3/21/2024 - Mark1npt Likes this wine:

Brought blind to tonight's event by JimAronson. I forget what his airtime was for this bottle. Lighter magenta in color when poured. Has a def look of aging to it. By color in the glass alone, I guessed it was an '08 or '10.

Nose of dandelion (just a hint), red fruit and lavender florals.

Palate of red/black fruit with nice depth and complexity. A hint of iron and oak. The wine is very resolved and very well integrated. There's a softness to it. Again, I never would have pegged this as a '13. It's the only bottle of this vintage I've ever tasted so I can't say for sure whether this is its standard presentation in looking and drinking 5 years older, and advising everyone to start drinking up their bottles......or whether it's a one off unusual bottle and you should keep storing yours? But it is very good and very fun......thanks for bringing Jim!

1/31/2024 - Jimaronson Likes this wine:

The wine is dense, full bodied, sweet blue and black fruit, silky, and a two minute finish. What a wine! The vineyard is one of my favorites and David Abreu did wonders with his version over the years. Now, it is being made by TRB under Maybach and that is just terrific. It is time to open one if you have a couple of bottles.

1/1/2024 - Joealex Likes this wine:

Color is opaque black without of any sign of old wine fading.
Initally smell was shy and wine needed to be decanted 2 hours to open up buquet.
After 2 hs buquet became intense, sweet, fresh and was like smelling of fresh smashed blackberries, currants, cherries on palm completed with cigar tobacco, you immediately want to try the first sip.
There is sweet core of balck and red fruits which is unique seal/stamp for highest quality wines from Napa region. This sweet core is wrapped by a lot of silk like tannins. Amazing balance of sweet black/red friuts, silk tannins, accidity and structure. Simply WOW!
In aftertaste still there is "lion's claw" whis suggests that wine still remains in excellent condition a few more years.
Wine is concentrated, smooth like texture with silk like tannins, intense with long afterstate ( almost a minute). Elegant style as many top quality wines form legendary Napa period 1990-1997, not as heavy or clumsy or alcoholic as so many Napa caberntes form 2012 till present years.
This is true testament of greatness of Helen Turley winemaking from her prime career and legendary Napa period of 1990-1997.
One of the best wines of my life and probably the best wine of 2024 which has just started .

11/15/2023 - RockinCabs wrote:

The complete Spottswoode package in its early maturity if you can say that about a 10 year old wine from this property. Huge nose of arrestingly beautiful fruit, tobacco, spice and herb de provence. Layer after layer of graphite, florals and dark fruit. Lovely.

10/1/2023 - RockinCabs wrote:

Beautiful wine from VHR that displays brilliant dark cherry, cassis, cocoa and graphite notes. Plush, elegant and classic cabernet with site expression in spades. Complex, layered and suave.

What separates VHR from other site in oakville for me is the deft balance of fruit, earth and graphite. Phillips family delivered another fantastic VHR that has it all.

4/7/2023 - BradE wrote:

California Dreamin' and a Pair of Inaugural Corton Charlemagne: This beautiful wine stood out initially and for me remained red WOTN. Absolute class in the glass and it simply had no flaws. From the Singleton Cellar.

5/14/2023 - boillatm Likes this wine:

A nice dinner with friends: Magnum bought at an auction last December (photo uploaded). Opened 30 minutes before serving.
Very beautiful dark crimson color, almost no bricking. The nose didn't give much, but the palate blew me away: stewed plums and many things I wasn't able to identify. The most striking part was the way the wine coated one's mouth at the end. Stunning.
It was so good that we started drinking the bottle at the apero and finished it with steaks.

Older vintages from this wine are no so often available on the market in Switzerland but I have an opportunity I will jump on it. I am also considering buying some more recent vintages although I don't know if the wine-making is at the same level now.

7/12/2023 - RockinCabs wrote:

Nose: Dark berries, black cherry, cedar and a touch of heat.

Palate: Sumptuous dark cherry, cassis and date notes with well integrated spice and graphite. A bit of heat on the palate here, but a very strong modern styled wine.

There was a large presence in this wine, and it did OK maintaining balance. Delicious, a jolly fellow.

7/12/2023 - RockinCabs wrote:

Nose: Cassis, black berry and some briney seaweed notes. Touches of heat, and prune at moments.

