Community Tasting Note

• watcheslover Likes this wine: 100 points

  June 29, 2020 - For me the best Eglise Clinet ever made and meaby the best 2019 with Lafleur 99-100

  5 people found this helpful 11,540 views

77 Comments

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  7/5/20, 5:31 PM - Watcheslover- sorry for this long one but you have been so helpful and have had a number of the recent vintages earlier than most. I have been back and forth on buying more of this. I lean a bit new world (I prefer fruit in my wine with velvety mouthfeel) in my Bordeaux with a preference of St Emilion (Canon, Valandraud, Troplong, Pomerol (VCC), Mouton and SHL all in more fruit vintages like 2009, 2010, 2015, 2016 and assume 2018. I have not had this wine and of course am very uncertain about this vintage profile vs my palate but would you say this leans more fruit forward velvety/creamy profile like my favorites above or something different? Thank you so much for your help as I am closing out my Futures orders.

• watcheslover commented:

  7/5/20, 11:35 PM - No problem, if I can help someone friendly. For me, Eglise-Clinet is the best ever and this year it matches Lafleur and Figeac and it is better than Petrus. It is indeed creamy: velvety, on blackberry, liquorice and flowers. It is reminiscent of a Vosne Romanée grand cru. And like other wines of 2019, we will be able to start drinking it faster (2026?) Than the 2018, 2016 ...
  Other than that, if you like this kind of wine (like me), I recommend a fabulous quality / price ratio, the 2019 Mazeyres, it is of the same style with more truffle flavors.93-95

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  7/6/20, 8:06 AM - Wow very cool thank you! I will order a case today. Much appreacited.

• watcheslover commented:

  7/6/20, 9:00 AM - And with an other style (Margaux), Malescot Saint Exupery is very great for his price too.

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  7/6/20, 9:02 AM - Thank you. I have a case of that as well. Big futures year with great prices and what sounds like a cross between 2015/2009 and 2010/2016 if I read it correctly. Love the notes and advice!

• watcheslover commented:

  7/6/20, 9:13 AM - I'm not shure for the same quality of 2009-10 and 2016 but no problem for 2015. I think than 2015 is meaby surrevalued Many 2014 are better for the left bank (St-Julien, St Estephe) and very cheapier like Calon Segur or Las Cases. In my sense 2019 is a great vintage to drink the wines for a good price. If you want really buy to investment, buy 2016, 2016 and 2016 too.
  The really best vintange and affordable

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  7/6/20, 9:19 AM - Sorry the suggested vintages show 2016 for all three. Which were you suggesting please. Thank you

• watcheslover commented:

  7/6/20, 9:21 AM - Yes, it's not an error 2016, 2016 and a few of 2016

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  7/6/20, 9:22 AM - Ah- you love the 2016s! Ok thanks

• watcheslover commented:

  7/6/20, 9:32 AM - I'm not alone. All the great winetaster and many winemake said the same thing. And the good news for investors (minimum 15 years)is that prices have not changed much since the 2016 futures, especially Mouton and Haut Brion. One day they will explode

• bsumoba commented:

  9/12/22, 3:56 PM - I hate you guys....I'm picking up a few bottles of this wine. Might even open one up this year as I never had it and if you think this as good or better than Lafleur (in the 19' vintage of course) then it sounds like a solid wine.

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/12/22, 5:00 PM - Welcome?

• bsumoba commented:

  9/12/22, 5:19 PM - LOL Lite. Better than buying a 1K+ Lafleur.

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/12/22, 5:28 PM - Lol

• watcheslover commented:

  9/12/22, 10:57 PM - In my humble opinion, nothing is better in the world than the Lafleur 2019 apart from Pingus 2019 and Les Reignots from Arnoux Lachaux. But when it comes to quality/price, we can say that Eglise Clinet is better than Lafleur and even better, Figeac 2019 which for the moment is cheaper but it won't last long because it has just been classified 1st Grand Cru " A" and prices will go up very quickly. Happy will be those who bought it before

• bsumoba commented:

  9/13/22, 7:46 AM - Thanks Watchlover. Any other 19s to be aware of? I'll most likely be picking up L'Eglise and Figeac. Probably Malescot as well.

