Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restaurant wine prices

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[Poll]

Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restaurant wine prices

Pay 3xs retail for Zalto glasses - Yes grape specific

7% (1)

Pay 2xs retail for Riedel restaurant glasses - Yes grape specific

92% (13)

Pay 3xs retail for Baccarat glasses - Not grape specific

0% (0)

Total Votes : 14

(last vote on : 12/8/2023 4:30:07 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restaurant... - 11/24/2023 3:30:05 PM

daviladc

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Here's a question for you. We're in Paris this week and have been to four different Michelin Star restaurants that have three different wine pricing models. My wife and I have been round and round with what we should expect. I'd love some feedback from my fellow CTers.

Which one do you prefer? Why?

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/24/2023 6:56:57 PM

Paul852

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I really don't believe that the brand of a wine glass makes much difference to the taste of the wine. For the same budget the second option allows you to taste wines that are 50% more expensive. To me that's a no-brainer.

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Post #: 2

RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/24/2023 7:26:03 PM

recotte

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul852

I really don't believe that the brand of a wine glass makes much difference to the taste of the wine. For the same budget the second option allows you to taste wines that are 50% more expensive. To me that's a no-brainer.

What he said!

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Post #: 3

RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/24/2023 8:26:46 PM

jmcmchi

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I’ve tried Riedel variety specific against generic, and the difference justified the price. Can’t talk to Zalto or Baccarat vs Riedel but a 50% difference in price of wine? Can’t imagine a glass making that much difference at the margin

< Message edited by jmcmchi -- 11/24/2023 8:27:46 PM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/24/2023 11:59:21 PM

diphthong

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Glassware is a very difficult issue for restaurants. Have never worked in a restaurant that had adequate storage for wine glasses actively in use. Hotels yes, restos no. Deployed/in use wine glassware takes up a tremendous use of space that a vast majority of operators would rather devote to something else that increases the bottom line in a more obvious fashion. You can take glasses in/out of storage for the weekends or a big wine shindig but the simple act of doing so increases breakage. Always a very fine line between having too much and not enough and wine glassware gets beat up on both ends. Either in a rush to break out (and potentially wash and/or polish) or the excess gets in the way (resto staffs are the spiritual/physical equals of the Samsonite gorillas famed for destruction). It's the stem that snaps off 9 out of 10 times.

Varietal specific glassware such as Riedels are fantastic. Can't deny they make a difference. Personally? Prefer to invest more in affordable decanters in differing shapes and get more bottles (including the occasional white)
opened and poured into decanters for service (drawing off sediment for older wines, chatting up guests, airing newer, massive wines) while maintaining an all-purpose glass along with Burgundy, Bordeaux, dessert wine/port, Champagne flutes. The decanters occasionally get chipped or take one on the chin but many restaurant staffers aren't as comfy walking with one decanter vs 10 wine glasses in two hands. Decanters tend to slow them down just enough. If I've gotta choose (and I suppose I do) between varietally correct stemware numbering in the 7-10 different styles of glasses vs more decanters, decanters win-hands down. If you wanna have a special 6-pack of Riesling glasses for the VIP's that come in every Wednesday and crush the Zind-Humbrecht offerings, have at it.

If we're talking higher-end/Coravined by the glass stuff, sure...have 3-4 glasses for your 2010 Côte-Rôtie offering. Still gonna take up a ton of space somewhere.

< Message edited by diphthong -- 11/25/2023 12:05:41 AM >

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/25/2023 1:37:41 AM

daviladc

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We own both Riedel and Zalto glasses at home.

For Burgundy glasses:
Riedel cost $15
Zalto cost $100

There's a major difference to the investment in a wine program when choosing Zalto. But does that make a $80 wine worth $200+???

Still on the fence!

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/25/2023 8:26:24 AM

grafstrb

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How weird, and -- quite frankly, déclassé -- of a restaurant, particularly a Michelin-starred restaurant.