Palate: This was a slow slow evolution in glass, and by the end of the night you could see the wine coming into its own. Layered with sweet fruit, crushed rock, violet and cedar notes. Anise and warm licorice. Vibrant black cherry and vanilla emerging towards the end of the night.

Finish: Varied between closed and tannic, and offering dried berry characteristic.

A wine that was slightly cranky tonight. Needing some time in the cellar still or a lengthy decant. Likely exceptional after 6-8 hours in decanter I would expect.

6/10/2023 - RockinCabs wrote:

Nose: Ripe plum, bruised strawberry, cedar, tobacco. There is a perfume of florals to this that suggests an airy sweet personality with a bit of burnt embers underneath.

Palate: Soft and suave with bright cherry, red plum and tobacco. An exceptional palate feel and elegance that suggests Pomerol

Just got a quick taste of this, but it sure made an impression. An outstanding CA merlot.

6/10/2023 - RockinCabs wrote:

Nose: Blackberry, dark cherry, sage, graphite, eucalyptus and crushed stone. There is a blue fruit element and floral nuance on the back end. Alc does poke through here a bit.

Palate: Big sweeping entry of blackberry, blueberry, cassis, graphite and crushed stone. A deep and brooding palate at the moment. Oak needs some added integration.

Finish: Goes on 90 seconds with blueberry, blackberry, cardamom, graphite and crushed tobacco. Very enjoyable as it lingers with a great inner mouth perfume.

4/16/2023 - RockinCabs wrote:

Green pepper, red berries, cherry gastrique, graphite, sweet vanilla oak and cedar. Still has strong tanin at 40 yrs, but it is true to the PLL profile. Nice mouthfeel and just a touch of rusticity.

3/27/2023 - sfwinelover1 Likes this wine:

Second of three from an auction lot about 3 and a half years ago. The first, enjoyed with CT friends csimm (the first time I met him), his partner, and CT friend WBW (the second time I met him) on the eve of the world shutting down just over 3 years ago. I was bowled over by this and have thought about it often since, particularly as I’ve bumped up my wine spend, wondering if I’d find this as transcendent as the earlier bottle; I did. Overall, a very similar tasting experience, with the wine roaring out of the bottle, yet not undrinkably so, with the fruit, tannins and acidity all jostling but more or less balanced, but after about 2 hours, this became absolutely stunning, swapping just a bit of intensity for depth, suppleness, balance and elegance. Other than not quaffing this at a Michelin starred restaurant, although it was just as awesome with my loin lamb chops as the fare at Aziza, the main difference was that I was able to enjoy this over 3 nights in a leisurely way at my house rather than at a 2 hour restaurant meal, and the wine held up immaculately, making me think that this is early peak drinking window at most, and is more likely to improve than decline over the next several years, then easily last a decade going strong thereafter (I’m extending my drinking window by 7 years). I had the ‘08, which was wonderful but just a step below this, a couple of years ago, and have since purchased a ‘10 and several ‘14s (and I may be about to purchase a ‘05 as well); if they’re close to as good, I’ll feel richly rewarded. This is sure to be a welcome guest at any setting, even one with wines far dearer. Great job, Andy Erickson. How apropos that this is my 700th TN. 99 if scoring.

2/18/2023 - RockinCabs wrote:

A great Napa cab that has an old school approach. Blue and black fruites, but not afraid of the greener leathery side of cabernet fruit, and has a sensibly measured level of oak. Best on day 2, so I recommend a long decant if drinking now.

12/30/2022 - Goofienewfy Likes this wine:

Great value wine. PNP first glass tight lots of tannin. Put in fridge overnight and genie came out of bottle. Oak and dark fruit especially raspberry. Saline and beautiful finish. Well done.

12/7/2022 - Quiller wrote:

Opened, poured an dlet sit about 45 min. Then: Not much on the nose. Initial taste is maybe some red fruit, but low-key, not over-ripe; acidity OK; tannins OK, but maybe a little grip on the finish; softish mouthfeel; OK finish. Towards the end of the glass (about 45 min from 1st sip) the taste is a bit more reddish fruit, even sweetish, particularly on the finish. Unfortunately, the astringency has ramped up on the finish as well. Not what I was expecting based on other notes. Hard to tell where this is going or how it will end.

