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Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 9/24/2023 8:42:05 PM

Eduardo787

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Never had one, I already read reviews here and of pros but I am still trying to imagine the style and longevity of the wine. Is this one of the very structured wines meant for very long cellaring ? From what I have read it seems 2022 is a must buy for this wine and maybe even cheap at $200 a bottle but I am puzzzled about style and msot of all, the cellaring issue. I dont want to continue buying wines that must be forgoten for 20 years, I want to cellar maybe 10 or 15 years at the most. I have no idea if this wine is made as a rock or can be consumed with a few years of cellaring. Any personal experiences ?

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 9/24/2023 10:09:35 PM

jmcmchi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787

Never had one, I already read reviews here and of pros but I am still trying to imagine the style and longevity of the wine. Is this one of the very structured wines meant for very long cellaring ? From what I have read it seems 2022 is a must buy for this wine and maybe even cheap at $200 a bottle but I am puzzzled about style and msot of all, the cellaring issue. I dont want to continue buying wines that must be forgoten for 20 years, I want to cellar maybe 10 or 15 years at the most. I have no idea if this wine is made as a rock or can be consumed with a few years of cellaring. Any personal experiences ?

$200 for a seven year old organization that is heavy on the artistic verbiage?

MIGHT be worth it….might….but no history to reply to your question. The verbiage sounds Napa-esque

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Post #: 2

RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 9/25/2023 5:59:12 AM

khmark7

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Eduardo. Les Carmes is a wine I used to buy back in the day that was more old school in style then suddenly they had new owners I believe, and the style changed, more modern, higher scores suddenly and the prices jumped. No idea about the newer vintages. $200 seems steep considering I purchased the older vintages <$50

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 9/25/2023 7:15:23 AM

Eduardo787

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quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7

Eduardo. Les Carmes is a wine I used to buy back in the day that was more old school in style then suddenly they had new owners I believe, and the style changed, more modern, higher scores suddenly and the prices jumped. No idea about the newer vintages. $200 seems steep considering I purchased the older vintages <$50

Thanks Mark. 2022 vintage seems to be like the best vintage ever for this wine and there is a lot of buzz around. The 2021 is available for $115 and also seems to be very good as well. I have similar problems regarding price increase, but heck, Caymus SS was $99 back in the days and now its $230, Dominus was $100 and now $270 or so. Les Carmes 2022 is not a wine for me to stock up, but maybe buy a few. Your comments about being more modern interests me as I am fond of not so old world style wines.

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 9/25/2023 1:13:10 PM

Poppacork

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We consumed a few bottles of the 2014 back when it could be had for $60. The wine was always open for business. I haven't had any more recent vintages.

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 9/26/2023 11:35:19 AM

Claymonster

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FWIW, I've never had one either but seeing the buzz around 2022, a couple months ago I went ahead and bought en premier for the first time. Two bottles. 2022 is my daughter's birth year, so the idea is to hold them until her 21st birthday. We'll all share one at that time and and then give the other bottle to her as a present. I have high hopes for it, especially because it's the most I've ever paid for a bottle(s). Also, I hope our daughter likes wine too!

Seems like they're fine tuning their process with a mixture of varietals (40% cab franc!), whole bunch ferment, barrels/amphora, etc. It's only 13.5% so not terribly modern from a high alcohol standpoint. If you're looking at 10-15 years for drinking, that puts you into the mid 2030s. CT says the window starts in 2031 so... sure, it should be ready?

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 9/27/2023 3:47:52 AM

Geerath

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People seem to be enjoying that it’s just that little bit different in taste profile to a lot of the others chateaus. Perhaps the influence of the ex burgundy/Rhône wine maker (as I recall) which I can feel, plus of course the cabernet franc which gains favour with the warming temps. These differentiators and the tiny vineyard size are contributing to an upward price trajectory. For me I found the 2016 at 7 years from vintage ; cloudy, brambly, juicy, with fruit purity and a lovely backbone but a little woody, it needs time to integrate, another 7-10 years in bottle from now would be my guess. And I say guess 🙂. I don’t find young bordeaux intimidating, even when they are a bit grizzly, but I wouldn’t be buying these for early drinking, but I would be for the je ne sais quoi

In 2022 it was probably one of, if not the, buy of the vintage

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 9/27/2023 7:50:26 AM

Echinosum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Geerath
In 2022 it was probably one of, if not the, buy of the vintage

