Multiple producer mess: Pedro's, Cayetano del Pino, Viniberia, etc

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

All Forums >> [Cellar Talk] >> Wine Data Errors & Corrections >> Multiple producer mess: Pedro's, Cayetano del Pino, Viniberia, etc

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Multiple producer mess: Pedro's, Cayetano del Pino, Vin... - 2/28/2024 4:25:34 AM

Echinosum

Posts: 604
Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
Status: offline

Pedro's sherry range is a brand of Viniberia S.A (viniberia.com), as this article identifies. Viniberia also seem to control Cayetano del Pino and Williams & Humbert in sherry, and also sell and bottle various table wines, from what i can understand on viniberia.com.

We have two producer pages for Viniberia Viniberia, and another Viniberia, with non-overlapping lists of wines.

The first of those two producer pages includes some Pedro's and Cayetano del Pino sherries, which overlap with the specific producer pages for those brands, Pedro's and Cayetano del Pino.

And meanwhile Pedro's Palo Cortado is located as two specific individual producers another Pedro's and yet another Pedro's.

Best of luck untangling those.

_____________________________

A discriminating palate can be a curse.

Post #: 1

RE: Multiple producer mess: Pedro's, Cayetano del Pino,... - 2/28/2024 8:40:25 AM

andrew

Posts: 4166
Joined: 2/20/2005
Status: offline

Cayetano del Pino is/was traditionally an Almacenista which meant they didn't release their own wines. So that name is reasonably under Viniberia as well as Lustau and Sanchez-Romate. Is looks like they have their own labelling as well. (The Lustau makes it clear the relationship). According to at least one Jancis review, the Viniberia version is valid. I think the Sanchez-Romate version is now the stand-alone, but I am not sure.

_____________________________

Andrew Hall

CellarTracker Editorial & Support Services

(in reply to Echinosum)

Post #: 2

RE: Multiple producer mess: Pedro's, Cayetano del Pino,... - 2/29/2024 7:42:34 AM

Echinosum

Posts: 604
Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: andrew
Cayetano del Pino is/was traditionally an Almacenista which meant they didn't release their own wines. So that name is reasonably under Viniberia as well as Lustau and Sanchez-Romate. Is looks like they have their own labelling as well. (The Lustau makes it clear the relationship). According to at least one Jancis review, the Viniberia version is valid. I think the Sanchez-Romate version is now the stand-alone, but I am not sure.

Thank you for that explanation, it makes a lot of sense of what is going on.

But the two Cayetano del Pino wines you have left under the Viniberia producer are - or appear to be - duplicated under the Cayetano del Pino producer.

Specifically NV Viniberia Jerez-Xérès-Sherry Cayetano del Pino Palo Cortado 1/10 and NV Cayetano del Pino & Cía S.A. Palo Cortado 1/10 VOS are the same wine, or at least have the same label.

And NV Viniberia Jerez-Xérès-Sherry Cayetano del Pino Palo Cortado Solera and NV Cayetano del Pino & Cía S.A. Palo Cortado Solera are the same wine. Or at least have the same label.

As you say, Sánchez-Romate also put out a NV Sánchez Romate Hnos. Jerez-Xérès-Sherry Cayetano del Pino Palo Cortado Solera, but at least it has the courtesy to have a different label from the above Palo Cortado Solera. So we can clearly distinguish it as the S-R bottled version, if we want to. And the two Lustau bottled Cayetano del Pino Palo Cortados have slightly different names as well as being clearly Lustau bottled. So those can be clearly identified as SR and Lustau bottlings of CdP elevé wines.

So maybe all of these Cayetano del Pino "own labels" are in fact Viniberia bottlings. Or maybe Viniberia created the label/wine, and then CdP took it back in-house later, while retaining the same branding/labelling. But if it is under the same label, and we can't really tell the difference, it is perhaps sensible to keep what look like Cayetano del Pino own-label bottlings in one place, whether it is under Viniberia or under a separate CdP producer?

Meanwhile there is a small issue that the someone has created a 2015 vintage version of the Viniberia Jerez-Xérès-Sherry Cayetano del Pino Palo Cortado Solera, which is clearly not possible for a solera wine. I suspect that is a bottling date rather than a vintage. Some people might wish to distinguish NV wines with different bottling dates, though it seems to make less sense for a solera wine than others.

_____________________________

A discriminating palate can be a curse.

(in reply to andrew)

Post #: 3

RE: Multiple producer mess: Pedro's, Cayetano del Pino,... - 2/29/2024 4:54:32 PM

andrew

Posts: 4166
Joined: 2/20/2005
Status: offline

Yeah, I should I have noted that this was in flux and I can hopefully figure out if there is a difference between the Viniberia or not. Or if we just have wrong images. I back-burnered this for a bit because I want to think about what I want to do if I can't get a good answer. There is a Jancis review that calls out Viniberie and that isn't usually the case unless there is a substantive difference, btw.

_____________________________

Andrew Hall

CellarTracker Editorial & Support Services

(in reply to Echinosum)

Post #: 4

RE: Multiple producer mess: Pedro's, Cayetano del Pino,... - 3/1/2024 7:06:54 AM

Echinosum

Posts: 604
Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
Status: offline

OK.

If we go onto the Cayetano del Pino website (Palo Cortado page as an example), the sherries they are selling themselves have quite different labels from any we have seen on CT as we looked around the various CdP wines.

There is an explicit mention in this article that CdP are now bottling their own wines. The picture there, btw, is clearly described in the article as a Sánchez-Romate bottling. Those labels are seen on CT on the SR bottlings. But it is exactly the same label that you see on Viniberia's own website. And these old-fashioned ladies are very similar to the old fashioned ladies labels Romate put on many of their own sherries. (I think I drank one of those recently.)

So I wonder if Viniberia simply took over from Romate in bottling those CdP wines with the lady labels, with continuity of front label? Viniberia and Romate have different office addresses, so it is not that they are the same. But Viniberia are selling a Romate sherry on their own website, with a lady label, so maybe they will happily distribute Romate sherries?

And then there's this label too, which that article attributes as a CdP own-bottling. It's not on the CdP website, but is seen various places around on CT, attributed to all of CdP, Viniberia and SR.

Btw, I found an additional CdP producer page on CT, which houses some amontillados not seen elsewhere. The labels there are of the lady type.

< Message edited by Echinosum -- 3/1/2024 7:44:42 AM >

_____________________________

A discriminating palate can be a curse.

(in reply to andrew)

Post #: 5

RE: Multiple producer mess: Pedro's, Cayetano del Pino,... - 3/3/2024 5:23:49 AM

andrew

Posts: 4166
Joined: 2/20/2005
Status: offline

That is all likely correct. I might be overthinking it, but I wasn't sure enough when I made the first changes to go father w/o some more thought. It is something I have marked to loop back on.

_____________________________

Andrew Hall

CellarTracker Editorial & Support Services

(in reply to Echinosum)

Post #: 6

RE: Multiple producer mess: Pedro's, Cayetano del Pino,... - 3/5/2024 4:00:59 PM

andrew

Posts: 4166
Joined: 2/20/2005
Status: offline

One update : Vini Iberia is just an importer/distributor. I got mislead because Decanter use them as a producer. I consolidated those versions into Sanchez Romate (another brand Vini Iberia handles.)

_____________________________

Andrew Hall

CellarTracker Editorial & Support Services

(in reply to andrew)

Post #: 7