11/6/2022 - Aparritz Likes this wine:

35 years young and still singing. The age was well defined but the color was somehow miraculously light purple — no major bricking or signs of fading. Good depth of flavor, savory and fruity, with a long finish. This bottle lasted for at least two hours, not fading fast like some other older bottles. Superb.

8/31/2022 - Mr T wrote:

drank at a belated Anniversary dinner with my bride who unfortunately was having a terrible GI evening. The wine remains remarkably dark and intense after all these years but still well balanced and more than adequate fruit. Some of the vibrancy is reduced but still deep and rich if slightly acidic. I thought it better and more beautiful the second night

8/7/2022 - RockinCabs wrote:

Stunning aromatics of pencil, cherries, blueberry, sandalwood, florals and a bit of baking spices. Beautiful after an hour in the decanter with a seamless palate and direct delivery of layer after layer of fruit, graphite and crushed flowers.

As second wines go this is awesome. An easy deterrent to prevent me from popping VHR too young.

7/28/2022 - I'd Rather Be Drinking Wine Likes this wine:

Guys Night Out - California Dreaming! (Joe's House): Splash double decant - Abreu is always a welcome treat! IMO, Brad Grimes (winemaker) is a master at his craft (even though he didn't craft these wines...which I recently learned!). This wine is drinking quite well! A very nice balance between fruit and tertiary flavors. As Galewskj noted, this wine got even better with some air, which tells me it should hold at this level for a while, so drink now or save for that special occasion in the not-to-distant future. Nose was floral, with dark fruit, tobacco and old leather. Palate showed plenty dark and red fruit, but with an equal amount of tertiary goodness consisting of a mixture of earth, bramble, tar and tobacco, and hints of blood/iodine. Truly a pleasure to drink! 95+ for me, and my number 2 wine of the night!

7/12/2022 - Gr8penut Likes this wine:

In Vino Veritas (in wine there is truth; [people speak the truth when they are drunk]), a “milestone” bottle from my cellar sacrifices. It turns out, this was a very bittersweet sacrifice as it was the last bottle of Viader I have from the previous century. ☹️🍷 It was a 1995, which would make it about 27 years old, but it only drank like it was 10. This is definitely a tribute to Delia Viader, and her son, Alan Viader, who at the time, was probably just a snot-nosed kid (kidding Alan)! I feel very lucky to have tasted many of these wines over the years and will remember them fondly!

Since this is likely my last posting of theirs from the 19xx, it is worth repeating their story if you have never heard it. They are a really unique family and she is a really unique person!

Delia Viader was born in Argentina, but spent lots of time in France. She graduated with a PhD from Sarbonne (wow!) and moved to California as the single mother of four. She asked her dad for a loan to buy the land. He thought she was crazy because he had already paid for her degree and now she wanted to be a “farmer”! Anyway, she did buy the land and started a winery and went on to develop many firsts in Napa, with growing vertically instead of horizontally, mixing Cab Franc with Cabernet Sauvignon, and too many to list. She is respectfully known as the “Mother of Wine”. Her son, Alan, who helps her produce Viader, has also recently introduced his own label called Intentus, another fine winery that is worth getting on their mailing list!

As I said, bittersweet, but I will likely save this empty bottle to put on my wall when the tasting room is finished. Thanks Delia and Alan for making such memorable bottles of wine!!!🍷🍷🍷🍷👍👍👍👍 #wine #winelover #winelovers #redblend #redblendwine #viaderwinery #viader #alanviader #deliaviader #cabernetsauvignon #cabernetfranc #napawine #napa #napavalley #napacab

6/27/2022 - RockinCabs wrote:

Nose: Blueberry, Cassis, Cedar, Florals and a bit of sandalwood and spice. Deep perfumed nose that you can smell all around the table. As it opens more red notes begin to poke out and compliment the rich black fruit.

Palate: Dark berries, cedar, light wood smoke, cassis, and a dense earthy loom element. Texture is dense yet has an expansive breadth that allows this to fan out beautifully on the palate.

Finsih: Lengthy dark berry, cocoa, cedar and spice. A wonderful 50+ sec finish that is resonant. A beauty.

1/11/2022 - blarmston wrote:

This isn't a TN, but I just got the Save The Date Email.

Does anyone know the price point for these wines?

Given its made by Nigel, I am thinking $225++, but was curious because I'm trying to budget out some big upcoming wine purchases.

