Community Tasting Note

• csimm wrote: 99 points

  December 15, 2017 - Concentrated and explosive. What a captivating attack; the kind that makes you interrupt the conversation and blatantly inquire, "Wait, WTF is this I'm drinking?!" Layers upon layers of gorgeous and lively black, dark red, and purple fruit flavors. The purple and black raspberry notes repeated on the back end, extending the progression of the glide on the mid-palate, deepening the overall display of flavors. An interesting, faint but heady floral note (acacia? - a semi-sweet fragrance...lavender? lilac perhaps?) provided lift on the very tail end of the finish.
  
  The drive on this wine is incredible. Yes, it's a barrel sample, but I have little doubt this can't help but translate superbly into a true gem when it is bottled in a few months. 98-100 points given the trajectory this is headed. Thank God 2016 yields are up!

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26 Comments

• Cristal2000 commented:

  12/17/17, 6:11 PM - I see we were casually strolling through the valley with Mike Smith and perhaps Patrice? Just a typical day out? Good lord man, have you no shame?!?!
  
  Seems the feedback here is good for Myriad in 2016 and beyond. Do you know if they'll be shipping the Cranes right after release or waiting all the way to fall as they typically have in the past? I think they moved the Crane date up a couple months to January, if memory serves.
  
  Also, what was your general impression of 2017 vintage? I would expect it not to be as good as 2016 due to just the crazy weather patterns and of course, the fires a bit as well.

• csimm commented:

  12/18/17, 9:03 AM - Ha! The barrel tasting was an impromptu offer when I stopped by Envy. Very cool indeed. I don't know about 2016s in general, but I can definitely say this Elysian is looking to be fantastic. The new 2016 Steltzner also seems very interesting...already showing what seems like some cool Stags Leap characteristics. The Vice Versa Cabs are the only other Napa Cabs I've had from 2016 so far...which as you know, were pretty great as well.
  
  Who can really say about 2017 yet. Word is that it is a good vintage but probably not as good as 2015 or 2016. The fruit from the Myriad wines seems of high quality as usual. I was most curious about the smoke taint issue with 2017. I've been trying to ask around as much as possible to see where the problem areas lie. Seems like other wineries will be having issues with that of course...some big names in wine will have to junk some of their fruit if they want to maintain trust with their clientele.

• Cristal2000 commented:

  12/18/17, 10:47 AM - It's always this time of year that I remember why I am a bit skeptical of MS wines. They seem to change more than any other wines I can remember. One min the best thing I've ever tasted, the next min super sweet and one dimensional. My buddy was saying the 2015 Carter Fortuna is crazy sweet and jammy right now, and that is how I found my second bottle of Becklyn. A moving target for sure!

• csimm commented:

  12/18/17, 11:46 AM - Interesting about the Fortuna. That's one of the last wines I'd peg for turning into something overly sweet. I usually associate that with the young Quivet wines especially...not usually the Carter label (sometimes the Myriad NV and GIII can have some fruity [sweet-ish?] flavors when super young - the '15 Carter Carter was the most plush of the whole lineup if I recall correctly). I would hope to think Fortuna won't end up being a "sweet" wine by any means, but who can really tell where these wines wander to and from throughout the courses of their lives. Like you said, sometimes a moving target.

• Cristal2000 commented:

  12/18/17, 12:30 PM - I was surprised too, but the most recent post on the wine does mention it being massively extracted and insanely rich. That's not what I got out of my last bottle at all, but I don't doubt it could have evolved into that. Carter is definitely usually the best at keeping some lid on the "sweet" characteristics, probably due to Mark's influence and the quality of the terroir.

• Cabernet4me2 commented:

  1/11/18, 10:30 PM - Thanks CS.... great notes as usual !
  
  Question, I didn't see any notes on the regular Dr C, and curious your take on it. A few of us seem to have pretty similar palates, so with the upcoming offering and not having the benefit of being able to taste... would love to hear your thoughts

• csimm commented:

  1/12/18, 8:18 AM - I did not technically sample the ‘16 Crane, as the barrel I sampled was intended for the ‘16 Elysian bottling. From a barrel sample standpoint I’d imagine they would show similarly. In general, the difference between the Elysian and the standard Crane usually has to do with texture primarily (in my opinion). The Elysian comes off more seamless and silky in its delivery (I personally think cooperage has a lot to do with that - Darnajou and Taransaud), which allows for the core fruit complexity to show a little more because it doesn’t have any edges to it really. The grip is obviously still super solid and the concentration and drive are exceptional, but the Elysian coats the palate with a bit more sophistication and elegance than the standard Crane. The power is the same, but the tannins seem finer on the Elysian usually. The Crane can sometimes take a little more time to develop its glide. In the end, I like both wines, but I tend to favor the Elysian.
  
