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RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/19/2023 12:48:02 PM

jonathanknowles

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Joined: 7/10/2017
From: Vienna, Austria (but from England)
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Hard to say what's fair or reasonable. Everyone has their personal thresholds and it's obviously necessary to make a profit.

When it gets up to 200% it starts being sad and disappointing for me (€20 retail costing then €60).

Here in Austria most restaurants at least for austrian wines have less than 100% markup, with somewhat more for other european wines. There's lots of gems in France and Italy where you can find wines for less then 100% markup.

(in reply to WineGuyCO)

Post #: 31

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/19/2023 2:02:26 PM

DoubleD1969

Posts: 3594
Joined: 8/19/2008
From: New Jersey
Status: online

You can’t compare European restaurants to US - completely different economics from the cost of the space to the bottle. Even at a fancy restaurant last year in Edinburgh, a 2015 Chambolle-Musigny was about 120 euros. No gratuity.

(in reply to jonathanknowles)

Post #: 32

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/19/2023 2:03:14 PM

Blue Shorts

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From: Santa Cruz
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quote:

Everyone has their personal thresholds and it's obviously necessary to make a profit.

Agree. Personally, I pretty much stopped buying wine at restaurants. If I go out and have wine with dinner, I want a really good wine, but I'm not always willing to spend 2x - 3X+. So I either bring my own and pay corkage, or more often just have a cocktail and/or a glass of wine.

If I had unlimited funds, I might not care about the big price, so YMMV. Like you said..."Everyone has their personal thresholds"

(in reply to jonathanknowles)

Post #: 33

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/19/2023 5:14:02 PM

wine247365

Posts: 1009
Joined: 5/1/2012
From: OC, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blue Shorts

quote:

Everyone has their personal thresholds and it's obviously necessary to make a profit.

Agree. Personally, I pretty much stopped buying wine at restaurants. If I go out and have wine with dinner, I want a really good wine, but I'm not always willing to spend 2x - 3X+. So I either bring my own and pay corkage, or more often just have a cocktail and/or a glass of wine.

If I had unlimited funds, I might not care about the big price, so YMMV. Like you said..."Everyone has their personal thresholds"

THIS! Usually, it's a much better wine than anything on the wine list that is 2 x or more times what I paid.

_____________________________

The number of bottles I buy is nothing in comparison to the bottles I don’t buy. Let’s have a little perspective please.

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Post #: 34

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/19/2023 6:53:14 PM

fanglangzhe

Posts: 374
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jonathanknowles

Hard to say what's fair or reasonable. Everyone has their personal thresholds and it's obviously necessary to make a profit.

When it gets up to 200% it starts being sad and disappointing for me (€20 retail costing then €60).

Here in Austria most restaurants at least for austrian wines have less than 100% markup, with somewhat more for other european wines. There's lots of gems in France and Italy where you can find wines for less then 100% markup.

Yes, I also find restaurant markups to be very reasonable in many European countries (less than 100% over retail), especially in places such as Portugal & Spain. And Austria also as you mentioned. As a wine consumer, I think its totally fair game to make such cross-country comparisons.

(in reply to jonathanknowles)

Post #: 35

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/20/2023 4:48:18 AM

Echinosum

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Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WineGuyCO
Being a pretty good chef/cook myself most restaurants can’t use the quality ingredients I use 100% of the time. I’m not sure where I could even find Duck L’Orange, Vitello Saltimbocca, Greek Style Lambchops, Japanese A5 Wagyu, Handmade Tagliatelle with Bolognese Sauce that cooks for six hours or other favorites I make on a regular basis. Colorado is not exactly a Culinary destination by any means.

This is another, but kind of related, issue.

There is something to be said for paying someone to carry the skilled conversion of cheap ingredients into delicious food through skilled labour, and non-domestic equipment. That is something I seek out in a restaurant. So I love to go, for example, to a South Indian restaurant, to have masala dosa - rice pancake with spicy potatoes - very cheap ingredients turned into something magic that is hard to do at home. Well if you are a family who east dosa all the time, you may have the special grinder and frying plate to do that. But my attempts to make it at home with suboptimal equipment were pretty dire. And it's among the cheapest restaurant meal you can have. And you wouldn't want a bottle of fine wine with it.

