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Do you speak Orange? - 1/22/2015 6:31:21 PM

johanb

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Joined: 8/6/2006
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Somehow I thought I was up to date on the latest trends in winemaking including organic, biodynamic, even natural wines from frequent trips to Paris until I stumbled across an entirely new style of so-called "orange" wines. Apparently, orange wines have been a hot area among somms in the past few years although I don't recall reading any articles in wine magazines or wine blogs. At first I thought that maybe it was a different name for various rose wines a la "Pitt-Jolie" which have a decidely orange-peach color. It actually refers to the opposite of rose wine making where red grapes have short skin contact before fermentation. It involves white wines macerated on the skins, anywhere from a few days to many months. Skin contact provides tannins, anthocyanins and color not otherwise found in white wines. Wines will range from cloudy-green to decidely orange depending on the grape variety. This style of wine making was apparently very popular in various parts of France and Italy over fifty years ago and was progressively abandonned.

It is supposedly how wine was made over 3,000 years ago (!). Slightly crushed grapes with stems and pips were put in amphorae. Natural yeasts would start fermentation. While red wines would be separated from the skins the white wines would be left with the stems and skins. The amphorae are then sealed with a stone cap and sometimes buried underground. Malolactic fermentation would start naturally and in the spring the finished wine would be transferred to a fresh amphora or bottled. Many of these types of wines have amazing ageing potential. I found out the famous "Vins Jaune" of the Jura AOCs, although not marketed as such, are actually a type of "orange wine" with extended skin maceration but with additional oxydation in the style of a fino sherry. The white wine of Chateau Musar of late Serge Hochar, was actually also a type of "orange" wine, partially explaining its astonishing ageability. Wines from the Friuli region in Italy and also in the Balkans and Georgia are made in that style.

For the past few months I have been on a search for such wines and found very few make it to these shores. Our local Total Wines in Connecticut did not have any and their people had no clue what I was talking about. I did find some stores in New York catering to the organic-natural wine crowd which did carry a few orange wines. There is a fair amount of overlap between orange and natural wines as the extended maceration provides some amount of protection against oxydation so a number of these wines are produced without any sulfur added.

I did find a few interesting wines. They seem to match fantastically well with any type of spicy food or seafood.
Kozlovic Akacia from Malvasia grapes.Croatia About 5 days on skins aged in acacia barrels. $25. Very clean and crisp.
Trinchero (most famous for their great Barberas) Bianco (60% Arneis and 40% Malvasia) Piedmont Italy $21.

In the high end at $75, one of the top biodynamic producers of Jura Arbois wines, Stephane Tissot makes a superlative Savagnin (the white cousin of Traminer/ Gewurztraminer) macerated on the skins and fermented in 250 liter amphorae for six months(!). No sulfur is added, no fining or filtration. Looks vaguely like unfiltered apple cider. Grapes are individually sorted before being loaded unpressed in the amphorae. Possibly one of the best wines I have ever tasted, with a flavor profile quite different from traditional white wines. Nearly pinot like in complexity but with higher acidity and texture. Definitely an IPOB type wine!

I am now finding out winemakers from the Rhone Valley to Oregon are experimenting with orange wines which makes it very exciting.

Has anybody else had any experience with so-called orange or extended maceration white wines?

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Post #: 1

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 1/22/2015 7:18:46 PM

BornToRhone

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Saw the title....

GO SYRACUSE!

(Sorry, had to. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.)

Btw - interesting post. I have tried Musar one time but did not know anything about Orange Wine.

< Message edited by BornToRhone -- 1/22/2015 8:21:14 PM >

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RE: Do you speak Orange? - 1/22/2015 7:41:17 PM

champagneinhand

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From: Upstate New York, California born.
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tried it, but not so impressed. I think this came up about a year ago, but it might have been on LinkedIn. Some crazy stuff on LinkIn. The newest was Chateaux aging their barrels in cement tubes in the sea. WTF??

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RE: Do you speak Orange? - 1/22/2015 7:50:13 PM

Robert Pavlovich

Posts: 1955
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From: West Los Angeles
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IPOB for sure!

