Community Tasting Note

• Motz wrote: 94 points

  December 12, 2020 - Drank over three days. With a 100 point WA score, and 97 from WS, for $79.99 at Costco, had to try it.
  
  First impression: Gorgeously fragrant, downright sexy! Blended red, blue, and purple berry liqueur-like perfume, along with seductive floral notes. Head-turning and knee weakening! Among the most enchanting Vintage Port perfumes I have encountered.
  
  Next impression: While otherwise technically excellent and true to place, the middle and bass substance cannot approach the perfume's quality level. With such vaunted scores, these elements, at this young stage in the wine's life, should present like impenetrable, granite and metallic ore mud. Case(s) in point, like most 2011 Vintage Ports upon release in 2014. Also, several wines of that hallowed vintage present as red wines that just happen to be sweet, which is not the case here. Also noteworthy: the second, and especially the third day, revealed a bite at the back.
  
  Any detraction? Well, what wine making technique often results in high fragrance and back-end bite? Over extraction!...which seems to be the case here.
  
  In several recent notes, particularly regarding so many blackberry and vanilla perfumed, but otherwise soulless and placeless 2016 Left Bank Bordeaux offerings, I have written of a pro reviewer trend to score wines based on ripeness and prettiness, hallmarks of the celebrated, or revolting, depending upon viewpoint, 'International' style. This would seem to be the case here. This aside, this drinks more like Vintage Port than most 2016 Left Bank Bordeaux drink like Left Bank wines. Thus, I prefer this massively overstated wine, compared to those.

  9 people found this helpful 9,604 views

31 Comments

• oldwines commented:

  12/12/20, 6:28 PM - If I understand you correctly, I think I agree wholeheartedly. Many a pro reviewer, a few in particular, plushness and how they thave Astle in the moment. I recognize the difficulty of understanding how a wine will age but isn’t that what they are supposed to be good at?? Grade inflation overall is an issue, more do with the pro’s than the average CT note. Notes with details like yours are so much more helpful. With regard to this wine, I think that backend bite may soften and integrate with time. I find there are 2 broad categories of good vintage port... one like you describe that is pretty massive and needs the age to penetrate the power and another that is much more refined and ages into a very light but ethereal nectar. I did have this at a tasting event almost a year ago now and my taste showed alcohol on the back end, which I did think detracted some from the wine. Realizing this is still a baby, I think it will evolve favorably over decades and be more like the latter category despite its apparent over-extraction. Regarding Bordeaux over the last decade or two...I couldn’t agree more...the wines have evolved from what I started drinking in the 1970’s and 1980’s into near clones of over-ripe cult Cali’s...I truly don’t get the interest especially at the preposterous price points. Several of the 2016 Bordeaux I have tasted have been pitiful hollow, over-extracted, over-ripe plonk compared to the 1982 Ch. Palmer I had last weekend from my cellar.
  
  Fortunately there is lots of great wine around that is still true to form and priced more reasonably and hopefully the nascent trend to less ripeness and extraction will gather steam and bring more sanity and balance.
  
  Cheers!
  
  “oldwines” aka Dave

• hiker_guy commented:

  12/12/20, 7:44 PM - I just have to comment on the trashing of Bordeaux. They are getting riper (and hence higher alcohol) because the weather is hotter and the grapes are getting riper faster. It's a result of climate change not the reviewer's preferences or a rush to change their styles. CA wines will be gone soon as the heat and fires will make it untenable to grow good wine grapes there any more.

• oldwines commented:

  12/12/20, 8:27 PM - While climate change certainly is an issue that can be part of the problem, there is no doubt in my mind that the winemaking changed in response to Parker in the mid 1990’s after all the big 100 point Cali Cabs started to get prices above the first growths. Higher brix at harvest and longer macerations will result in the wines Parker scored high later in his career when, in my opinion, he was unable to taste and appreciate the nuances in “old school” wines after 25+ years tasting 100 wines a day 5 days a week. Maybe it had something to do with the lawsuits, but his scoring changed dramatically in the mid-90’s almost never less than 88 points and 5-10 times more 99-100 pointers per year....I remember lots of top flight wines in lesser vintages that he would score in the 70’s. Check out his original Bordeaux book published in the mid 1980’s if you don’t believe me. With what would happen to the price of a wine he gave 100 pts to its hard not to want to copy that if you are a struggling to make money in the wine business as most wineries are.
  