But a piece of expensive fish, a tender leg of lamb, etc is quite easy to turn into a delicious meal at home without specialist equipment. And drink with a bottle of fine wine.

So, on the whole, I don't often go to restaurants where a bottle of fine wine would be my choice to drink with the meal. I do that at home.

(in reply to WineGuyCO)

Post #: 36

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/20/2023 5:14:33 AM

jmcmchi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum

quote:

ORIGINAL: WineGuyCO
Being a pretty good chef/cook myself most restaurants can’t use the quality ingredients I use 100% of the time. I’m not sure where I could even find Duck L’Orange, Vitello Saltimbocca, Greek Style Lambchops, Japanese A5 Wagyu, Handmade Tagliatelle with Bolognese Sauce that cooks for six hours or other favorites I make on a regular basis. Colorado is not exactly a Culinary destination by any means.

This is another, but kind of related, issue.

There is something to be said for paying someone to carry the skilled conversion of cheap ingredients into delicious food through skilled labour, and non-domestic equipment. That is something I seek out in a restaurant. So I love to go, for example, to a South Indian restaurant, to have masala dosa - rice pancake with spicy potatoes - very cheap ingredients turned into something magic that is hard to do at home. Well if you are a family who east dosa all the time, you may have the special grinder and frying plate to do that. But my attempts to make it at home with suboptimal equipment were pretty dire. And it's among the cheapest restaurant meal you can have. And you wouldn't want a bottle of fine wine with it.

But a piece of expensive fish, a tender leg of lamb, etc is quite easy to turn into a delicious meal at home without specialist equipment. And drink with a bottle of fine wine.

.

Yes

< Message edited by jmcmchi -- 10/20/2023 5:17:12 AM >

(in reply to Echinosum)

Post #: 37

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/20/2023 6:00:39 AM

Paul852

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From: Hong Kong
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum
So I love to go, for example, to a South Indian restaurant, to have masala dosa - rice pancake with spicy potatoes - very cheap ingredients turned into something magic that is hard to do at home. Well if you are a family who east dosa all the time, you may have the special grinder and frying plate to do that. But my attempts to make it at home with suboptimal equipment were pretty dire. And it's among the cheapest restaurant meal you can have. And you wouldn't want a bottle of fine wine with it.

I am lucky in that my wife is Tamilian so she has the gear (and also the knack of how to ferment the batter - we joke that it depends what's on her hands when she kneads it!). I actually prefer it with a longer fermentation than is common - we call it "sour dough dosa". Masala dosa is good, but also a simple cheese dosa - in India they would use something a bit like mozzarella, but I quite like it with lots of grated parmesan melted in (a sort of Italian fusion dosa).

A simple cast iron skillet is fine as the cooking plate (I've got reasonably competent at this part), but it's much harder to do if you don't have a flame hob.

And you're right that fine wine isn't really appropriate, but we've come to enjoy a bottle of less fancy, slightly off-dry (often with a bit of muscadelle in the blend) white Bordeaux with this and many of her dishes.

< Message edited by Paul852 -- 10/20/2023 6:02:42 AM >

(in reply to Echinosum)

Post #: 38

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/20/2023 7:16:11 AM

Stoic Warrior

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Any more I rarely see that benchmark 200-300% markup. 3, 4, 500% seems more and more common. Unacceptable.
Waiter: "Would you like to order some wine, sir?"
Diner: "Yes I would, but your prices are just way out of line. Just a carafe d'eau, thank you very much."

Early in this thread someone (gruqqpt) wrote, "...and it does not encourage eating out if you enjoy wine." Too true.

(in reply to Paul852)

Post #: 39

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/20/2023 8:14:12 AM

gotfunk

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From: Oregon
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum
There is something to be said for paying someone to carry the skilled conversion of cheap ingredients into delicious food through skilled labour, and non-domestic equipment. That is something I seek out in a restaurant.