To be clear, I "get it," but it's still lands wrong for me.

... maybe I'm reading this wrong ... have you been to a restaurant with this pricing model?

< Message edited by grafstrb -- 11/25/2023 8:28:01 AM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/25/2023 10:25:19 AM

ChrisinCowiche

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I'd love to do this at home blindfolded with the same wine. My luck, my cat would knock the $100 glass on the floor with his tail before I get to taste it.

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/25/2023 11:26:09 AM

ImUrHuckleberry

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Places will charge different prices for the same bottle based on the stems? Is that really a thing? (Forgive me, I live in the foodie/wine wasteland called New Hampshire.)

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Post #: 9

RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/27/2023 7:22:15 AM

wineismylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grafstrb

How weird, and -- quite frankly, déclassé -- of a restaurant, particularly a Michelin-starred restaurant.

To be clear, I "get it," but it's still lands wrong for me.

... maybe I'm reading this wrong ... have you been to a restaurant with this pricing model?

Feel free to put me in this camp. To coin a phrase, How gauche.

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/27/2023 7:52:33 AM

DoubleD1969

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It would be interesting if the scenario was slightly different:
a) Pay 2.5 x retail for Riedel glasses
b) Pay 1.5 x retail for clunky, thick wine glasses

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Post #: 11

RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/27/2023 9:03:50 AM

recotte

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grafstrb

How weird, and -- quite frankly, déclassé -- of a restaurant, particularly a Michelin-starred restaurant.

To be clear, I "get it," but it's still lands wrong for me.

... maybe I'm reading this wrong ... have you been to a restaurant with this pricing model?

My interpretation was that he didn't go to a single restaurant that had three pricing options for their wine list, but rather he had been to multiple restaurants and observed the differing pricing models that seemed to correlate with the stemware. Restaurant A had the 3x Retail + Zalto combo, Restaurant B had 2x Retail + Riedel, etc. But maybe I'm reading it wrong.

What I actually have seen in the past was an option to pay an upcharge to use nicer stems, where the wine price was the same, but you could pay, for example, $5/person to have better stemware.

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Post #: 12

RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/27/2023 10:25:52 AM

ChrisinCowiche

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quote:

We're in Paris this week and have been to four different Michelin Star restaurants that have three different wine pricing models.

Per the original post, this is based on four different restaurants.

As for upgrading glassware for $5, I can see myself doing that if the "house" stems are something clunky, or if the wine "demands" it, i.e. Pinot glass. But for Riedel vs. Something fancier in similar shape, standard Riedel always works for me.

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/27/2023 9:49:26 PM

daviladc

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The question is based on how multiple different restaurants here in Paris that I've visited this past week have priced their wines and the stemware used.

As for wine pricing, having worked closely with a friend who owns a restaurant, I know for a fact the glassware chosen has a direct impact on how much the consumer gets charged for wine.

I'm curious where the sweet spot is for the consumer. Are you happy at 2Xs with restaurant Riedels or 3Xs with Zalto?

Considering Zaltos are 8-10xs more expensive than restaurant Riedel glasses, a simple $5 upcharge isn't going to cut it.

For example, yesterday we had lunch at a high-end place that is pushing for a Michelin Star. Their wine is 2Xs+ retail. It's a decent list for that level and most wines are very young. But, the Lehman glasses used are not grape specific. I personally feel that part of the restaurant's service is a let down compared to their local competitors. So for me, the sweet spot moves based on what you get.

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/28/2023 12:16:19 AM

grafstrb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: recotte

quote:

ORIGINAL: grafstrb

How weird, and -- quite frankly, déclassé -- of a restaurant, particularly a Michelin-starred restaurant.

To be clear, I "get it," but it's still lands wrong for me.

... maybe I'm reading this wrong ... have you been to a restaurant with this pricing model?