Actually the Orange wine I was recommended, Radikon, was very similar to how you describe. I remember it being an exciting wine, and can remember the excitement in my guests eyes the next time I opened a bottle. It's a cool discovery and can taste great. Somehow though, the older and wiser I get, these moments are becoming much more difficult to come across.

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RE: Do you speak Orange? - 1/22/2015 7:55:26 PM

ericindc

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From: District of Columbia
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I've had a few. I rather like them. Hard to pair for a dinner and unless I have like 4-6 people at a dinner, its hard to open a bottle. I kinda wish they were in 1/2 bottles. Would be easier.

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Just waiting for my Grand Cru to age.

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RE: Do you speak Orange? - 1/22/2015 9:05:52 PM

skifree

Posts: 3416
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From: SE King County, Washington
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BornToRhone

Saw the title....

GO SYRACUSE!

+1 from my ancient past. But now I don't speak Orange: Go Hawks!

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Post #: 6

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 1/22/2015 9:27:31 PM

Slye

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quote:

ORIGINAL: skifree

quote:

ORIGINAL: BornToRhone

Saw the title....

GO SYRACUSE!

+1 from my ancient past. But now I don't speak Orange: Go Hawks!

Blue green wine? :-)

I have tried one (I think). Gruenspeil. Quite interesting. It is a hodgepodge of grapes, all traditionally white but the wine is orange, so I am assuming it is made with the skins having extended contact with the juice. I liked it. But I can't say that my experience is extensive at all.

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Post #: 7

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 1/23/2015 3:18:57 AM

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Chambers Street in NYC usually has examples. I like them but agree with Eric--375s would be nice.

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RE: Do you speak Orange? - 1/23/2015 3:21:59 AM

annerk

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Blue danube has probably the largest selection of Croatian wines in the US.

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RE: Do you speak Orange? - 2/9/2015 8:54:26 PM

hellowine

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From: DC, thereabouts - Usually in FL
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One place in DC where I've had orange wines is the Red Hen restaurant.

Here's what's on their posted wine list (don't know if it's current. I haven't been there in a while):
Cornelissen Caricante Blend, Sicily 2013
Movia Pinot Grigio, Brda, Slovenia, 2008
Kabaj Pinot Gris, Brda, Slovenia, 2011
Osscuro Vina Costa Blend, Grenada, Spain, 2012
Zidarich Vitovska, Giulia, Italy 2010
Movia Lunar Ribolla, Brda, Slovenia, 2008
Vei Di Romans Pinot Grigio, Friuli, Italy, 2012
Scholium Sav Blanc Prince, Cali. 2012
Thousand Mils Viura Blend, Rioja, Spain 2012
Massa Vecchia Vermentino, Tuscany, Italy 2011
Donkey & Goat Roussanne, El Dorado, Cali 2013
Osscuro Sav Blanc Blend, Grenada, Spain, 2012
Gravner Breg Blend, Friuli, Italy 2005

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Post #: 10

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 2/10/2015 8:28:14 AM

BoCron

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From: Milton, GA
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I picked up this in a 375ml the other day, is this what you mean? Haven't tried it yet, just saw it and thought it would be interesting.
https://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=1726217

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Post #: 11

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 2/10/2015 9:42:16 AM

tuccipa

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From: Chester Cnty, SE PA
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The people that I know that like orange wine and tried this rave about it. Only way to get it is at the vineyard as it is PA. Could be worth a trip from DC. Interesting winemaker in the middle of mushroom farms.

Va La Vineyards La Prima Donna

https://www.cellartracker.com/producer.asp?iProducer=27290&searchId=7F58BDAF%23selected%253DW1418997_3_Kfb9fae5c79ffbf0f00873eedc6053ed1#

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RE: Do you speak Orange? - 2/10/2015 1:26:23 PM

kingkanu

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From: London
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Robert Pavlovich

IPOB for sure!

Actually the Orange wine I was recommended, Radikon, was very similar to how you describe. I remember it being an exciting wine, and can remember the excitement in my guests eyes the next time I opened a bottle. It's a cool discovery and can taste great. Somehow though, the older and wiser I get, these moments are becoming much more difficult to come across.