I suspect this is a primary reason many balk at excessive wine markups. The added value of storing bottles that can be readily bought at retail and providing table service doesn't come anywhere close to the amount charged. Using a flat percentage only makes it worse and discourages spending up the ladder.

On the increasingly rare occasions when I buy wine off the list, it's at places that charge well below 200% and stock interesting wines I can't easily find at retail.

(in reply to Echinosum)

Post #: 40

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/20/2023 8:23:12 AM

grizzlymarmot

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I'm not talking about bottles of wine right now. But I think that when tasting menus have the add on for wine that it is nearly always worth it. I just checked Le Bernadin's latest. $310 for the chef's tasting, $480 with the wine pairing. 8 wines to sample - highlights Bollinger, La Grande Année, Aÿ, Brut, Champagne, France 2014; Gevrey-Chambertin, Chanson Père et Fils, Burgundy, France 2019, Sainte-Croix-du-Mont, Château La Rame, Réserve du Château, Bordeaux, France 2015.

(in reply to fanglangzhe)

Post #: 41

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/20/2023 11:31:16 AM

hankj

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I don't tend to buy a lot of bottles from restaurants. For one, nearly all nicer restaurants in Seattle allow corkage. Some people bitch about corkage fees being too high, but the way I figure it, my high quality aged wine of good provenance is already a sunk cost. I'll gladly pay 40 bucks for somebody to open it etc. Way more happy with that than $70 for something that's $22.99 down at Total Wine.

I'm also happy to drink other things at restaurants. I like having a cocktail. I like a nice beer or cider. I like a glass of wine. Why should I pay a big multiplier for a middling wine when I can. Have a very nice rye Manhattan and an excellent glass of beer for less?

I also don't in the least feel chapped about high bev mark ups in restaurants - on wine or anything else. I voluntarily choose to go into a free market capitalist establishment. They should charge whatever makes them the most money. If I don't feel comfortable with that price, that doesn't mean that I'm being ripped off or that they're jerks somehow. Free market capitalism is what put the money I'm spending in my pocket in the first place. I'll just go somewhere else or drink something different.

< Message edited by hankj -- 10/20/2023 11:38:55 AM >

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Post #: 42

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/22/2023 5:32:13 PM

Sourdough

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From: Austin, Texas
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I will often pay for paired wines for a tasting menu -even though they are generally rather dear, but I pretty much opt for beer if the wine price is much over twice retail. And I will not hesitate to explain why. And no I will not pay bottle price for a single glass.

Met friends last night at a French bistro owned by a French raised restaraunteur we have dined with for years. Good food, of course, but wines are priced from about 1.4 to 2 X retail to encourage people to order wine. $10 wines go for about $20 and $50 wines for about $75. That is highly acceptable to me.

(in reply to hankj)

Post #: 43

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/22/2023 7:09:03 PM

jonboy74

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My wife always enjoys having a glass of bubbles before we eat, and a glass of wine with the meal. Except she never drinks the wine while eating, its always after she is done. So I finally convinced her we should get a glass of bubbles when we arrive, and drink the good stuff when we get home. Makes me smile when I see the $100 bottle I'm decanting at home on the menu for $300 :)

(in reply to Sourdough)

Post #: 44

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/22/2023 7:12:44 PM

ImUrHuckleberry

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I very rarely bother with wine when out to eat in New Hampshire. Most places that I've been to rarely have anything on the wine list that I want to drink. It's almost always a supermarket wine starting around $60/bottle. I've had the best luck with Champagnes.

(in reply to jonboy74)

Post #: 45

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/22/2023 8:02:21 PM

Ibetian

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From: Sarasota, FL and the Berkshires
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When I first read this thread, my initial reaction was that I don’t care about the mark up per se. If I think a wine on the list for $100 will enhance our enjoyment of the meal and I’m willing and able to pay the price, who cares if the restaurant paid $50 or $10 for it?

But on reflection I realize that this is not quite true.