Thanks in advance...

1/29/2022 - Rbhan12 Does not like this wine:

Opened in the glass for 2 hours.

The color is deep red/ruby but it's more transparent than I expected. Nose is pretty faint, but I would say dark red berries and cherries, maybe some oak support but nothing distinctly identifiable. Palate is medium full body, same dark red fruits, little bit of acid, no tannin to speak of. Finish is pretty lackluster but mimics the palate. Tails off quickly with dark red fruit and maybe a little bit of crushed rock over time.

Are you guys sure we're drinking the same wine? This isn't very good. Doesn't hold a candle to the other WineAccess NDAs like Yesterday 18, Concept Album 16, Radio Silence 17/18, Editorial 18, or even Phoenix 17. Reminds me a lot of the disastrous Ringer 19 but without as much residual sugar. Maybe I had an off bottle but I haven't had much bottle variation with the WA NDAs.

Drink now, I have no reason to believe there is cellaring potential here.

1/24/2022 - iamandyc wrote:

Tried a bottle from a recent shipment. Drank over 2 days. Seems young as expected. nothing too serious or memorable at this stage. Hope it develops some over the next months or so.

1/19/2022 - iamandyc wrote:

Last bottle was finally good (other 4 were disappointing). Mostly used this to make stew but what was left drank well with dinner. Nothing memorable but complemented the hearty beef stew.

11/30/2021 - RockinCabs wrote:

Agree with others on air for this right now. Second half of bottle left over night was much easier going. Great wine for daily drinking stash that can go a while in the cellar.

11/19/2021 - WineDoc1955 Likes this wine:

Tasted as part of a vertical spanning 1993-2002 vintages. It was the consensus winner. Tannins are integrated, wine is balanced. Wine is still vibrant with lots of fruit.
The wine looks purple colored. The legs are medium. There is light sediment in the bottle. The body is full. The wine has smooth texture. The wine finishes long. The wine has medium acidity.

11/16/2021 - englishman's claret wrote:

Having just had a bottle of this that I really loved, this was a disappointment owing to its fecal, unclean notes. They blew off somewhat, but this wasn’t great.

11/11/2021 - RockinCabs wrote:

Nose: Beautiful concentrated dark berries, cherry tart,, cassis and pencil. Mint, bell pepper and cedar. This is well focused and and has great depth. Palate: berry staining entry, cherry skin, loamy earth and just a touch of menthol. Really nice. Finish: Complete and complex. Great dark cabernet fruit and freshvfloral notes and sweet cedar.

11/11/2021 - RockinCabs wrote:

After the parade of high scores I was expecting a lot out of this wine, but it just never really came together. Oak, vanilla and wood smoke dominated. At 16 yrs is was just too oaky to enjoy. Did not represent the other wines from the vineyard.

11/12/2021 - RockinCabs wrote:

Early look at this wine. Blueberry, pencil, leather and oak. Still tight. Many years of development and promise.

11/4/2021 - iamandyc Does not like this wine:

Still a mediocre bottle of wine. 3 of 5 consumed with no improvement. Mostly for cooking purposes.

9/10/2021 - djhammond Likes this wine:

Another unexpected surprise, (for myself 1983 has always been focused on Palmer and Margaux) i need to start exploring this under publicised vintage year. Firing on all cylinders this is the embodiment of mature Bordeaux.

11/1/2016 - AB16 Likes this wine:

As good as cab and any wine gets. Agree with comments that insignia has gotten overripe but this one amd most I’ve had prior to 2000 are beautiful examples of how great Napa Cab can be.

8/26/2021 - boozebythecreek Likes this wine:

Enjoyed with Shae Kinsman at Wheeler Farms. There is a lot of hype behind this wine and after tasting... it's well deserved. This is just a beautiful, delicate wine that amazingly has some drinkability in it's early youth, in fact it's what Shae used to lead off our tasting of this and the Kinsman Eades wines. Gorgeous expressive nose, with a soft mouthfeel. Tannins grip the tongue, but they're not aggressive. Beautiful black and red fruit. Structure is there to let this one go the distance, but I think in about 5 years this should be singing. Aged in french oak and a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon (80%), Petit Verdot (12%) and Cabernet Franc (8%). The $275 a bottle price tag is steep, but worth it. Sign up for this list now as the inaugural release will be first come, first served.

