Cayuse: high acid or low acid?

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Cayuse: high acid or low acid? - 10/24/2023 10:31:48 AM

BRR

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Hi, All. Lots of very experienced Cayuse drinkers here, so I'm posting this. I seem to remember, but yet can't find, a post or discussion where it was pointed out that Cayuse wines were made with very low acidity / very high pH. Am I completely mistaken? I'm asking because I've seen some recent TNs indicating high acidity, but I think (unless I'm dead wrong and then I'll just be dead embarrassed) they're probably perceiving tannin, perhaps? I always find a very distinct mouthfeel and I (again, could be wrong) thought that was because they were decidedly low to no acid. Help!

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RE: Cayuse: high acid or low acid? - 10/24/2023 2:23:02 PM

DoubleD1969

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I think you need a high amount of acid to balance the rich fruit and tannic structure. Kinda like a very good Amarone. Otherwise, you end up with a flabby wine. What do I know.

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RE: Cayuse: high acid or low acid? - 10/24/2023 8:50:43 PM

Hollowine

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It has long been a point of debate about the aging potential of Cayuse due to the relatively low acid compared to similar red wines. Some of this is generally attributed to wines made in the Rocks District of Milton Freewater, some of this is attributed to the reductive style in which Cayuse is generally made. There is a fair bit of debate about this topic, and even Billo fielded a question to this fact when he was on a panel of Rocks District Winemakers at Hospice du Rhone 2022 in Paso Robles.

I know your question had more to do with the mouthfeel and perception of acid. My Chemistry skills are a bit aged, but I know a lot of this comes down to the difference between pH and TA (Titratable Acidity), which are two different beasts in winemaking. I did a quick search and found an article that may help...(you sleep).

pH, TA, and acid adjustments

FWIW, I've written many TN's on Cayuse and never once made reference to acidity regarding mouthfeel.

< Message edited by Hollowine -- 10/24/2023 8:52:07 PM >

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RE: Cayuse: high acid or low acid? - 10/25/2023 9:49:23 AM

BRR

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Very interesting, Hollowine, thank you. So my memory wasn't too far off: Cayuse wines generally have lower acidity than their counterparts, mainly in a decision by the winemaking team and how they make wine.

A few examples of the TNs (not from you, but others) in my feed:

(on the 2016 Cailloux Vyd. Syrah) "....continues to open with air, a sturdy acidic streak carries flavors of red cherry..."

(on the 2019 Cailloux Vyd. Syrah) " Very flavorful syrah with nice acidity." and, "Complex, nice bright acidity balancing the darker, earthier flavors."

(on the 2019 God Only Knows Grenache) "Light and lively acid on the palate."

(on the 2014 Cailloux Vyd. Syrah) "Supple and approachable with ample acidity."

In NO WAY is this question an, "Aha! I gotcha! You're wrong!" type of question. I simply kept seeing these descriptors of acidity in Cayuse wines and kept thinking that maybe I was wrong all this time, etc. etc. That's all.

< Message edited by BRR -- 10/25/2023 9:59:41 AM >

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RE: Cayuse: high acid or low acid? - 10/25/2023 9:49:38 PM

Hollowine

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I think it may come down to TA vs. pH, but again, my chemistry skills are a bit rusty since college, I've been more a physics nerd in later life.

Which would lend to the quantum postulate a wine is both low in acid and high in acid, you can't know until you observe the wine. Therefore...in the interest of science, we should all observe as many wines as possible!

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RE: Cayuse: high acid or low acid? - 10/26/2023 11:44:36 AM

Slye

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I am not equipped to comment on the pH versus TA issue, but my perception is that the amount of acid (or things that taste like acid) with Cayuse vary with vintage. 2005 and 2006 (if I remember correctly) always seem to me to be a bit more flabby and low acid. I have not opened some of the more recent vintages, but have had some poured by others and my sense is that the wine making style has changed a bit to be a bit more balanced with a bit more acid. I have no idea if this is in fact the case, but it seems to be the result on the palate when tasting. I had a 2016 BF at a Cayuse wine dinner co-hosted by Christophe, and I was amazed at how balanced it was compared to most Cayuse syrahs I have had that young. Though the change seemed to be as much about a more integrated and less in your face "funk" than I normally experience with young Cayuse syrahs. By contrast, at the same dinner they poured a 2016 Tribe Syrah (Horsepower) which was much funkier than the BF. So perhaps they are doing something different with each line, or perhaps it is the vineyard, or who knows?

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RE: Cayuse: high acid or low acid? - 10/29/2023 2:59:35 AM

Echinosum

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Some cellars publish technical sheets for wines they sell which tell you exactly what the pH is. But Cayuse doesn't.

Cayuse does publish a collection of professional tasting notes for their wines. I clicked the wine at the top of the list, a syrah, and a lot of the tasting notes mentioned acidity.

What is a high acidity to some extent depends on context, at least in terms of what our mouth perceives as such. Indeed, there are some international guidelines on what is a "dry riesling", and it depends upon both the acid and the sugar level. A sugar level that would be "medium" at one pH can be "dry" at a higher acidity, ie lower pH (edited to correct). If you took the sugar out of a very nice medium spatlese, it would come over as horribly acidic. So there is that confusing issue of balance. Whilst red wines on the whole don't contain much sugar, still there is an issue of balance with other constituents in the wine.

< Message edited by Echinosum -- 10/30/2023 8:53:53 AM >

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RE: Cayuse: high acid or low acid? - 10/29/2023 2:11:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hollowine

I think it may come down to TA vs. pH, but again, my chemistry skills are a bit rusty since college, I've been more a physics nerd in later life.

Admitting you have a problem is the first step.

I find Cayuse wines to be low(ish) acid but incredibly balanced (funk balances fruit maybe?), And Brother Hollow has been kind enough to demonstrate their ageability,

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RE: Cayuse: high acid or low acid? - 11/3/2023 7:55:30 PM

hankj

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General public wine tasters are more clueless about whether a given wine is acidic or not than just about all other aspects of tasting. So many notes declaring low acid wines "zippy" etc. Usual they are convoluting freshness in the fruit with acidity.

In my sensory evaluation classes the instructors always said that the somm method for assessing acid is salivation. Higher acid wines cause your mouth to water. Lower acid wined don't.

Cayuse is in general fairly low acid. Maybe some bottles are exceptions, but definitely wouldn't label it high acid.

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