• watcheslover commented:

  9/13/22, 8:35 AM - Well in the 2019 Bordeaux, I love Branaire Ducru, Malescot and especially Larcis Ducasse which is fabulous for its price.
  Other Underpriced 2019s (for now, LOL)
  Italy: Petrolo Galatrona
  
  Red Rhone: Chateauneuf Clos des Papes
  
  White Rhône: Condrieu G.Vernay Coteau de Vernon
  
  Burgundy: B. Clavelier 1ers crus Combe d'Orveau, Brulées and Aux Cras + all the wines from the Méo-Camuzet estate which are fabulous for 2018, 2019 and 2020 (which I will rate over the next few days). For me, they are very likely to climb like an arrow in the manner of Arnoux Lachaux.

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/13/22, 9:12 AM - B- Watches and I have similar appreciation of wines. He is a bit less focused on concentration but has an incredible palate.
  
  Watches- I hope you are well. We are still very very hot here. Cheers!
  
  VCC
  Carmes Haut Brion
  
  Watches I did not get a chance to taste, what are your thoughts here?
  Cheval
  Laroque
  I know we both love Feytit Clinet but not sure where they landed on 2019
  
  Italian 2019 Wow
  -Petrolo Galatrona
  -Ornellaia
  
  Burgs
  Anything from de l’Arlot :)

• watcheslover commented:

  9/13/22, 10:02 AM - In fact, I'm not a big fan of Feytit Clinet, but the 2018 and 2019 are far superior to other vintages.
  
  Cheval Blanc 2019 is sumptuous, but i prefere Figeac
  
  I love Laroque and its fabulous value for money and I have a small preference for the 2021 which has the advantage of great freshness and can be drunk while waiting for the others.
  Ornelaia and Masseto are superb in 2019 but for a much lower price, I prefer the Petrolo which is very close in quality. Blinded, it looks like a very great Pomerol (100% Merlot).
  
  Finally, I really like L'Arlot (ST-Vivant, Suchots and Forets St-Georges above all) but for a roughly equal price, Méo-Camuzet has been much better for the past 3 years) Moreover, it has just to be named: iconic domain by auction site Idealwine. It doesn't suit me at all because I won't be able to buy any more soon, like A-Lachaux, sniff

• bsumoba commented:

  9/13/22, 10:31 AM - I'll pick up some Petrolo. I've been digging Super Tuscans lately and 2019 seems to be a very good/great year for that region. How about Guado Al Tasso? Any insights into this producer?

• watcheslover commented:

  9/13/22, 11:31 AM - Yes 2019 is a very great year for Tuscany, maybe the best for a very long time. There are also 2016 and 2013 which are superb. For Guado del Tasso, which one are you talking about? The normal cuvée is well below the Petrolo and more expensive. On the other hand, the "Matarocchio" cuvée is very classy (2019 and 2016 especially) but very very expensive, like Ornelaia and Masseto. For Petrolo (Galatrona), the best are in order
  2019, 2004, 2018 and 2020.

• csimm commented:

  9/13/22, 3:20 PM - Stupid question... Why is the 2019 L'Eglise-Clinet $100+ a bottle more generally than the other vintages. 2020/2018 are in the $275-315 range (as with most good vintages currently on the market). A Suckling 100 doesn't move the market that much...Ha!

• watcheslover commented:

  9/13/22, 3:39 PM - Simply because it's a collector's wine because it's the last vintage of a brilliant winemaker (Denis Durantou) before his death. A bit like Chateau Margaux 2015. On the other hand the difference is that the Eglise Clinet is really the best ever made and you can buy it to drink it, as long as the Margaux 2015 is beaten at least by the 2020, 2019 and the 2005 much cheaper. It is therefore a wine of pure speculation

• bsumoba commented:

  9/13/22, 3:41 PM - Yea...that is interesting. Not a very good score out of JD, which is interesting because he gives out 100pters like crazy. Maybe just supply and demand? I wonder if they look at the CT scores and factor that in (CT scores IMO, are a better indicator anyways).