4/30/2021 - csimm wrote:

3 days in Napa: Arkenstone, Memento Mori, Maxem, The French Laundry, Christopher Tynan, Kinsman, Harlan, Vice Versa, Accendo, Fairchild, Macdonald, and a truckload of others (Napa): This wine zips by the front end and rushes straight into mid-palate pleasure, with deep and dark plum and red and black cherry flavors complimented by earth and subtle spice notes. Stays ever-juicy until it hits the finish, drying up on the tail just enough to beautifully marry the tannins with the fruit into a crescendo that elongates the semi-serious finish. Again, a juxtaposition of sophistication and party-rockin’ flavor appear to be a hallmark of the winemaker here.

Give the Bella Oaks 3+ years of cellar time minimum before tearing into a bottle. Ideally, I’d hold this for even longer to really get a sense of where it’s headed (5-7 years), but really who’s waiting that long to try their first bottle?! 95+ points.

9/17/2021 - sleepyhaus wrote:

Of all the WA NDA Cabs I've tried this is the most backward right now. Dark, brooding fruit, firm tannin, medicinal notes. No particular oak showing though, which is good. I think this could be quite nice in time, as there is ample material present, but I'd forget about it for a year. Several WA cabs have showed plush and easy from the outset, but this is not in that mold.

As a caveat, I opened this bottle now because it endured a serious odyssey in shipping, arriving hot to the touch with a slightly depressed cork, but no signs of seepage. It will be interesting to try one of the remaining two bottles in a year or two and compare to three bottles coming from another batch. Should serve as an interesting experiment in how resilient wine can be to high shipping temps over time.

8/29/2021 - RockinCabs wrote:

There are a small handful of excellent expressions of Syrah in Napa Valley and this co-fermentation from Arietta is among the best. Rich layers of blackberry, boysenberry, cracked pepper, olive, cocoa and cherry. The tannins are a bit hard at this point, but you can see the layers of this fine wine with a few hours of decanting.

7/16/2021 - LiteItOnFire wrote:

2021 Bordeaux Tasting Trip; 7/12/2021-7/16/2021 (Bordeaux): A tasting in Bordeaux of 71 wines, some of the best I have ever had and others, umm, well were disappointing. If you read the Tasting story (and my grading history) I think it will do a much better job putting this in perspective.

I was very much looking forward to my St Estephe tastings, with super high expectations for Cos. While unfair to discount St Estephe based on Cos and Calon Segur tastings, it has certainly made it take a back seat and won’t search it out until I get to taste a great vintage from one of the estates, from my inventory or elsewhere (finally I saved money by not having to double up previous orders after the fact).

Tasted at the chateau
2011 Cos gran vin
2008 Cos gran vin
2011 pagados
2017 Cos Blanc

I wish they were willing to open other vintages as I left more confused than before I arrived. If it wasn’t for the 2010 Pagados had a couple of years earlier, I would have written this Chateau off completely regardless of its pedigree as the wines I tasted this trip, vintages and top performers literally crushed this wine at half the price.

I will withhold final judgment until I taste a better vintage.

7/15/2021 - chapulin Likes this wine:

This is a Wine Access NDA cabernet; these wines tend to be very hit or miss. The quality heavily depends on whether the wine was made by the NDA winemaker or by the Wine Access (or contracted) winemaker, and it's almost impossible to know which. The description suggests that this is a declassified wine from Kinsman Eades, though of course it's impossible to know for sure. But context aside, this Howell Mountain wine was pretty incredible. Blackberry-like fruits dominate at this early stage, and the oak is very prominent. Tannins are very fine-grained, and the wine shows little evolution after being open 24 hours. Given this was $40, it would be very difficult to think of a better AVA-labelled wine at this price. I bought 2 bottles and regret not buying more. Of all the Wine Access NDA Napa cabernets I've had, this is by far the best

7/13/2021 - RockinCabs wrote:

Nose: Red fruit, cherries, vanilla and smokey embers. Palate: Red berries, cherry,, plum and vanilla are polished and slightly glycerin laden. Beam of acidity midpalate and a bit of toasty oak. Finish: Moderate and full, but not showing a lot of tannin.

Very young and just shipped, but I had to pop one to see what this mysterious Rutherford cabernet might be. It is so red fruited that it must be from the eastern side of the AVA as it lacks the dark fruit and licorice tones of the Rutherford bench.