For many years we lived in NJ, where many good restaurants offer $0 corkage. Liquor licenses are limited and expensive, so some sell no alcohol and encourage patrons to BYO. In those days we had very busy lives and ate out often.

In Sarasota where we now live 7-8 months/year, plenty of good places offer reasonable corkage, usually about $25. We live downtown, can walk to 20+ good places and eat dinner out 1-3 times per week.

In MA where we live in the summer, corkage is illegal, and we live a 15-30 minute drive from most restaurants. We have dinner out at a restaurant about once a month, most often before going to the theater. We go out to lunch often, mostly at the golf club, where we have an annual minimum. But the food is good, reasonably priced and the setting is beautiful. But we usually don’t drink at lunch, maybe a beer or a glass of wine sometimes.

Our most common dinners out in the Berkshires are picnics on the lawn at Tanglewood. We can bring our own wine and glasses for free, eat and drink before the concert, sit in the shed and metabolize the wine for 2-3 hours and drive the 2 miles home without issue.

When we are traveling and having dinner out, I will seek out the wine list online in advance and research it on CT to find better options.

So though I don’t care much about markups when I’m sitting at the table looking at a list I couldn’t study in advance, based on the last several decades, two things are clear: we eat dinner out more often if we can drink our own wine at a low or no corkage, and we are more likely to dine out if we can walk or drive a short distance home, especially if the drive is separated from the wine consumption by a couple of hours. So cost does matter (duh, basic economics), as does safety.

The restaurant business is tough, with a high failure. An apparently high gross profit doesn’t necessarily mean a net profit. I don’t begrudge someone who provides me with a valuable service an opportunity to earn a profit.

But in the end I agree with what most have said here. For wine geeks like us, we care a lot about what we drink. And we are much more likely to do business with restaurants that offer us good quality wines at a fair price.

_____________________________

“I was a glutton at the banquet and spilt the finest wine,” Mick Jagger, Wandering Spirit

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RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/22/2023 11:57:22 PM

nwinther

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From: Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum

You complain about the mark-up on wine. What about the mark-up on a cup of tea? That's far more outrageous.

Agree. But then again, with tea they have to boil water, maybe even bag the tea (or egg or whatever they do) and so on. The work involved is similar if not more, compared to opening a bottle of wine. To some extent the "cook" the tea. They don't brew the wine. So there's that.

And as others have said, there is probably also an "absolute figure" you will put on someone serving you - anything - really. There is no more work, storage etc. in a Petrus than a Beringer Cabernet. And while the mark-up is similar percentage-wise, the absolute figure is astronomical on the former.

I suppose the question should be "how much would you pay for wine at a restaurant, if you knew the retail price was X".

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RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/23/2023 12:21:36 AM

fanglangzhe

Posts: 374
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nwinther
I suppose the question should be "how much would you pay for wine at a restaurant, if you knew the retail price was X".

Yes, and that is exactly what was asked in the OP.

(in reply to nwinther)

Post #: 48

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/23/2023 8:26:11 AM

hankj

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From: Seattle, WA
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quote:

with tea they have to boil water, maybe even bag the tea (or egg or whatever they do) and so on. The work involved is similar if not more, compared to opening a bottle of wine.

Back when I supported myself through college waiting tables, tea orders, as noted above, were the worst. Or rather second worst, the people who ordered hot water with lemon (zero $ cost) and expected the full tea setup with it should go to a special ring of hell.

You are super slammed, running like crazy to deal with your nine tables that were all sat at the same time. Table orders 3 teas as beverage. You dash back to the service area. Bus boys didn't restock the teapots. Or they did, but there's only two lids. Tea orders more than anything else make you run back to the dish area and start washing things. You need to fill all the pots, and then dump them out and refill them. You can skip this step but a lot of tea drinkers send the water back if they feel like it's not hot enough. Then saucers and cups go on the tray, the appropriate spoons, tea sets, little ramekin with lemon, a sugar set if it's not already on the table. You find the little pitchers and fill them with fussy little amounts of milk out of the big old milk dispenser thing. With all of these little components, the likelihood that things are not prepped, or were but are now cashed is high. And you go on the tea treasure hunt.