  Even in Cali there are wineries that make less ripe and extracted wines out of Cabernet/blends but you have to want to defy (or ignore) the critics to do so....and risk not getting as high a price for them. I enjoy and collect many of them, they are balanced, elegant, age well and are food friendly, not just in a steakhouse.
  
  Don’t even get me started on Suckling (and others) whose written notes and scores are predominantly nonsense. If consumers keep buying on scores then they get what they deserve. Better to taste and try wines then buy what you like not what a reviewer says you should like. But to do that you have to try lots of different styles over time or take advice from people who have but are not paid for their opinions...like in this forum.
  
  Dave
  www.dtpwineadvisors.com

• tward commented:

  12/18/20, 4:58 PM - Excellent note and helpful follow on from oldwines. Thanks to you both. I'm looking forward to perusing both of your TNs to find "old school' Bordeaux (and Napa) producers as I really want to avoid paying $50+ for fruit bomb over-extracted over-hyped juice.

• Motz commented:

  12/19/20, 8:08 AM - A great discussion here.
  
  oldwines: Thank you for the kind words. It appears that we are on a similar page regarding the Fladgate. My concern for cellaring it for the long-term is what struck me as medium to medium plus acid. Wines built for longer than, say, 20 years' in the cellar, should pack medium plus to high acid IMO.
  
  Regarding Bordeaux, I would single out Right Bank Saint-Emilion as the predominant purveyor of the "pitiful hollow, over-extracted, over-ripe plonk" you describe. (As an aside, Pomerol producers largely appear to be clinging to traditional styles.) On the Left Bank, my wheelhouse, I would call attention to several interrelated problems: vintages, styles, and professional reviewers on the whole. The 2009 and 2016 vintage accolades befuddle me. The former vintage delivered largely red-fruited, New World (California) forwardness up front, followed by unmistakable unbalanced (phenolic) ripeness at the back, and relatively low acid and tannins. The latter features very pretty, over ripe, blackberry notes, a lot of over extraction, apparently intended to create the impression of terroir imparted substance, more vanilla (oak) than a prodigious baker would know what to do with, and, again, relatively light acid and tannin. Many 2009s have already begun peaking, and the 2016s will very likely have similarly short life-spans. What the pros have seen in these two vintages remains mysterious to me, and at very least irreverent, as massive score inflation for California lookalikes from Left Bank Bordeaux is tantamount to rewarding placeless and soulless wine making. Unfortunately, more than a few Left Bank winemakers have changed their styles to routinely achieve such scores.
  
  As for overall styles, I suspect few purists would argue that Left Bank Bordeaux on the whole is not what it used to be. This noted, several houses are doing their college best to make traditionally styled wines. I contend that Pontet-Canet ranks at the top of this list...in no small part because of the noteworthy variation in blending from vintage to vintage, and also judicious use of oak. Leoville-Barton, for example, which offers tremendous quality terroir, tends to maintain a fairly consistent assemblage, and even more consistent oak regimen. The result: in the more traditionally styled, robust 2014 vintage, which went unheralded by the pros, the wine stands up to the oak. In the ripe, light, and suave 2015 vintage though, the oak overpowers sense of place. And yet, the pros accorded that wine higher scores than the more deserving 2014. Other Châteaux, such as Malescot St. Exupéry, among others, have seemingly lost their souls (which one can only hope they will recover one day).
  
