Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus

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Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/16/2020 10:31:55 PM

Eduardo787

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I want to ask my experienced Bordeaux drinkers out there what to expect from second wines of good chateaus. I have absolutely zero experience with this wines and I recently until this year bought my first bottles but I am not sure what is the aging potential. For example I bought a case of Duo De Conseillante 2016 and I am not sure if I should open my firts bottle soon or if they are wines to age for 5-10 years or are ment for early drinking. Tasting notes have been of no help some saying "will not improve with age " and others saying " this will be brutal in 5 years". What is your experience with this kind of wines ? BTW, I am more inclined (by far) to the right bank than to the left, and even more Pomerol.

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/17/2020 7:02:46 AM

Zweder

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Hi Eduardo,

Second wines is not that easy to select I think, but I have quite a few notes on Pomerol wines. If you go to my name and then select my tasting notes, you can summarizem them by “Custom” and then select “Appellation”. With 914 tasting notes, Pomerol is the second one from the top. Several second wines as well.
Hope this is of some use to you.

Cheers,
Zweder.

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/17/2020 7:13:13 AM

Eddie

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I've really been enjoying my bottles of 2009 Virginie de Valandraud (St.-Emilion) lately. Looks like others posting tasting notes agree. This would be a good one to stock up on in strong vintages, like 2016.

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/17/2020 10:05:23 AM

mjobtx

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The only one I buy on a regular basis is Pavillon Rouge du Château Margaux. I usually drink them in a 10 - 20 year window.

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/17/2020 4:35:22 PM

skifree

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This is an interesting topic, as some second wines (like Pavillon Rouge du Chateau Margaux) are lovely, quite expensive, and almost worth its own classification; while others are solid but not spectacular.

Wine Advocate did not review the 2016 Duo, but they gave the 2015 a 2018-2033 drinking window.

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/17/2020 6:01:08 PM

cigar52

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My experience only includes Alter Ego de Palmer and Pavillon Rouge de Chateau Margaux. Both are excellent in the rated years but can be a little disappointing in poor growth years.

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/17/2020 6:50:55 PM

jmcmchi

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In my experience quite variable and as noted by others some are quite expensive. Not always a similar blend to the grand vin, sometimes from young vines Ina new corner of the estate, sometimes regular pick but not good enough/right varietal to go into the grand vin

Watch out for a trend of plain Bordeaux or Bordeaux Superieure, or even parish Appellation, tagged with the estate name in some way. Nothing resembling the respective cru! - other than a premium price

< Message edited by jmcmchi -- 3/17/2020 6:51:59 PM >

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/17/2020 10:08:24 PM

penguinoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmcmchi

In my experience quite variable and as noted by others some are quite expensive. Not always a similar blend to the grand vin, sometimes from young vines Ina new corner of the estate, sometimes regular pick but not good enough/right varietal to go into the grand vin

Some estates make a third wine too -- Paulliac de Latour (as I've seen it called, it's just labelled Paulliac) being one example. It's one I intend to try if I get the chance, though I'd be curious to hear others' impressions of it. I've read it's quite decent, but it's not available here of course. I guess it's (of course) not as good as either their first or second wines, but it's likely as close as I'll ever get to drinking Latour.

I remember trying La Chapelle de Calon a few year ago, which is the third wine of Calon-Ségur. That's always a wine from one specific part of their vineyard (from memory it's clay over limestone while the rest of their vineyard is gravel) that they bottle separately, so it's decided quite differently to other third wines.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmcmchi

Watch out for a trend of plain Bordeaux or Bordeaux Superieure, or even parish Appellation, tagged with the estate name in some way. Nothing resembling the respective cru! - other than a premium price

You mean the wines made from purchased grapes from all over Bordeaux that some of them make -- such as Mouton Cadet? Yeah, I've never been tempted to try these.

(Though someone I used to know once referred to Mouton Cadet as 'trainee sheep', which I found quite amusing!

)

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/18/2020 9:15:25 AM

jmcmchi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: penguinoid

quote:

ORIGINAL:

You mean the wines made from purchased grapes from all over Bordeaux that some of them make -- such as Mouton Cadet? Yeah, I've never been tempted to try these.

(Though someone I used to know once referred to Mouton Cadet as 'trainee sheep', which I found quite amusing! )

I was thinking of things like Bordeaux de Gloria. Latour used to be my favourite 1er, being a relative oddball but with quality all the way and a standout in poorer years. It's a standout in the secondary labels as well

I'd rather not think of trainee sheep or even MC, but there were a couple of years in the 70's/80's that it was a decent wine. Not what I was thinking of, it has been around for decades, even before the first "second labels"

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/18/2020 8:54:54 PM

penguinoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmcmchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: penguinoid

You mean the wines made from purchased grapes from all over Bordeaux that some of them make -- such as Mouton Cadet? Yeah, I've never been tempted to try these.