• csimm commented:

  9/13/22, 3:43 PM - Thanks Watches. Ya I was wondering if his death somehow made that vintage more iconic in terms of demand. Interesting. Thanks again!

• bsumoba commented:

  9/13/22, 3:50 PM - I'm a bit of a sucker for last bottles by a particular winemaker. Thoughts on the 15 Margaux? I have two bottles of it. The bottle looks amazing. I bought it for just under $900 and now it is like $1,500 or something.

• watcheslover commented:

  9/13/22, 3:59 PM - csimm You're welcome.
  
  bsumoba
  Apart from that, to my taste which is not pro Bobby Parker, JD is one of the 3 worst wine critics with Jane Anson and the catastrophic Jeannie Cho Lee. I prefer the reviews of the GJE (European Grand Jury) J.Perrin, Bettane & Desseauve, and also NM, AG and JMQ.

• watcheslover commented:

  9/13/22, 4:11 PM - Bsumoba, I wrote about Margaux 2015 a few moments ago (see above). It's a big bottle, of course, but as long as other Margaux are better and cheaper, if you keep them it's only for speculative purposes otherwise it's a bit stupid not to sell them to buy 4 bottles of 2019 or 2020 which are better???
  Good night everyone, it's 1:00 AM in Provence

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/13/22, 4:46 PM - Watches- Bonsoir!
  
  FYI- Watches has a more classic (not fully Classic just more so than perhaps we do) palate than ours so there is an added layer of concentration that I also appreciate that he may not. I know this goes without saying but wanted to clarify as his palate is excellent but leans in a bit but many times our palates align 100% like in 2021! I tend to really enjoy 2015 right now but I would guess that is not a favorite vintage for him. We shall see when he awakes in beautiful Provenance!

• watcheslover commented:

  9/14/22, 2:18 AM - Hello LiteItOnFire,
  
  Indeed we often have the same tastes but I think you do not understand what I am writing to you. Maybe it's due to my poor spoken English???
  I love very concentrated wines, but this concentration must be logical and natural, due to the terroir, the grape variety, the vintage!!! But not oak soup as shepherd R. Parker encouraged for years and thousands of sheep followed him. Putting a golden saddle on a young donkey doesn't mean it will become a racehorse. In itself the great concentration is not sufficient if it is not accompanied by a beautiful acidity which will bring freshness and finesse. I still have in my cellar some very great Bordeaux wines from 1986, rated between 98 and 100/100 by the master, which are still undrinkable and which will never improve in my humble opinion. Apart from that, I don't only have criticisms of Bobby because he has done a lot to democratize wine and introduce people to very underestimated terroirs (Rhône, Languedoc...) Apart from that, I really like the 2015 which are often underestimated compared to the 2016. I have some Figeac and Conseillantes which are sublime.
  Finally, I advise you all to buy Burgundy 2020 because it is a rare and exceptional year in the sense that it manages to combine great concentration and at the same time a sublime freshness as only the 1990s, 1999 and 2015. But I think 2020 will be even better. Moreover, it is very possible that these bottles will not close at all in 1 or 2 years because of this great freshness (unlike the 2018 and 2019 which will soon no longer have to be opened for 4 or 5 years)
  Your devoted Watchy

• csimm commented:

  9/14/22, 6:38 AM - “...a golden saddle on a young donkey...”
  
  ...Now THAT is a great line. Well done Watches!!

• watcheslover commented:

  9/14/22, 7:22 AM - Thank you my Lord!

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/14/22, 7:28 AM - Watches- makes a ton of sense. FYI your English is better than mine!!
  
  I also love the 2020 Burgs, I think they are outstanding. Someone needs to do a fire sale on them (and ‘19s). I missed the boat on the pre-orders so I am a bit screwed.
  
  I am taking advantage of the 2019 Piedmont and Tuscany wines though so there is that.
  
  Cheers Watches and thank you as always for your feedback and time. Always appreciated!

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/14/22, 7:29 AM - Watches- great one-liner!
  
  CSIMM- will that line be recycled? I also love it and would like to see it used more often.