  By way of contrast, and somewhat ironically, I favor the standard GIII over the Empyrean (GIII Reserve) right now (in 2015) because the Empyrean is also a smoother version of the standard GIII, but I am currently more drawn to the power of the standard GIII. The contrasting sites (Crane vs GIII) dictate the difference. The Crane benefits from the silky texture via the Elysian. However, making the GIII silky via the Empyrean makes the fruit seem more round, which is not something the GIII fruit needs. The fruit from that site seemingly lacks grip and structure at times and can come off fruity. I want some edge on my GIII to provide better scaffolding to harness all that plush fruit. The standard GIII does that better for my palate than the Empyrean currently. The Empyrean is indeed a more “sophisticated” version of GIII, but I like the GIII a little more robust (at least currently - who knows what the coming years will bring).

• Cabernet4me2 commented:

  1/12/18, 9:35 AM - That's all the answer it get?? (Laughing)... Thanks..! I did not realize that Mike used different barrels / cooperage on the two Dr. C's? My assumption was it was the best of the best, but as for the 'process' they were basically done in the same style. I agree with you on the Drs, however have not yet been able to taste the GIII Emp, so nothing to compare to, but your description definitely makes sense, is he using the same barrels for the GIII on steroids??
  
  IYHO, this upcoming vintage compared to the last 4 (hard to keep em straight, now coming up on 5 winner vintages) at least at initial bottling drinkability and opinion for the long haul?? So far Ive been pretty good at spotting the 'long hauler' over some that drank beautifully at the onset, but seemed to missing that element (acidity, etc) to make it a candidate for laying down for some years.. respect your take!

• csimm commented:

  1/12/18, 10:20 AM - You know better than to ask me something and expect me to have some one word answer... haha.
  
  I’m not sure of the cooperage for the Empyrean. My best guess is it is similar to the Elysian, but I don’t specifically know.
  
  Of the 2016s I’ve had, I think 2016 may be even more ready out of the gate than the 2015s. Of course they have all been barrel samples, so the concentration levels appear super high and powerful - but some of that of course is the dynamic of the barrel sample vs once it has settled down in bottle. Most of the Napa winemakers/proprietors I’ve spoken with are favoring the 2016 over 2015 in many respects. I’m sure some of that sentiment has to do with the much higher yields by comparison (which is better for their businesses of course in terms of $$$).
  
  Quality for 2016 seems as good as it ever has been. I’d be fairly confident in saying it is certainly better than 2012 and 2014. 2016 seems like 2015 on steroids. I think they will be “bigger” wines, but not as balled up as some 2013s. I still think the 2013 vintage is going to be the most age-worthy of the 2012-2016 vintages, as some 2013s are still in much need of time in bottle. 2013 needs time to unravel. 2016 may need its time to calm down (depending on how you like your wines). 2016 seems like it is personally right up my ally. Big concentration and depth of flavor, but with notable complexity and tiers and tiers of flavor. 2015 is my favorite so far of the last 5 vintages (just cuz I haven’t had enough 2016s to really compare yet), but 2016 is a vintage where I will likely (and unfortunately, wallet-bending wise) go deep.

• Cabernet4me2 commented:

  1/12/18, 10:37 AM - Laughing, yes.. know it will never be one of those one sentence - few word answers.. but a good thing.
  
  Agree with the concentration levels tasting in barrel compared to the finished product, that being said, many times its that missing 'backbone' that, IMHO, is either there or not.. and from previous notes.. most of the reviews posted were pretty much dead on.
  
  I loved the 13s out of the gate, but they mostly have seemed to go to sleep, wondering when they will 'awake" from their slumber, whereas the 12s seemed liked they had all the 'stuffing' but were many times all over the place in my early tasting. The 14s were very good - but because of the two earlier vintages.. just seemed to get lost, good on their own but compared, just seem to lack a little 'umph'. The 15' for me have been a hit and miss, some great / some disjointed (like the Scarlett) but again have the stuff to come together, just on the few I have popped, not nearly as in tune as you, many of the 15's though i think will be great for 5-10 - seem to big on fruit, but seem a little thin on acidity...
  
  I wasn't sure as I know the yields were significantly up on the 16's just didnt know if that burst of the vines finally getting a "good and long drink' of water, might affect the concentration of the grapes, even with the 'thinning out' of the vines.
  
  I know I am definitely not speaking for the winemakers/proprietors, but I do agree with you about the constant "creases' that are forming on the wallets.. hate to say it .. but 11' was a little nice, giving a break from not worrying about "missing" some mind-blowing wine due to all the other purchases!
  