(Though someone I used to know once referred to Mouton Cadet as 'trainee sheep', which I found quite amusing! )

I was thinking of things like Bordeaux de Gloria. Latour used to be my favourite 1er, being a relative oddball but with quality all the way and a standout in poorer years. It's a standout in the secondary labels as well

I'd rather not think of trainee sheep or even MC, but there were a couple of years in the 70's/80's that it was a decent wine. Not what I was thinking of, it has been around for decades, even before the first "second labels"

I wasn't aware of Bordeaux de Gloria, but it seems the same sort of idea as Mouton Cadet, Clarendelle de Haut Brion, etc -- Bordeaux AOC wines made by a famous estate but not from their own vineyard? As you said, that's a completely different kettle of fish to second or third wines. To confuse matters, I think Mouton Cadet started as a second label for Mouton Rotschild, starting from a few disastrous vintages that Philipe de Rothschild felt didn't live up to the Mouton Rothschild name. At some point, they started using purchased grapes instead.

I tend to look out for second wines and even third wines from reputable estates, but they're not popular here and hence hard to find.

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/19/2020 7:07:00 AM

Tannic Monster

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I have had several vintages of Cos D'Estournel's second wine Les Pagodes de Cos which is about $60 per bottle. I think it is a pretty good QPR and a very solid wine.

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/19/2020 8:08:47 AM

racerchris

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From St Estephe I like La Dame de Montrose ('10, '14, '16), Les Pagodes de Cos ('10, '14), and Le Marquis de Calon Segur ('16).
In St Julien I like La Croix Ducru Beaucaillou ('14), Sarget de Gruaud Larose ('14, '15) and Clos du Marquis ('14).
I've also enjoyed one bottle of 2012 Segla.

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/19/2020 8:20:20 AM

Paul852

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In the last year I've enjoyed:
2009 Blason D'Issan (~US$35)
2000 Les Charmes de Kirwan (no price - from a friend)
2014 Le Haut-Médoc de Giscours Grande Réserve (The third wine rather than the second ~US$30)
2008 Fleur de Clinet (~US$18 for a 375ml)

But there is also some dross, such as
2007 Château La Fleur St. Émilion Grand Cru Second Wine

< Message edited by Paul852 -- 3/19/2020 8:21:33 AM >

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/19/2020 9:03:37 AM

jmcmchi

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Maybe not in the spirit of the OP, but the second wine offerings from Sauternes I've found are good and good value - Carmes de Rieussec and Lions de Suduiraut. Generally not as rich as the grand vin. Costco has had a couple of vintages of each at around $12 for a .375

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/19/2020 10:23:59 AM

Wine Grove

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couple of the best 2nd wines I have tried are:

Virginie Valandraud (go for 2015 or 16)

Reserve de la Comtesse (Pichon lalande)

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/19/2020 10:43:54 AM

Wine Grove

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One other comment I would add, which is a frequent discussion , is I would still generally say that some 1st wines of the better 2nd/3rd/4th growth chateaux you can get in the $50-65 range (ie. Cantenac brown, Brane, Malescot, malartic, etc) for slightly more money than the 2nd wines, are more often than not better wines than the 2nd wines of 1st/ super 2nds.

< Message edited by Wine Grove -- 3/19/2020 10:44:36 AM >

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/19/2020 12:53:07 PM

racerchris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wine Grove

Reserve de la Comtesse (Pichon lalande)

I forgot, opened a 2012 a couple years ago, and have another for some time in the next couple years.

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RE: Second wines of famous Bordeaux estates and chateaus - 3/19/2020 12:58:53 PM

thesternowl

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I feel like the old rule used to be: don't spend your money on buying 2nd's and instead save for the Grand Vin...with few exceptions i.e. those chateaux that make their 2nd's with the same care and expense as their Grand Vin such as Virginie de Valendraud (younger plantings) and Carraudes de Lafite (different assemblage).

I've also heard the following adage: buy the 2nds in the great (often more expensive) vintages and buy the Grand Vin in lesser (often less expensive) vintages.

I don't know if either of those approaches remain sound advice but what I can say is that I've had some pretty delicious 2nd's, particularly Virginie de Valendraud, Les Tourelles de Longueville and Le Marquis de Calon Segur. But all three have been from very good vintages.

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