• bsumoba commented:

  9/14/22, 7:33 AM - So 2020 burg is not to be missed egh? I swore to myself that I wouldn't get into red burg. A level 2 Somm once told me, "All roads lead to Burgundy." I cringed at the idea because my cellar is probably 90% Napa and he mentioned in the instances that he knows of, they slowly sold off their Napa cellar and replaced it with BDX, then Burgundy. He also called this idea, "One of the natural laws of a wine collector." I know he was joking a bit, but I think he was just telling me in his own way to start looking at other parts of the world for wine.
  
  I'm curious where Lite and CSimm are in this timeline...lol.

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/14/22, 7:49 AM - Don’t
  Do
  It
  
  CSIMM is waaaay waaaay waaay ahead of me in White Burg; Ahead of me on red Burg.
  
  That’s why I am pushing you to taste non-Napa to help broaden your palate and help you go bankrupt at the same time. Win-win

• csimm commented:

  9/14/22, 7:52 AM - Lite is far more progressive than my cyclops palate will ever be. I’m in Purgatory at the moment. On the dark side of the moon where my celler is constantly shifting. Like you B., I was almost entirely Napa cab a number of years ago but I now have less than 30% of my holdings as Napa. It was even less not too long ago but I’ve had a bit of a resurge back into Napa. Champagne and white Burgundy took reign in my celler... slowly increasing Bordeaux. Some red Burgundy and even a little Italian have made their ways into the cellar as well. Frankly I’m now just trying to buy better wines… Less about QPR and Tuesday night wines than I am about just trying to have a celler that has some top representations of different regions. Of course there’s a price tag there that I have to be ever aware of. Napa, Bordeaux, Champagne, white Burgundy… Those are my favorite regions that I’m trying to capitalize more on and hone in my purchasing there.... well, and SQN et al... Christ it never ends.

• bsumoba commented:

  9/14/22, 7:55 AM - Lite - My wife has a huge pool area/pool house renovation she wants to do. I fear that I will indeed go bankrupt. But, I will have some awesome wine to numb the pain and to help me ignore any bill collector phone calls. I just need to figure out how to get $10K of my mortgage to identify as student loans. That'll help a tad.
  
  CSIMM - I think I started to take my first few steps on the yellow brick road. I've really wittled my producer list in Napa to maybe a dozen or so producers, most of which make essentially 1 wine (Scarecrow, Eisele, Macdonald, VHR, Promontory, Bella Oaks, etc, etc). With about only half my cellar full, I got plenty of room for wine across the pond. I have been buying Champagne quite frequently already from Billecart to Krug to Cristal. I love champagne and Chablis has been something I've been buying since the wife really liked that over the buttery, oaky Napa chard stuff. Napa/CA pulled me back in a bit when guys like Maayan with his Bien Nacido or VV with their Platt Chard moved to more white burg style wines.
  
  I think CSIMM is further along and Lite is on cruise control on that path already if I have to guess. Like CSIMM, I used to d oquite a bit of QPR, but found myself feeling a bit let down on some of those wines, especially when you have tasted the likes of Macdonald and Eisele and such. There is a time and place for QPR wines, but mine have been more to satiate the thirst of friends and family who are not deserving of such fine wine as their intention is to just get $hi7 faced. Hell, I just coravin pulled a 16' Memento Mori blend for a Tuesday night, just because. I would've never done that 3 years ago.

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/14/22, 8:17 AM - My cellar, in order is: Bordeaux, Napa… then Champs, Burgundy and now Italian (super limited strict additions). Like CSIMM no QPR purchases unless I love the wine and then it’s an added bonus. I stopped buying QPR wines which was the best decision and with that reduced the amount I drank or days of the week. Doesn’t exactly offset the delta but does make a difference.
  
  2019 & 2020 are great years in Burg & Bordeaux (other recent vintages as well)
  2019 is great in Italy and these are not even out/just landing (Tuscany)

• watcheslover commented:

  9/14/22, 8:20 AM - Okay guys, before this post ends up telling us what you saw on tv last night and your wife's rheumatism, I'm going to tell you one last secret that your dear wine critics don't seem to to know:
  
  THERE ARE SPLENDID BURGUNDY BETWEEN $20 AND $50!!!!
  