My interpretation was that he didn't go to a single restaurant that had three pricing options for their wine list, but rather he had been to multiple restaurants and observed the differing pricing models that seemed to correlate with the stemware. Restaurant A had the 3x Retail + Zalto combo, Restaurant B had 2x Retail + Riedel, etc. But maybe I'm reading it wrong.

What I actually have seen in the past was an option to pay an upcharge to use nicer stems, where the wine price was the same, but you could pay, for example, $5/person to have better stemware.

Thanks for this clarification ... the more I thought about it, the more I thought this, in fact, may have been the situation.

Now that I understand, my vote would be for the Riedel and 2x retail, assuming the wines on the lists are of similar quality and interest to me.

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/28/2023 12:20:36 AM

grafstrb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daviladc

The question is based on how multiple different restaurants here in Paris that I've visited this past week have priced their wines and the stemware used.

As for wine pricing, having worked closely with a friend who owns a restaurant, I know for a fact the glassware chosen has a direct impact on how much the consumer gets charged for wine.

I'm curious where the sweet spot is for the consumer. Are you happy at 2Xs with restaurant Riedels or 3Xs with Zalto?

Considering Zaltos are 8-10xs more expensive than restaurant Riedel glasses, a simple $5 upcharge isn't going to cut it.

For example, yesterday we had lunch at a high-end place that is pushing for a Michelin Star. Their wine is 2Xs+ retail. It's a decent list for that level and most wines are very young. But, the Lehman glasses used are not grape specific. I personally feel that part of the restaurant's service is a let down compared to their local competitors. So for me, the sweet spot moves based on what you get.

Assuming I'm ordering a bottle that normally retails for --- let's say $60+(?) --- I'd happily pay the $5 upcharge for Zalto (yes, I know that's nothing more than a hypothetical option being bandied about; and -- Yes -- I did see you say that's "not going to cut it", given the significant difference in price between Zalto and Riedel ... I'm just sayin'

)

But, assuming the wine remains the same and the only difference is stemware, no way am I going to be willing to go from 2x to 3x in order to move from Riedel to Zalto. Heck, I still to this day reach for my trusty $10 Riedel Ouverture stem on a not-infrequent basis.

... on the "burying the lead" front: which restaurants have you gone to, and how did you like them?!? About a year ago, we tried "Le Christine" for the first time and came away very impressed. Great food, great wine list, nice setting, and great service. Will definitely go back. ... {sigh} ... now I miss Paris ...

< Message edited by grafstrb -- 11/28/2023 12:22:42 AM >

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/28/2023 12:30:09 AM

daviladc

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These are the places we've been to this week that qualify for this conversation:

Granite - Good

Pages - Better

Le Grand Vefour - Ok

L'Atelier Joël Robuchon - Really Good

Le Bon Georges - My Favorite - Best List - Best Value

Les Parisiens - Good - The Best Bread

La Tour D'Argent - The blow out dinner tonight for our 10th anniversary.

< Message edited by daviladc -- 11/28/2023 12:33:36 AM >

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/28/2023 1:15:42 PM

mye

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If I was in Paris and comparing to US retail. i would want to pay under 1x Retail and still get Zaltos ;)

< Message edited by mye -- 11/28/2023 1:32:17 PM >

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Post #: 18

RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/28/2023 2:00:22 PM

DoubleD1969

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Is there a correlation between the quality of wine glasses and Michelin stars? The impression I get is that everything around the food is factored into it, which includes service, presentation, etc.

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/28/2023 3:55:39 PM

grafstrb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daviladc

These are the places we've been to this week that qualify for this conversation:

Granite - Good

Pages - Better

Le Grand Vefour - Ok

L'Atelier Joël Robuchon - Really Good

Le Bon Georges - My Favorite - Best List - Best Value

Les Parisiens - Good - The Best Bread

La Tour D'Argent - The blow out dinner tonight for our 10th anniversary.

Whoa!!! That sounds awesome!