6/26/2021 - RockinCabs wrote:

Nose: Elegant perfumed nose of blackberry, cassis, violets and pencil. Great dark mountain fruit and fresh herb notes to balance. Palate: the rolls royce of HM this enters with brooding presence and elegant intensity. Blueberry, blackberry, pencil, pine tar, fig tart, and seamless edges. Striking acidity as always. Finish: perfumed and dark fruited with over 45 seconds of length.

Too young? Sure. However, I found this shockingly approachable. Years ahead and a clear reference point for HM canernet as always.

7/12/2021 - Rbhan12 wrote:

Opened another bottle 4 months later. Similar impression to prior, but wow I did not recall just how powerful this was wine. Brooding is an understatement. The structure and tannic foundation is absolutely massive.

This needs 3-5 years from now before opening.

Day 2: improved and more open, still very tight and brooding. There's a stellar "dark" wine under there, but won't show itself for a long while. Should easily 10+ years.

Have 4 left so will maybe try another in 2025.

7/10/2021 - MC2 Wines Likes this wine:

Orlando CT & Friends Offline (Fishbones): Very similar to our last bottle and a real contender for WOTN. We served this next to a '94 Dunn and for no reason other than the difference in vintages I expected that wine to really outshine this one. But it really didn't. This was great. Vibrant and pretty. More floral than I remember. Lots of secondary notes. It's probably right in the sweet spot of drinking window and really drinking quite well.

5/29/2021 - englishman's claret wrote:

The 1996 Léoville Barton is drinking very well from 750, but from 6L it simply superb. What differs most between formats isn’t the aromatic components, by and large - you’re greeted with an absolutely classic St. Julien nose of cedar, pencil, mixed black berries, and leather. What really differs is the aromatic volume from large format. I had worried this might be slightly closed but it simply leaps from the glass; expressive, evocative, archetypal. What’s not to love? Bravo, Bartons.

5/24/2021 - RockinCabs wrote:

Big and relatively generic high end Napa Cab. Very polished red and blue fruit, minerality, florals and dark spice notes. Higher abv apparent. Generous fruit,, expensive oak and a flashy finish. A good wine, awful QPR. Where will it be in 10yrs?

5/9/2021 - RockinCabs wrote:

Outstanding notes of lanolin, beeswax, red apple, guava and almond. Tropical with just the right amount of oxidative notes at this point. Really nice example of this wine.

3/14/2021 - Francois Le Mouel Likes this wine:

Absolutely brilliant. I wasn’t quite sure after my first two tastings, but this is why it’s so important to assess a wine where it should be consume...around a meal in good company. The first two tasting were from samples and against beasts like Dana Lotus 2017, Dalla Valle Cab 2016 and Bevan Tench 2016...absolutely unfair.

This time around, it was by itself and I decanted it 2 hours prior to dinner. It peaked and remained there after 2.5 hours. The coulour is youthful and the nose is really pronounced. Already showing some complexity with blackberries, blueberries, black cherries, mixed with vanilla, dark chocolate...reminding me of a black forest cake. Pretty similar on the palate with a polished tannic structure, balance and quite some length. Great aromatic finish. This can be enjoyed now or cellared for another 7 years.

4/9/2021 - msuwine wrote:

This integrated and elegant Cabernet blend is drinking beautifully right now, with the layered fruit and earthy structure that make this vineyard so special. Dark red in color and medium in body, the wine offers aromas of fresh boysenberry, charcoal, graphite, leather, peppercorn, and sage. Tilting more savory, the flavors include dried blueberry, cocoa powder, gravel, bay leaf, and crushed rosemary (stems and all), with a finish that goes on and on. Blend of 55% Cabernet Sauvignon, 30% Cab Franc, and 15% Petit Verdot. 14.5% alcohol.

This doesn’t reach the heights of the 2009 Thorevilos (one of the best wines I’ve ever tasted), but this is a quibble if ever there was one. The 2008's integration and balance are incredible for a Napa Cabernet, but do note that it needs at least two hours to really open up, as it becomes more lively and less grainy with air. Here’s hoping future wines from this vineyard (“Ecotone” starting in the 2019) can equal the glories of its past. 96+ for now, with upside in 2022 or later.