It's all little and wobbly and takes up a lot of space on the tray, so you have a big tray that you have to move slowly with when you want to sprint because everyone else's food is getting cold in the window.

And there's also fielding all of the questions about tea, what do you have, is what arrived at the table correct, do you have something different, etc. Tea people more often than others seem to want a sommelier experience.

And those three cups of tea added $13.50 to the bill. It's the average hassle of two wine services at 1/10 of the reward.

I'm not at all saying people shouldn't ordered tea, just that in the workflow in a restaurant when you are deep in the weeds, it's like a dagger in the heart.

_____________________________

There are those who'd call us a bunch of sots but we don't see ourselves like that. We see ourselves as hobbyists. - Kevin Barry

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Post #: 49

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/23/2023 11:25:44 PM

nwinther

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From: Denmark
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Wow, even more work than I imagined...

I used my own experience with wine for dinner. It's a lot easier to take out a bottle of wine, pop the cork (or cap), and then pour, than it is to, say, boil potatoes - or even water! So I prefer to bring the wine.

And I don't want to diminish the job of a sommelier - but the manual work and preparation part of the job is quite easy - and most restaurants don't have a sommelier. The waiter will just bring you the wine, maybe make a ritual having me taste the wine, and then pour the first glass. I'd say that any other part of the waiters job is more difficult.

BTW, It's my (limited) experience that wine in restaurants in Australia doesn't have a significant markup. Although it's 10 years ago now, I remember visiting a restaurant in Bathurst, ordering a Penfolds Bin Something and then a week later seeing the same wine one dollar (AUS) cheaper at a bottle shop.

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RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/24/2023 2:59:38 AM

Franklin 10

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quote:

ORIGINAL: S1

Also remember that restaurants are not paying retail prices.
Also remember that very few restaurants serve wines with age (prob deserves its own thread).

That being said, wine programs keep many high-end restaurants afloat. I remember an interview in which Rene R said that Noma could not work without the wine program.
We rarely eat out because we like wine with dinner and can't stomach the combination of too much $ and too young.

This.

When we do dine out, as a rule we will be attracted to non-franchise restaurants with interesting wine lists and expect there to be a few gems of relatively good value (something mid-priced that we don't have at home and may not know anything about).

I'll point to the price of a wine on the menu (typically in the $50-$110 range) while asking "I was thinking of something like this, do you have a recommendation for something I may not have tried?" (a technique I learned from my dad). The point is to show my interest in both type and price range and invite a recommendation for the menu gem that matches.

Of course, I then have to decide whether the recommendation is based on what they are trying to "move" or really intended to please. I've learned to not attempt trying to judge the taste/skill of the server because I am so frequently frankly wrong (both ways, but typically I'm pleasantly surprised, YMMV).

So, to answer the question from the OP, I'd agree with the predominant opinion that 2.5-3x is what I expect to pay. However I'm sure I've paid more, often paid less, and been happy both ways.

As has been mentioned: its more of staying in my budget and not overanalyzing the cost basis of the bread, tea, or wine. I'm pleased to have the chance to enjoy dining out from time to time, and thankful for those are motivated to be in that difficult industry.

< Message edited by Franklin 10 -- 10/24/2023 3:11:19 AM >

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(in reply to S1)

Post #: 51

RE: what is fair/acceptable restaurant markup? - 10/24/2023 9:34:30 AM

gruqqt@gmail.com

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If the question were rephrased. At what point does the markup or the limited plonk selection or the 4oz tumbler glasses tell you that the owner has no respect for you as a person who enjoys wine with a meal? If the owner is clueless about dining, insulting guests with animal cracker wines and glasses and giraffe markups, I wish him well with his regulars. How many places have Libbey like thick 4 ouncers when an Ikea stem is a few bucks? No one on this site would treat guests that way.

(in reply to jonathanknowles)

Post #: 52