  hiker_guy: Without wading into the toxically politicized waters of climate change, my comments regarding Bordeaux center on the incomprehensible press that over ripe vintages, chief among them, the aforementioned 2009 and 2016, have received. Many pro reviewers have apparently become fully Parkerized, for lack of any better description, handing out points like candy at Christmas to ripeness, over place and soul. Over ripeness tends to result, of course, in higher alcohol, and more importantly in terms of longevity, in lower acid and tannin levels (which some producers try to compensate for by over extraction). Many over ripe wines also tend to be over oaked. In sum, traditionally styled Bordeaux, or as close to traditionally styled as can be had in this modern era of blurred lines, rocks (pun intended). My problem is with professional reviewers celebrating over ripe, over oaked, high alcohol, non terroir driven swill.
  
  tward: Thank you for the kind words. I hope you find my notes and commentary useful.

• hiker_guy commented:

  12/19/20, 8:28 AM - I do agree with you on the reviewers. There seems to be no no end to reviewers with an opinion and in order to get attention they race to give the highest scores. James Suckling and Jeb Dunnick being the 2 who seem to be battling for the crown for ridiculously high score more often than not.
  My last trip to Bordeaux it was over 100F the entire week. This is happening more and more. Climate change is happening. That is fact not politics. It is no longer possible to get grapes ripe at 13% potential alcohol like it used to be. That's plant biology not the winemaker's choice. Sure they could water back but that dilutes the flavors.
  This could be a long thread discussing wine making techniques but I'll leave it there :-)

• Motz commented:

  12/19/20, 8:35 AM - That the climate is changing, there is no doubt. That climate change is overtly and grotesquely politicized, there is also no doubt.
  
  I have had the good fortune of finding many wines from recent vintages that do not exceed 13.5 abv, some at 13. Most recently, the 2015 Villambis. I rarely buy Left Bank Bordeaux that exceeds 14 abv.
  
  Cheers to great wine, wherever it be found!

• adamanko commented:

  2/22/21, 9:28 PM - So... as an inexperienced port drinker, but really having a hard time with high level of concentration, or over extraction, in ordinary wines, should stay away from this wine?

• oldwines commented:

  2/23/21, 4:49 AM - For my 2 cents... this port is a big heavy but worthwhile port but it is for the cellar and I wouldn't approach it for 15-20 years. Many of our other comments back and forth were more generic about over-extraction and over-ripeness in general, e.g. Left Bank Bordeaux. I myself rated this higher at 97 pts. But, I did not have opportunity when I tasted it to experience it over multiple days as MOTZ did.
  
  Cheers!

• Motz commented:

  2/23/21, 6:55 AM - Interesting question. Your point on over extraction is well taken, but wines can be concentrated without being over extracted. I prefer concentrated, non-over extracted wines, such as 2010 Bordeaux and 2011 Vintage Port. Nature provided striking concentration in both cases, and all the wines that I prefer in these two examples, are not over extracted. In my experience, some producers tend to over extract in lighter vintage years, to mimic natural concentration.
  
  This is a touch over extracted, and while it is intensely aromatic and berry forward, it is not naturally concentrated. I know this will hold for a long while, but I do not see a lot of technical improvement. Put differently, compared to 2011, the pros have grossly overstated both 2016 and 2017 vintage Ports.

• adamanko commented:

  2/23/21, 7:43 AM - Well thanks for your views. My only serious encounterment with port is the -11 Churchill VP and that was absolutely faboulous. So... I would do wisely to find some more of that rather than buy this?
  
  Or maybe the -18 of this that have got very high level of praise in Sweden?

• Motz commented:

  2/23/21, 9:21 AM - I prefer 2011 over all other vintages I have tasted, prior and after.

• oldwines commented:

  2/23/21, 9:23 AM - I think older port is still a relative value. So if you don’t have any, I’d agree to go for the 2011’s or even search around for other vintages... 2000 is great and lots of others from the previous century may be worth exploring as well.

• hiker_guy commented:

  2/23/21, 9:35 AM - I just finished a 1997 Dows last night. It was quite nice. Older ports from great vintages are worth seeking out. '97, '94, '85...