  That being said... Thank You.. ( I think_) as i know it looks to be another costly year!! lol

• csimm commented:

  1/12/18, 10:46 AM - Costly indeed. We may all get a bit of a break in 2017, as it doesn’t readily appear to be a blockbuster vintage (a good-ish one perhaps) and the fires may affect some consumers’ decisions to go all in with certain wines.

• Cristal2000 commented:

  1/12/18, 10:54 AM - Quick jump in here: Woo Hoo for a mediocre vintage in 2017! My wallet needs a BREAK!! Oh, and I personally think in 5 years the Empyrean will be much better than the regular GIII, if only because that great initial power and concentration in the regular GIII is a hedonists dream, but it's all fruit and after a few years it likely won't be looking so good...but the Empyrean has much better acid and balance. That said, doesn't matter since my GIII's will be long gone!

• Cabernet4me2 commented:

  1/12/18, 11:00 AM - Wholeheartedly agree C2..... a small break would be nice both pocketbook and cellar spacing issues.. lol !!.. but you know.. just when you thought it was "safe to back into the water"... some stellar reviews are going to break about the 17's make us all question about 'taking that break' ... lol

• bplant13 commented:

  1/18/18, 3:38 PM - Great convo guys! I was happy to snatch up some 16s before they sold out! I gave Mike Smith a hard time about the size of his bottles when we went to his NYC event a couple years back. He didn’t seem to care for my comments, lol. Most wine fridges just can’t accommodate these giant Napa bottles. I don’t get it (both with the fridges and the winemakers). I’ve got 2 edgestar fridges in my Manhattan apartment and no room any more...

• Cabernet4me2 commented:

  1/18/18, 3:51 PM - That's just Mike!! (laughing) ... he and Leah are such Great People and so glad they sold out in less than 24 hours!!!
  
  His bottles don't fit?? Really?? Think the Carter wines he makes, the bottles are even bigger/thicker - & some like the Robert Foley, Del Dotto, etc.. are not wide but longer, so if you have a fridge that is 2 deep, i sometime have to push the bottle neck of the back bottle to the side to make them fit so i can close the door.
  
  I know many companies offer two different sized bottle racking sizes (besides magnum or larger) and learned to make sure to order the larger, as it might hold a few less bottles, but don't have the issues fitting them in and even worse getting those damaged labels from forcing them in the slot!!

• csimm commented:

  1/18/18, 4:27 PM - I always throw my back out picking up one of those damn Carter bottles. It’s also super annoying when I can’t get my Mercedes into a parking stall...What a pain in the a** that is, right?! :) J/K! ...Damn first-world problems!
  
  Maybe we should tell Mike to start bottling everything in .375s...

• Cabernet4me2 commented:

  1/18/18, 4:36 PM - Yup those damn Carter Bottles and others who use those super heavy weight ones, I think worse than the issues with the weight on deliveries is when a open bottle is on the table and you walk up, not being able to see there is nothing left, and in lifting it believing you're gonna get some more of that tasty fermented juice, then tilting it to pour - Only to find out.... you just wasted your time and the disappointment of No More Wine!! Now that is something to b@#$h about!!

• csimm commented:

  1/18/18, 4:41 PM - Haha... Yes that truly IS the worst!

• bplant13 commented:

  1/18/18, 9:51 PM - Wish I had the space and fridges that you guys had! Please tell me what fridges can fit these bottles!!! I find my Foley, Hobbs, TOR, and others seems to be long but not thick, which fit fine in my smaller fridge, which seems to have more space between front and back bottles, but not the big fridge, other than the top and bottom rows where I jam in the large bottles. Can't really relate to the parking situation, but my condo's valet guys can, because they've banged up my bimmer more than once cramming it into the garage.

• Cabernet4me2 commented:

  1/19/18, 9:49 AM - Not sure which fridges you have, but most of the ones that have the 'pull out' drawers will fit most standard bottles including the Pinot style bottles. Personally have the LeCache, no pull out drawers but has wood slots to allow two bottles per slot (in tandem). I have a little bit of a problem with the longer bottles as the Foley, Hobbs, some Sine Qua Non special bottles, etc... as I have to prop the back bottle to the side or down a little so that the door will close. However it fits just about any other standard bottle out there, with the exception of some of the super wide (squawaty) Champagne bottles. Usually can get them to fit, but its really tight, so have a smaller fridge for those irregular crazy bottles. Most of the nice - non costco - fridges should accommodate most.

