- really excellent, particularly at the price of $25 (and even less via BerserkerDay this year, which is when I bought it). This is a dry version, which I think I prefer. Went really well with a chicken/butternut squash Mexican style dish -- so yes, I find wines like this go with lots of different foods. Roast chicken I find to be one of the most versatile dishes for lots of foods, including most whites and most if not all reds.

I must have completely missed that offer on BD --- what's the winery's name? {runs off in an attempt to find it} How would you compare this one to its Loire counterparts? (that's always the calculus for me, whenever I venture away from the Loire for Chenin)

Your post reminded me: butternut squash raviolis!! soooooo good with Chenin! (also great with Chardonnay or Viura ) Very specific, I know --- from time to time, Costco will have them in their refrigerated section, and they are very much worth buying (as are the lobster ones).

The winery name is Orr. The BD offer was a three pack sampler -- one each of her Chenin, Merlot, and Grenache. I have not tried the reds yet, but really liked the Chenin. Will try it again this evening to see if a day open makes a big difference (one tasting note suggested it would).

I am afraid I have not had enough experience with Chenin generally, much less Loire chenin to compare. This one has lots of complexity -- i got notes of ground nuts (some marzipan), tropical fruits, pineapple, and really nice acidity, minerality, and salinity. My guess is that this will age well, but again I do not have the extensive experience with Chenin that others might.

Ah-ha! Seeing as how the Orr three pack also included Merlot and Grenache, there's a good chance I opened the offer and quickly backed-out, as I wouldn't have interest in a random domestic Merlot and Grenache. Have either of you guys tried the Merlot and/or Grenache? You're definitely making the Chenin sound enticing!

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Post #: 29

RE: Chenin Blanc . let's talk. - 2/2/2021 10:22:46 AM

ChrisinCowiche

Posts: 7845
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Cowiche, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: grafstrb

Ah-ha! Seeing as how the Orr three pack also included Merlot and Grenache, there's a good chance I opened the offer and quickly backed-out, as I wouldn't have interest in a random domestic Merlot and Grenache. Have either of you guys tried the Merlot and/or Grenache? You're definitely making the Chenin sound enticing!

I know I have had the Grenache. It was at a tasting 4-5 years ago in Seattle. Ron was there too but he drinks a lot and may not remember. The Merlot, yeah hard to know until it I try it, but I ended up with 8 bottles, so will pop one soon, maybe even today. I'll post and send you the note, grafs.

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Post #: 30