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/28/2023 4:11:20 PM

recotte

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DoubleD1969

Is there a correlation between the quality of wine glasses and Michelin stars? The impression I get is that everything around the food is factored into it, which includes service, presentation, etc.

My impression, as well. Honestly, if I'm paying for a Michelin-starred experience, I expect everything about it to be exceptional. If I'm noticing the stemware because it's subpar, they're not doing it right.

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/28/2023 6:44:29 PM

Paul852

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Unfortunately, you seem to have misunderstood what Michelin Stars are awarded for. From https://guide.michelin.com/en/article/features/what-is-a-michelin-star

"A Michelin Star is awarded to restaurants offering outstanding cooking. We take into account five universal criteria: the quality of the ingredients, the harmony of flavours, the mastery of techniques, the personality of the chef as expressed through their cuisine and, just as importantly, consistency both across the entire menu and over time. "

And

"Is the decoration/style of restaurant a factor in awarding a Star?
No. A Michelin Star is awarded for the food on the plate – nothing else. The style of a restaurant and its degree of formality or informality have no bearing whatsoever on the award."

No account is taken of wine, glasses, service, decor or anything else.

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/28/2023 7:01:52 PM

DoubleD1969

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Thanks for looking it up! I was just being lazy. Lol

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/28/2023 7:20:36 PM

cellardweller

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I don't buy the premise of the post that wine stems drive wine prices. Four restaurants wine lists is strictly anecdotal, not evidence. Especially in Paris where varietal specific stemware is not a thing as wines are classified by Appellation not variety. I know of no Parisian restaurant having a wide range of varietal shaped glasses. The only restaurant I have ever seen that offers many different wine shapes for each wine is Eleven Madison in New York that offers wines in 17 different wine glass shapes. It is pure marketing.

Michelin star restaurants will typically have higher end glassware and that is obviously factored in the overall cost of the meal as is the quality of the raw ingredients, the size of the staff. The glassware will barely move the needle everything else considered. In a highly competitive restaurant market such as Paris, the price of a dinner (including wine) at a Michelin starred restaurant is largely determined by its number of stars. This gives the restaurant owner a budget per customer to work from.

The pricing model for wines in cities like Paris is also rapidly evolving driven by a younger generation less interested in drinking labels. Most Michelin rated restaurants in Paris are now pushing wine pairings with their tasting menus where they may offer half a dozen small tastes across many appellations. The old style Bordeaux and Burgundy centric wine lists that mostly appeal to foreign tourists are rapildy disappearing. Any sommelier worth his salt in Paris stays away from such narrow focus and will increasingly seek out wines from small producers in less well known regions, even outside of France. Alliance, a hot one star Michelin restaurant, two steps away from the Tour d'Argent is a great example. Shawn Joyeux, sommelier and co-owner does not even publish a wine list. The wines are selected on the basis of their affinity with the locally sourced food being served. Many of his wines are nearly impossible to find at retail so good luck trying to guess a markup.

The science behind shape specific glassware has been widely debunked. In 2001 the Journal of Wine Research published a study in which blindfolded enology students sniffed wines in different glasses, including Riedel Burgundy and Chardonnay glasses. The study’s author found that any wine served in the Burgundy glass was said to have more “total intensity” but that no particular sensory attributes were enhanced more than others. Other studies essentially came to the same conclusion. The old map of the tongue models in which sweet tastes are detected by the tip of the tongue, sour by the edges, and so forth hav ebeen proven to be complete BS. Recent studies have shown that any perceptual differences are minimal from one part of the tongue to another.

In short, Emperor Riedel has no clothes. Spend your money on wine not glassware. Any decent stems will do just fine.

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/29/2023 5:12:02 AM

daviladc

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Cellardwellar,

Stem prices are a factor in wine prices. Trust me I work with a restaurant on their list.

My premise was about the consumer and their sweet spot, not about pricing. The more I pay, the nicer the stemware I'd like to see.

Grape specific stemware was at all but two wine centric restaurants this week in Paris.