The merchant Cru World Wine has a little statistical tool where they plot average critic score against latest traded price for a specific wine, across vintages, and then distinguish between over- and under-valued vintages of that wine according to whether they lie above or below the line of best fit. According to that dubious analysis, the 2022 is the most overvalued of all Carmes' vintages. I would like also to see that compared with a line drawn from a much wider sample of clarets. Another, potentially serious problem, is it assumes a linear relation between price and Parker points, which is not the reality. A couple of years ago, or something like that, I referred to some work which appeared to show that price per Parker point goes up quite sharply above about 94. So you adjusted for that, maybe the 2022 is in fact bargain, as you suggest. If we say it is a 98-pt wine, then the current market price of £133/bt looks cheap for that, as you say.

Though what that plot does show is that the 2020 and the 2022 have very similar critic ratings, and the 2020 is still cheaper. In fact, when I was buying some (rather more modest) 2022s earlier this year, I ended up buying some 2020 too, because you can often still get it cheaper. Though in general I read the 2020 vintage is the most classic, long-lived vintage of the recent run, and so I suspect it might need longer to show its worth. Tasting notes on Carmes seem to bear that out.

A lot of top wines are made these days so you can drink them relatively early, and enjoy them. When you look at the "drink from" dates of various critics, they mostly say 2030. But I reckon to drink even my most basic claret at 8+ years, even though multiple sources would suggest drink from 3 or 4. So will a top wine really exhibit its quality when drunk at that age? Or could you get the same enjoyment factor from something a lot cheaper, to drink at that age?

There is a common piece of advice on this forum that in general the very best wines, of claret/rhone/burgundy type, do not tend to exhibit why they are so much better than the next level down until after a long time in bottle, generally 25 years. And I once pointed to a study, showing graphs of drinking enjoyability by age for a selection of top wines sourced from tasting note databases, that tended to bear this strongly out. It also tended to show a dip in enjoyability in the mid-teens of these very top wines, that dreaded dumb phase.

So your question amounts to, if people are now rating Carmes among the very top clarets, averaging 98 pts from critics in 2020 and 2022, has it somehow managed to evade this general principle, that you can't really recognise a 98pt red wine as such until it is 25 yrs old?

< Message edited by Echinosum -- 9/27/2023 8:02:01 AM >

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 9/27/2023 9:36:06 AM

BRR

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You've probably seen this already, Eduardo, but a taster (who drinks a lot of Bordeaux) posted this:

My colleagues and I hosted a Carmes H-B mini vertical last night to redefine the odds against the fabulous 2022 vintage. We can't put 100 points everywhere.

1) 2022 100/100
2) 2016 99/100
3) 2020-2021 98-99/100
4) 2018 98/100
5) 2014-2017-2019 97/100
6) 2005 96/100
7) 2012 94/100
8) 2013 91/100

(2021 and 2022 tasted on samples)

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 9/27/2023 12:13:38 PM

Eduardo787

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Thanks to all for your response. I decided to buy the 2021 based on tasting notes and finding a much better QPR than the 2022s.

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 9/27/2023 2:49:42 PM

Geerath

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Hi Echinosum, My comment is in the context of the vintage itself, if you look at the the wine relative to its peers (top 20 wines based on critics interpretations) it’s qpr is probably round about the best, with maybe Montrose in there as well. On release it was 110 pounds for 6 in bond (roughly). Consider also, that we are in a global world and access to UK markets is not possible for all. Supply of back vintages in other markets can quickly dry up or prices inflate and so the Cru website may be constrained in its universal applicability.

I agree with you about 2020, in bottle tasting is more foreboding than the previous year, definitely. That lovely light and shade of vintage variation and thankfully a reason we have cellars. I also agree with you that there is a correlation between price and earlier consumption. With the use of a corivin (personal experience), after the initial extraction it seems to slow ox the wine (over several months) into a better condition/ more advanced state, opening a range of possibilities across many categories depending on what one is seeking in the act of consumption.

Hard to base a 98pt score on a future eventuality for any wine, even a first growth, when the future doesn’t exist 🙂

< Message edited by Geerath -- 9/27/2023 4:45:18 PM >

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 9/27/2023 6:10:29 PM

Endodr

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I purchased a single bottle at the en primeur price of $190. I’m not sure why. Maybe I was persuaded by the hype. It’s not a producer that I buy every year. As I get older, I hope that I live long enough to enjoy it.