  I can name hundreds of them, from winemakers you may never have heard of?
  
  And for the most fabulous, of course they are very expensive, but when a 1er Grand Cru from Bordeaux makes between 150,000 and 300,000 bottles a year, many Burgundians make between 300 and 2,000. nice little note to each of their bottles every night before going to bed.
  Of love and craftsmanship

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/14/22, 8:23 AM - BSUMOBA- now QPR does have its place for non-drinking friends although I tend to give them the Austin Hope/Caymus/Etc :)
  
  Also said by every collector early on “I have plenty of room for across the pond” oh my friend you are so screwed :)
  
  Yeah remodels are another reason to drink better juice. I mean why drink less when your overall property is improving.

• bsumoba commented:

  9/14/22, 8:24 AM - So Lite and CSIMM...when are we visiting watches in France so we can learn more about these producers in Burgundy?
  
  Lite - you are right. I'll give them GdL ;)

• watcheslover commented:

  9/14/22, 8:26 AM - Well I love QPR, my daily wine is downgraded Chateauneuf du Pape (because one of the plots is on the other side of the road) in bag in box for 8 euros per liter

• csimm commented:

  9/14/22, 8:29 AM - Don't do that B!! lol... I'll say YES and the next thing ya know we'll all be in France. Then I'll be living in an apartment with three roommates and a guinea pig named Chuckles.

• bsumoba commented:

  9/14/22, 8:32 AM - Ok...Ok. I get it watches. You don't want to hear my opinion on the Ring of Power series on Amazon Prime. I'll get this comment section back on track...sort of.
  
  How do we go about getting some of these producers in Burg? Through a negotiant?

• watcheslover commented:

  9/14/22, 8:32 AM - The funny thing about my cheap super burgundy story is that they are very hard to find in France because they are all sold to importers in the USA. Maybe Napa winemakers are drinking them on the sly?

• bsumoba commented:

  9/14/22, 8:34 AM - I wouldn't be surprised if Patrice at Vice Versa is doing that. I can totally see a bunch of winemakers gobbling up those wines.

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/14/22, 8:52 AM - Watches- Most Napa producers drink Champs & Burgs :)
  
  B- please please don’t bring up a France trip as I have very little will power and my first inclination is always “I am in”. If you see hangover… is it bad I started to look at flights?

• watcheslover commented:

  9/14/22, 9:19 AM - Otherwise, you can always go to Mexico, the plane is cheaper.
  And there, I recommend the L.A. Cetto 2017 Baja California "Petite Syrah". A very nice wine at a very nice price

• csimm commented:

  9/14/22, 9:25 AM - Mexico, eh?.... um.....you all can have Mexico.
  
  ...I'll be the guy panhandling in Pomerol for a glass of Lafleur.

• watcheslover commented:

  9/14/22, 9:29 AM - Impossible. In Pomerol there is a wall that does not allow American immigrants to pass, LOL

• csimm commented:

  9/14/22, 9:32 AM - LOL. Makes sense. We Americans can be quite obnoxious and stand to disrupt the peaceful Pomerol homeostasis.

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/14/22, 9:51 AM - LOL- Priceless... ok not priceless as Pomerol is expensive. Well done Watches, well done.

• bsumoba commented:

  9/14/22, 10:08 AM - It's ok CSIMM and Lite...We'll make our way to Paulliac and St. Estephe area and be so obnoxious there that they will bus us to Pomerol on their dime. We just have to make sure Watches doesn't bribe the bus driver to drop us short in the Entre deux Mers.

• csimm commented:

  9/14/22, 10:13 AM - The one thing you will never see me on when I go to Bordeaux...is a BUS...

• watcheslover commented:

  9/14/22, 11:51 AM - And for lovers of cheap (sorry) super white burgundies; Try this one that is easily found in the USA
  
  Heritiers du Comte Lafon Dry White
  BURGUNDY MÂCON-MILLY-LAMARTINE CLOS DU FOUR 2020
  
  Good evening

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/14/22, 10:29 PM - Good evening. Thanks for the recco- do you have a suggestion in the 150-300 as a must have?