Look at my other post here to read how I feel my sweet spot as a consumer slides as I see what kind of stemware vs the price of wine.

Also, having access to provi.com gives me the ability to find a lot wines and their wholesale prices. If not I've got access to two wholesalers, one that I invest with, to find almost anything else in the world. If a restaurant has it, they usually get it through a distributor. I realize Paris/France may be a little more direct relationship based. But as a general rule, this is correct.

As for Alliance, my experience at high end restaurants in Paris and France is unless the restaurant is focusing on natural wine, I have always seen a list. Only The Butcher of Paris didn't have a list this week and they had $#!+ natural wine on offer. Alliance might be different, but it isn't just tourists at the places I was at this week. One last bit, not once this week we're we offered a wine tasting that accompanied the menu.

I guess my experience this past week has been totally different from yours and that's OK. Thanks for posting!

< Message edited by daviladc -- 11/29/2023 5:16:56 AM >

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/29/2023 10:14:59 AM

BenG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul852

Unfortunately, you seem to have misunderstood what Michelin Stars are awarded for. From https://guide.michelin.com/en/article/features/what-is-a-michelin-star

"A Michelin Star is awarded to restaurants offering outstanding cooking. We take into account five universal criteria: the quality of the ingredients, the harmony of flavours, the mastery of techniques, the personality of the chef as expressed through their cuisine and, just as importantly, consistency both across the entire menu and over time. "

And

"Is the decoration/style of restaurant a factor in awarding a Star?
No. A Michelin Star is awarded for the food on the plate – nothing else. The style of a restaurant and its degree of formality or informality have no bearing whatsoever on the award."

No account is taken of wine, glasses, service, decor or anything else.

I like this approach. A restaurant can have plastic seats, no tablecloth, fluorescent lights, tacky posters on the wall and a view of an old brick wall but if the food is excellent - I'm there. Even better if it's BYOB (although I'll probably bring Riedel glasses and not Zaltos).

My wife prefers restaurants with beautiful decor and a view of the harbour/city skyline/piazza. One pays extra for these features and more often than not, they skimp on food quality.

< Message edited by BenG -- 11/29/2023 10:17:54 AM >

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/29/2023 10:45:53 AM

mye

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cellardweller
Alliance, a hot one star Michelin restaurant, two steps away from the Tour d'Argent is a great example. Shawn Joyeux, sommelier and co-owner does not even publish a wine list. The wines are selected on the basis of their affinity with the locally sourced food being served.

quote:

ORIGINAL: daviladc
As for Alliance, my experience at high end restaurants in Paris and France is unless the restaurant is focusing on natural wine, I have always seen a list. Only The Butcher of Paris didn't have a list this week and they had $#!+ natural wine on offer.

I don't know for sure b/c i've not been to Alliance but I suspect Cellardweller meant that Alliance doesn't PUBLISH a list on the website where you can look up ahead of time. lots of places in Paris do not PUBLISH a wine list.. but they definitely have one.. when you get there they'll hand it to you. :)

If Alliance doesn't even have a wine list onsite, ok cool, but that's much less common (at least from my experience in Paris).

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/29/2023 10:48:56 AM

DoubleD1969

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I would think one will find it difficult finding Michelin-starred restaurants that:
a) have BYOB and be around for three years after receiving their star(s); or
b) serve their wines in clunky wine glasses.

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Post #: 28

RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/29/2023 11:01:59 AM

pemazel

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I think this is fake. I know quite a lot of Michelin-starred restaurants in Paris and this question never came up: such restaurants aim to get you an extraordinary experience, including good stemm ware.

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RE: Where is the sweet spot for wine glasses and restau... - 11/29/2023 6:44:39 PM

daviladc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pemazel

I think this is fake. I know quite a lot of Michelin-starred restaurants in Paris and this question never came up: such restaurants aim to get you an extraordinary experience, including good stemm ware.

What is fake?

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