Community Tasting Note

• Alexander Smith wrote: 91 points

  December 1, 2023 - A lot has been said about this wine, Neal Martin and William Kelley certainly questioned this wine. Tasting blind this is far from a Paulliac, and honestly a Bordeaux, maybe a Californian Syrah, Napa Cab or Rhone varietal. Certainly a little messy, not a bad wine just very far from a 99-100 point wine which certain critics have stated. There is certainly no terroir aspects to this wine. Nil.
  
  Notes of dark spicy cherry, bruised plum, kirsch, cassis and currents, along with spice, dark bitter chocolate, nutmeg and bay leaves. The palate shows some sort of Syrah style current, fresh herbs, Christmas cake spices , melting tannins, yet the mid-palate struggles to properly fill out leading a medium style of finish. This wine just feels a little messy for the quality. To repeat the wine is fine, I just don't think this is a true representation of the estate.

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26 Comments

• WineGuyDelMar commented:

  12/1/23, 5:00 PM - I am afraid for Bordeaux going down this modern Style. I quit buying CA Cabs because of this. I’m not going to pay $100 plus for these wines. If I pay $40-$75 I’m rarely disappointed. I don’t understand the move to these types of wines in Bordeaux. Sad really

• AGELVIS commented:

  12/2/23, 2:12 AM - Terrific notes. I’m looking forward to trying this.

• Alexander Smith commented:

  12/2/23, 3:52 AM - Not all current Bordeaux estates produce wine like this, PC for sure have taken an interesting turn which makes no sense in my eyes. I hear Pavie is another one (but have not tasted to confirm). What I struggle to understand is how critics are putting this above 95 points and suggesting it will drink well until 2060..good luck with that one... haha

• MN Wine Junkie commented:

  12/2/23, 4:17 AM - I guess I may be in another camp...I find PC takes quite a long time in bottle to start showing its terroir (balanced with fruit)....I am still waiting on 2010s. I would not give up on this wine just yet if I were you. Sounds like you don't really appreciate hedonistic wines, so your wait may even be longer than mine.

• Alexander Smith commented:

  12/2/23, 4:35 AM - They had a new consultant from 2011 who seems to have taken the estate in a different direction, from this tasting on this single bottle I don't see any future potential. but your YMMV

• MN Wine Junkie commented:

  12/2/23, 4:38 AM - YMMV?

• Alexander Smith commented:

  12/2/23, 4:47 AM - Your Milage may vary --> You might have a different experience

• MN Wine Junkie commented:

  12/2/23, 4:57 AM - Well, we all do have different palates! :)
  
  I have not tasted any 19s yet...way too young for my palate. I was reading your tasting notes.....very nice! I notice you seem to gravitate toward CA 2016 and 2019, both very approachable vintages early (my own preference is 18, followed by 16 and 12....haven't made up my mind on 19 yet)...For Bordeaux, my palate seems to prefer older vintages, especially on the left bank (although I am getting older now, so I am tending toward right bank wines)
  
  Based on your notes, I would recommend you get some 2016 VHR....I think that would be a 100 point wine for you! Cheers!

• WineGuyDelMar commented:

  12/2/23, 6:52 AM - Is the 2015 PC like this? I just bought a few so hope not. Reading tasting notes from Mark1npt & AGELVIS it seems like it isn’t. I need to start buying some 03’s I guess.

• Purple Tooth commented:

  12/2/23, 6:57 AM - I’d be really interested to have someone tell me what vintage of post 2000 pontet canet has matured into a classic Bordeaux? Before you go blabbing that it’s too young, remember that you’ve had over 20 yerars to morph. But please share for my edification …thank you :-)

• AGELVIS commented:

  12/2/23, 7:00 AM - My palate is fruit forward and hedonistic, so perhaps it is. ;)

• Purple Tooth commented:

  12/2/23, 7:19 AM - Wine guy, I have a case of 2003 I will sell you! Perfect provenance since release in my cellar. We’d better drink one together before you get mad at me. But…2003 was the last classic attempt for this estate. In 04 they changed to big heavy bottles and pointed away.

• WineGuyDelMar commented:

  12/2/23, 8:13 AM - PT…Why I mentioned 03 because it was before the bigger move to more modern wines. I started buying Bordeaux from 82-90 so that’s my frame of reference. Took a long hiatus and didn’t buy any between 91-2000.
  
  Read my review of 2016 Pape Clement. This is why I’m leary of spending too much on these wines now because they aren’t what I remember. I love the barny 89 & 90 Montrose. I guess those days are over.

• Purple Tooth commented:

  12/2/23, 8:18 AM - I hear you loud and clear...Dont make my mouth water talking about 89 and 90 Montrose. 2 Wines well etched into my memory and expectations from a fine claret.
  Pape Clement pre 2005 is exceptional...I think they lost their way for exactly 10 years and came back to tobacco country in 2016...Lets hope I am right and the trend continues.
  Open something stinky tonight and light a candle...