• oldwines commented:

  2/23/21, 11:52 AM - MOTZ, your passion for the 2011's as I see from looking at all your notes is persuasive. I have had only one taste of a 2011 so far and it was good but not so impressive (Quinta da Manoella), I do have Warre's, Croft and Quinta do Vesuvio in my cellar in 750ml. I just bought a 375 of each of Dow's and Graham's that I found at a store near me. I will try them this weekend!
  
  Cheers!

• hiker_guy commented:

  2/23/21, 12:06 PM - I share Motz's impressions of the 2011 Dow. I bought a case of 2011 Dow 375's on release and have struggled to keep my hands off them. Even young they are beautiful. I'm letting the 1997's divert me for awhile. 2011 is also my son's birth year so I have some 750's put aside for him.

• tward commented:

  2/23/21, 12:14 PM - You all are getting me tempted to buy some of the 2011 vintage of this wine. I've got a local retailer offering bottles pre-arrival coming from a London negociant. That sounds to me like a sound source - says it's arriving in 6-bottle OWC, but I always worry about provenance the further the purchase from the vintage. Any thoughts on provenance among this knowledgeable bunch?

• hiker_guy commented:

  2/23/21, 12:24 PM - Tward:
  That sounds like a good line of providence to me. It's always a crap shoot the further you are from the release. I'd personally buy those if given the chance. It sounds solid.

• Motz commented:

  2/23/21, 1:27 PM - Oldwines, Thanks. Looking forward to reading your notes on those wines.
  
  hiker_guy, The Dow's is great, and so are many others, even the humblest labels.

• sfwinelover1 commented:

  8/18/22, 6:31 AM - Considering buying some of this, although I’m not generally a drinker of port or other fortified beverages, and came across this thread, which is close to my heart with other, non-fortified wines. On the issue of higher abvs and their inevitability in many vintages due to climate change, I think it important to mention that there are things the growers/producers can do to mitigate, primarily earlier picking, as well as things the drinker can do once the relatively higher alcohol wine is bottled, primarily more aeration, since I’ve had good experiences of better boozy wines integrating alcohol more with air. My tastes may be more in the middle than some on this thread (more New World when it comes to Old World wines, particularly BDX, and more Old World when it comes to New World wines. As an aside, I’m in full agreement with Motz’s distinction, particularly with non-fortified wines, with the distinction between concentration—almost always good—and extraction, almost always less so, at least for my palate.

• Motz commented:

  8/18/22, 3:29 PM - I am glad you found this thread. Have you made a decision on buying? If so, I look forward to reading your tasting note. Cheers!

• sfwinelover1 commented:

  8/18/22, 4:11 PM - I haven’t, although you’ve convinced me that if I do, I should aerate it like the Hindenburg. As a mostly unrelated aside, in which I specialize, my wife and I stayed at the Vallado estate a couple of months ago, and it’s a wonderful accommodation in one of the world’s most beautiful wine countries (Pechaca, which has equally good wines, is likewise a lovely spot with high end accommodations and great food). Appreciate your excellent notes on a variety of European wines, Motz; I’ve found them very helpful and similar to my views.

• Motz commented:

  8/18/22, 4:33 PM - Thank you! I have not been to Vallado, or even the Douro, only to Lisbon, but Douro wines, and those from Dao, strike a chord with me. Touriga Nacional might be my favorite variety on the planet, particularly when left unbridled. It offers the bouquet and flavors of Petit Verdot, with the structure of Cabernet Sauvignon.
  
  I toast you in the last drops of a '14 d'Armailhac!

• sfwinelover1 commented:

  8/18/22, 6:02 PM - TN seems like an appealing grape/varietal, but it’s interesting: by far the 2 best non-fortified wines I had were the Vallado Granja (‘18) and the Pacheca Vale de Abraao (also ‘18), both of which are blends with TN but which don’t have a majority of any one grape (I’m not sure if the TN is the plurality grape); this seems pretty typical for Portuguese wines. The only real analog we have in CA among good or better wines are the “Field Blends” made by producers like Carlisle, T-Vine, Limerick Lane, etc. which typically have lots of Rhones, Alicante, often Zin. the 100%, or close, TNs, were nice wines, but didn’t have the complexity I get from many CS, Syrah, Sangio or Nebbiolo-dominant cuvées, IMO. But I’d be the first to tell you I don’t have enough data points, and I’m always willing to be convinced otherwise. Cheers!