• watcheslover commented:

  9/14/22, 11:12 PM - Hi LiteIt,
  
  A suggestion for what? White Burg?
  
  Henri Boillot Puligny Montrachet 1er La Mouchère, every vintages from 2014

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/14/22, 11:18 PM - Ah merci Watches. I know that producer is a CSIMM favorite as we had two wonderful wines from HB earlier this year. I will add this to my list.

• watcheslover commented:

  9/14/22, 11:19 PM - Apart from that if you are interested, JMQ has just done a tasting of all the Bordeaux Grands Crus of 2011, Pichon Comtesse was crowned.

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/14/22, 11:23 PM - 2011 was a tough vintage for my palate… in Napa or anywhere else for that matter. I have my reservations

• watcheslover commented:

  9/14/22, 11:24 PM - Otherwise, if like me, you like Chablis, the Droin brothers work wonders: Grand Cru Grenouilles and 1er Cru Montée de Tonnerre.
  
  To finish with Meursault: Genevrières by Benjamin Leroux
  
  So

• watcheslover commented:

  9/14/22, 11:30 PM - And finally the must of the must:
  
  Corton Charlemagne: Bonneau du Martray and Chandon de Briailles.

• csimm commented:

  9/15/22, 7:41 AM - Music to my ears Watches. Droin is a top Chablis producer in my opinion, and since using DIAM a decade ago, no premox bottles anymore. Grenouilles, and really all the Grand Crus, are so well done. Just the right amount of girth while still maintaining Chablis typicity (though I know some hyper Chablis puritans prefer less wood influence - ie: Louis Michel). Love Boillot (junior and senior), especially the Mouchere. The price jump recently (at least in US) is disappointing, but that’s everywhere it seems.

• csimm commented:

  9/15/22, 9:27 AM - Stocking up the cellar now with 2019 L'Eglise-Clinet and 2019 Figeac. I blame you Watches :) ... and of course, I blame Lite...I like to blame him for all my BDX spending at this point.

• bsumoba commented:

  9/15/22, 10:27 AM - I already picked up 2x of the 19' Figeac and probably pulling the trigger on a few bottles of the L'Eglise. Now......do I get the 20' Lafleur or even the 19' Lafleur??? Yikes...

• csimm commented:

  9/15/22, 12:54 PM - Yes and yes B. For you, I say you have to get the Lafleur. For me, I say....as you mention..."Yikes!" hahaha. Unless you go EP it's a steeeeeeep tariff.

• bsumoba commented:

  9/15/22, 2:22 PM - 1 of 2 complete...LOL. EP is not in my cards at this time. Need larger bankroll to do it properly.

• watcheslover commented:

  9/15/22, 9:43 PM - Bsumoba,
  
  If it was me, in order I would buy
  
  1 Lafleur 2019
  
  2 Lafleur 2012
  
  1 Lafleur 2020

• csimm commented:

  9/16/22, 8:56 AM - 2012 Lafleur? Interesting. Mixed CT reviews and a subpar vintage. Obviously the price is much easier on the wallet comparatively.

• bsumoba commented:

  9/16/22, 8:58 AM - Watches...we need your insight on 2012 ;)

• csimm commented:

  9/16/22, 9:10 AM - Watches...Have you sampled 2021?

• watcheslover commented:

  9/16/22, 9:23 AM - Lafleur 2012 97-98 the best Lafleur for QPR (really better than 2014 and 2017)
  
  Lafleur 2021 98-99 for me the best bordeaux 2021 with Carmes H-B

• csimm commented:

  9/16/22, 9:25 AM - Thanks Watches! Much appreciated.

• watcheslover commented:

  9/16/22, 9:32 AM - and apart from that, in France we have 3 Lafleur 2012 for the price of a 2020 and 4 for the price of a 2019

• watcheslover commented:

  9/16/22, 9:36 AM - And for a 2019 we have 166 bottles of Petite Syrah from Mexico (90-91/100) but we have to cross the wall

• LiteItOnFire commented:

  9/16/22, 5:14 PM - Watches- LMAO!! Have a great weekend!

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