• WineGuyDelMar commented:

  12/2/23, 8:51 AM - PT Veal in a mushroom cream sauce tonight so probably a Burgundy. The 89 & 90 Montrose & Angelus were the two greatest wines I ever drank. 90 Leoville Las Cases was close as was 89 & 90 Vieux Chateau Certan.
  
  A friend brought an 03 Duhart Milon to dinner in Nashville. It was black fruit, Old School Bordeaux. I loved it. I’ll pay $100 plus for this but not for these new ones.
  
  The other thing I’ve noticed in these new Bordeaux is they are much less extracted. 15 LaTour Martillac & Cantermele are so soft. I know you like these wines. They have Bordeaux character but lack the structure I prefer. I’m fine with the modern StE because I love the blend but they are nothing like the 80’s & 90 wines. Chang is inevitable but sometimes change isn’t better. Case in point…Caymus Cabs. Cheers !!

• MN Wine Junkie commented:

  12/2/23, 9:13 AM - Hope you guys are wrong, or have a different palate than I.....I have quite a few post 2010 Bordeaux wines!

• WineGuyDelMar commented:

  12/2/23, 9:19 AM - MN Wine Junkie I have lots of post 2010 Bordeaux. They aren’t bad, just different than the older vintages.

• VinceRime commented:

  12/2/23, 1:29 PM - Very nice to read all yout comments, but they make me so frustrated! I'm currently on my 30's and the first vintage that I have bought is 2005 when I was 20yo. So my palate of Bordeaux has been kind of formed with these new world Bordeaux.
  However, with time, I notice that I much prefer the aged classic old school Bordeaux. I could put my hand on Larcis Ducasse 88/90 and ducru 85, but very difficult to get aged Bordeaux. Do you have recommandations for estates that keep producing classic Bordeaux in recent vintages? Many thanks.

• WineGuyDelMar commented:

  12/3/23, 7:58 AM - Margaux & Haut Brion are still more classic. If you are interested go to the Discussion Forum and Search…Modern Bordeaux. There is a good thread on this topic. There are lots of good discussion and Jeff Leve also contributes. Just hit the Discussions tab at the top of the Main CT page.

• MN Wine Junkie commented:

  12/3/23, 10:03 AM - VR...You are young...a lot depends on your budget, your ability to store wines and your discipline not to drink them for almost as long as you have been alive!
  
  If you have the budget and storage, I would look at Haut Brion, Cheval Blanc, Lafite and Margaux for First Growths (at least they will appreciate in value in case your palate changes ....which it likely will not regarding those) Next, I would look at La Mission Haut Brion, Angelus, Montrose and Las Cases, and for more budget conscious wines that will age well, I would look at Leoville Barton, Lynch Bages, and Pichon Lalande....of course there are others, but this wouldn't be a bad place to start, at least IMO. :)

• WineGuyDelMar commented:

  12/3/23, 10:11 AM - Leoville Barton & Poyferre are go to wines for me always. Malescot St Exupery too at a lower price point. There are MANY StE wines at very reasonable prices.

• Purple Tooth commented:

  12/3/23, 1:21 PM - You’ve opened the pandora’s box mate. …Yeah and by the way, Mercedes is a nice car!
  
  But while you have been given good advice, if you’re looking for a step out of stride from the leoville gang, stay out of saint emilion on your quest for classical wine. Go north, to saint estephe, look towards old phelan, and old Calon. Then go south, avoiding Pauillac unless you just got paid, and venture into saint Julien. Look for cordier wines like gruaud and talbot, add Saint Pierre and Lagrange to your list. Head further south to pessac and open a bottle of Latour!! ….Martillac that is. Then find your way to domaine de chevalier as wines to keep.
  
  There is so so much correct Bordeaux out there. It’s this search that keeps me going. Anybody can buy a bottle of Lafite…that takes little knowledge. Just a few bucks.

• WineGuyDelMar commented:

  12/3/23, 1:48 PM - PT I forgot to mention Domaine de Chevalier as one I like. I want to try St Pierre & Lagrange. StE I know is mostly modern now & high alcohol but I like the blend. Yes the search is the most fun. We all know when we try new Chateau some we like and some we don’t.

• VinceRime commented:

  12/3/23, 2:17 PM - Thank you for your usefull comments. Til now I have got a cellar ca. 900 bottles with good cellar conditions. I have collected Bordeaux of the 2016 (a lot), some 2018, some 2019, and some 2020. Estates like leoville Barton, Montrose Pichon comtesse, Pichon baron, brane cantenac, chavalier, Beauséjour Bécot, Lagrange, Sociando Mallet, etc. Anyway, it is always interesting to see the point of view of People on Chavalier, for instance, as some consider it as converging to modern style. Also, not sure about the value of first growth Bordeaux (even I am much looking forward to afford Lafite). I'm from the generation that always saw them at 500+ bucks, interest went to other price value region like Loire, Beaujolais, Piemonte.

• Decanting Queen commented:

  12/6/23, 5:28 AM - AGELVIS—let’s try when we are together. I think you have a bottle but I have multiple so IF I can manage the offsite trip I will bring one

• AGELVIS commented:

  12/6/23, 5:29 AM - Excellent. I want to try this.

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