• Robi6916 commented:

  1/20/18, 6:32 AM - Hi, I follow your reviews quite a bit. Seem to be right on par with my pallet. Curious on your thoughts here. Which is the better choice, 2015 Scarlett Reserve or 2015 Quivet Beckstoffer LPV? Seems like your reviews would sway towards the Scarlett Reserve but figured you may offer a better perspective when asked. Also, are the Quivet Wines typically of sweeter notes in their youth? I personally haven’t been exposed to a Quivet yet, but have an opportunity to acquire some. Thanks!

• csimm commented:

  1/20/18, 12:11 PM - Hi Robi6916. So my initial response is that both wines are worth having (especially in the 2015 vintage). That said...Gun to my head, I'd favor the Scarlett Reserve over the Quivet LPV (currently, and again in the 2015 vintage). As you likely know, the LPV site usually kicks out some nice minerality and sometimes a blacker fruit profile overall.
  
  Quivet's version is typically a little more fruit-driven than other LPV's I've had, but I don't really experience the "sweetness" in that particular wine; the LPV also usually takes some time to fully unwind. Young Quivet LPV's can sometimes be pretty bound up. I'll also say that, for me, the LPV is a much different animal than Quivet's other reds. Speaking generally, the Kenefick tends to display a lot of ripe fruit (to the point that sometimes it can be a little overwhelming - some CT notes definitely speak to sweetness here). The Pellet is a little more funky and earthy. For my palate, LPV is the king of the Quivets, and the one I'm most drawn to.
  
  Now, comparing the Scarlett Reserve to the Quivet LPV is a bit of an apples/oranges issue. The McGah and LPV sites display different characteristics in general...most notably, more mineral influence in the LPV. Mike's winemaking "style" (whatever exactly that is - depends on whose opinion you're asking) seems to be consistent in both wines. So I believe any differentiation is mostly site-driven. The Scarlett Reserve (again, especially in 2015) is showing phenomenal core fruit, with an upfront concentration that is really compelling. The LPV needs some time to integrate some of that black stone fruit - it comes off slightly linear at first. Also note that the Scarlett Reserve and standard Scarlett are much different in my opinion. The standard Cab is all about flavor and fruit...a lot of it. The Reserve is totally about next-level focus and sophistication - it throttles back the gobs of fruit and carries more complexity.
  
  Today I favor the Scarlett Reserve. Tomorrow, next year, the next three years, I may prefer the LPV. If you have the opportunity to secure some '15 LPV at a decent price, I'd jump on it. As mentioned, the other Quivet wines are a bit of a different story. Hope that helps!

• Robi6916 commented:

  1/20/18, 12:31 PM - Thanks a bunch! I know it’s a tough comparison as they are pretty different but as for the same price, which one is a more notable and complex wine. I appreciate all your input on those. I do indeed wish to have both, but sometimes we have to make choices as to what gets in the cellar and what i may be able to wait on. Thanks again! Cheers.

• csimm commented:

  1/20/18, 12:39 PM - The '15 Scarlett Reserve is more complex and notable for me (by a hair) at the end of the day. Others on this thread can also offer good insight here and can chime in if I'm steering you wrong. They have great palates and experience with Scarlett and Quivet as well.

• Cabernet4me2 commented:

  1/20/18, 1:02 PM - Agreed with CS, though I have only had a one occasion with both of the wines mentioned, have had experience with both, Quivet since 2008. Just popped a 2010 Quivet Kennefick Ranch on Thursday, and it was amazing, with tons of life left in it.. though I usually seem to find the current releases, when tried, a bit on the 'whonky" side, sometimes a bit sweet, sometimes a little over the top on the alcohol, but they really settle down over time! Both are amazing, and tend to jockey back and forth over time, why I love CTracker, great to find when multiple posts let you know that bottle is in a good place at the moment! Can't go wrong either way!!
  
  I agree with CS, love most all of Mikes wines, but those of us who seem to follow with similar palates, seem to find the Pellet a bit disjointed.. did find giving it plenty of air, it came around some... but still my least favorite of the vineyard designates.

• Cristal2000 commented:

  1/20/18, 1:59 PM - My 2cents: They are both awesome and if you were choosing just one it would likely come down to site profile. The Scarlett Reserve has got the mesmerizing deep, rich and layered fruit profile that can be just be such a fun experience. It also has some mineral driven elements and shows good complexity. This is the anti-AFWE/IPOB wine.
  
  The Quivet LPV of course is going to show a lot more earthy and mineral driven flavors vs the Scarlett Reserve. This is one of the best sites in all of Napa, so I think you can count on this wine aging really well and showing more overall balance and structure.
  
  The latest Scarlett Reserve I had was showing a bunch of Jam, so it probably needs a little time during this phase. When I had them both on release, I gave the edge to the Scarlett. But I am not sure the Quivet LPV won't eventually eclipse it. Clearly can't go wrong either way.

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