• oldwines commented:

  8/19/22, 8:40 AM - While you guys need no affirmation from me, I have also a very positive view of dry, non-fortified Touriga Nacional. While I have not yet reached Motz's conclusion, I do find it appealing in many of the same ways I feel about off the beaten track native Italian reds (even a little like some warmer vintages of traditional Nebbiolo). It is so dramatically better than the "more popular" Spanish Tempranillo which I find to be one of the most one dimensional and boring wine grapes around when bottled unblended. Cheers!

• sfwinelover1 commented:

  8/19/22, 8:56 AM - Dave, I share much of your skepticism about Tempranillo, which I often find to have the downsides of Napa cabs and Central Coast Rhones (too much alcohol, sweetness, oakiness and vanilla) along with a grapiness quality without the charms of the other wines. That said, on a recent trip when I was able to visit and taste in Rioja, I found wines with much better structure than I’d previously had from that area, so, while Tempranillo is unlikely to replace CS, Sangio, Syrah or Nebbiolo at the top of my pecking order, it has moved up a few notches. As I probably mentioned in another thread, while my tastes skew just a bit more modern than yours, we have by far the most regionally compositionally similar cellars, at least for people whose holdings I can see, on CT, so we obviously have a lot of overlap on preferences.

• Motz commented:

  8/19/22, 9:06 AM - Most Douro wines are blends. Like CdP, where the best houses use primarily Grenache, Syrha, and Mourvèdre, the best dry Douro blends feature Touriga Nacional, Touriga Franca, and Tinta Roriz. The best Port wines feature Touriga Nacional, Tinta Cão, and Souzão. Tinta Roriz is the Portuguese name for Tempranillo. In Portugal, it is a blending grape...as it should be. Touriga Nacional, as Portugal's most noble red variety, dwarfs Tempranillo, as Spain's most noble variety.
  
  As an aside, I speak, read, and write Portuguese.

• sfwinelover1 commented:

  8/19/22, 9:20 AM - Great info; thanks, Motz. While I’m not sure of the blending on the 2 cuvées I mentioned above, it’s my understanding that for some bottlings, like the QdV Reserve Field Blend, there are many varietals (I don’t know why, but 35 sticks in my head), and none is close to a majority. While this makes for a delicious wine, it also, at least for my palate, blurs the varietal characters. As a counter example, with CdPs, most wines are predominantly Grenache, like most LB BDXs CS, most RB BDXs merlot, CF or a relatively equal blend of the 2. To me, and I’ll be the first to admit that my recent trip aside, my experience with Portuguese wines is limited, this leads to wines are less distinctive and complex than many of their Italian, French and, gasp, American, counterparts at similar price points.

• oldwines commented:

  8/19/22, 9:22 AM - Thanks for clarifying my misstatement...totally agree and as with most wines (a few excepted) the blends are more complex and interesting.

• sfwinelover1 commented:

  8/19/22, 10:37 AM - Motz, just bought a bottle of the ‘18, $65 on LB’s “Late Harvest Marathon”. No immediate plans to open, but certainly won’t be holding until ‘29, as a pro review suggested!

• Motz commented:

  8/23/22, 2:14 PM - I agree that field blends tend to be delicious but of lesser quality. I interpret this from the knowledge that only a few varieties are noble, which creates structured, intriguing, and nuanced wines. Most Portuguese wines are blends of 2 to 5, higher quality, varieties, similar to Bordeaux, CdP, and Tuscany.
  
  As for the '18 Port, scientific investigation never hurt anyone...at least to my knowledge. :-).
  
  In general, I dislike Tempranillo.
  
  Cheers to you both!

Add a Comment