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 9/27/2023 8:49:30 PM

Wine Grove

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$200 is silly.

My personal opinion get a case of Leoville Barton or some other “super 2nds” at half the price, rather than 6 bottles each at $200 for Les carmes. Sure carmes is good but very similar to domaine chevalier and that can be found for $70?
If not Leo Barton maybe lynch bages , or calon segur, I mean the list goes on for better or equal Bordeaux wines at much lower prices….just sayin

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 1/25/2024 2:39:29 AM

Geerath

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I thought I’d update this thread, since last posting I’ve had the 2005 and the 2018 CHB (in addition to the 16, which the 16 was so so when tried) . The 2005 I bought for maybe 35 usd. It was so elegant when tried in December, light weight and savoury. It has a very mild thinness (NOT A DIP) in the mid palate, and it delicately carries with medium+ acid, the refined fruit, not overpowering the mouth, which I personally associate with low alcohol elegant wines, and finishes long. It’s before the recent change over in wine makers, but clearly cabernet franc done well, and a quality terroir. I loved it.

The 2018 almost redefined young Bordeaux for me, at 13.5% for that vintage is a standout which I’m sure a lot of people (myself included) think of as a6 rich, round, hedonistic vintage on average. It’s not that though. It’s got this thin juicy Burgundian quality (like the 16) but with minimal oak influence (that I can tell), and it’s long, maybe a little high on the PH side(meaning low acid), but only very fractionally, but you can tell it’s going to be elegant, fragrant and stately.

This is the wine that I think many want to see, which is of a lighter weight, when we tire of the showy, round, rich, concentrated styles. Previously I was on the fence with CHB, but I’m backing this wine now based on the last two tastings, until I have a reason not to.

I’m not a fermentation nerd , but I have read the stalks /whole bunch CHB now use in fermentation keeps the alcohol low, is any other chateau doing this in the top wines in Bordeaux?

BTW, Happy new year everyone!! and hope that dry January is keeping you all in check 😬. I’d love to send you all photos of summer on Sydney harbour, but the information sharing paranoia keeps me in check 🤦🏻‍♀️😂

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 1/25/2024 8:04:15 AM

WineGuyCO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wine Grove

$200 is silly.

My personal opinion get a case of Leoville Barton or some other “super 2nds” at half the price, rather than 6 bottles each at $200 for Les carmes. Sure carmes is good but very similar to domaine chevalier and that can be found for $70?
If not Leo Barton maybe lynch bages , or calon segur, I mean the list goes on for better or equal Bordeaux wines at much lower prices….just sayin

+1,000

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 1/27/2024 4:26:10 AM

Endodr

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I tried the 2021 Les Carmes at the recent UGC tasting and thought it was the WOTN. I enjoyed it more than the Lynch Bages or Leoville Barton. I added a few bottles to my cellar at $154.00.

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 1/27/2024 10:54:33 AM

Eduardo787

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Endodr

I tried the 2021 Les Carmes at the recent UGC tasting and thought it was the WOTN. I enjoyed it more than the Lynch Bages or Leoville Barton. I added a few bottles to my cellar at $154.00.

If you are located in the USA you can buy them at winex.com at $115. Bought 6 there a couple of months ago

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 1/27/2024 8:18:41 PM

khmark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787

quote:

ORIGINAL: Endodr

I tried the 2021 Les Carmes at the recent UGC tasting and thought it was the WOTN. I enjoyed it more than the Lynch Bages or Leoville Barton. I added a few bottles to my cellar at $154.00.

If you are located in the USA you can buy them at winex.com at $115. Bought 6 there a couple of months ago

Binnys in Chicago also had it for $115

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RE: Need input from Les Carmes Haut Brion - 1/31/2024 7:45:43 PM

sastewart

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We have had several vintages of the wine going back to 2000 before the new owners significant investments. I think they have upgraded the quality significantly. We visited the winery last June along with a number of other Bordeaux properties including Chateaux Latour. Les Carmes with an urban location, high percentage of Cab Franc, stems, amphoras and ultimately a very different flavor profile was the most unique of all the wines we tasted.
Prices are getting too high for me but it is a beautiful wine!

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Post #: 19