I agree with Radikon, is a very good wine, and is orange, you can pour that for most folks and they will enjoy it, I got a 2001 last year and it tastes so fresh still
My other favourite orange wine is from Dario Princic, he makes a Pinot Grigio that no one will identify as such, also a Ribolla Gialla I think that was less interesting
Like some natural wines, orange doesn't have to mean poor wine making

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Post #: 13

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 2/15/2015 10:43:40 PM

Itchy

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For those interested, John Enfield of Enfield Wines in CA makes an orange wine

http://enfieldwine.com/productdetail/?item=13-skch

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Post #: 14

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 2/17/2015 12:39:58 AM

MindMuse

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From: Talking Rock, Georgia
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I wrote a note about a Cali Orange wine I much enjoyed here.

Gravner is worth looking for, and Movia and Radikon. And Abe Schooner's Scholium Project Sauv Blanc.

But for the most part they are for me, when enjoyable at all, mostly so for the cerebral factor. I rarely am interested in a second glass at a sitting.

< Message edited by MindMuse -- 2/17/2015 12:40:46 AM >

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RE: Do you speak Orange? - 2/17/2015 12:45:41 AM

MindMuse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoCron

I picked up this in a 375ml the other day, is this what you mean? Haven't tried it yet, just saw it and thought it would be interesting.
https://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=1726217

No, Orange Muscat is just the varietal name.

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Post #: 16

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 10/10/2015 5:55:41 PM

PhysicsTeacher

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I recently opened my only bottle of 2006 Vodopivec Vitovska Amphora, which I purchased from Garagiste. Prior to this, I was unaware of the existence of orange wines. This was an eye opening experience! It was outstanding.

Today, I decided to try to purchase more orange wine. When I went to record my purchases in Cellar Tracker, I noticed that orange is not an option under Type. Rose is, of course, but orange wines are not rose wines. I would like to see orange added under Type. How do I suggest this?

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Post #: 17

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 10/11/2015 12:35:38 AM

ROEL

Posts: 972
Joined: 4/18/2007
From: Linsmeau, Belgium
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PhysicsTeacher

I recently opened my only bottle of 2006 Vodopivec Vitovska Amphora, which I purchased from Garagiste. Prior to this, I was unaware of the existence of orange wines. This was an eye opening experience! It was outstanding.

Today, I decided to try to purchase more orange wine. When I went to record my purchases in Cellar Tracker, I noticed that orange is not an option under Type. Rose is, of course, but orange wines are not rose wines. I would like to see orange added under Type. How do I suggest this?

There's another forum for that; See under All Forums > Cellar Tracker Support

However, I think that for orange wines it's not the colour that determines whether the wine should be labelled "orange wine". It's the process of producing the wine, which results in a final product with a colour that ranges from light golden over orange to brownish amber.
This is not in line with the other wine types, where it's strictly the colour that determines the denomination.

< Message edited by ROEL -- 10/12/2015 12:11:34 AM >

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RE: Do you speak Orange? - 10/11/2015 7:08:44 PM

NurseDave

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From: Bay Area, California
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Had a buddy go taste at Scribe winery in Sonoma last weekend. He mentioned an orange wine. I have never heard of such a thing. From their website maybe it's the 500ml skin fermented Chardonnay

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Post #: 19

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 10/12/2015 8:36:44 AM

River Rat

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From: Forestville, CA
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Orange wine isn't that new. It's been happening in Sonoma County for a while now. One of the first i remember was Pax Mahle's Wind Gap Piccolo Bastardo. It came out as a Halloween offer in 2010 and 2011 for the '09 and '10 vintages. Since then I have seen a lot of winemakers in the area doing skin fermented whites. RYME Vermentino "His" comes to mind as does Jolie-Laide Trousseau Gris.

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Post #: 20

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 10/12/2015 9:21:21 AM

wine247365

Posts: 1015
Joined: 5/1/2012
From: OC, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PhysicsTeacher

I recently opened my only bottle of 2006 Vodopivec Vitovska Amphora, which I purchased from Garagiste. Prior to this, I was unaware of the existence of orange wines. This was an eye opening experience! It was outstanding.

Today, I decided to try to purchase more orange wine. When I went to record my purchases in Cellar Tracker, I noticed that orange is not an option under Type. Rose is, of course, but orange wines are not rose wines. I would like to see orange added under Type. How do I suggest this?

Being curious about an orange wine, I bought one of these as well and enjoyed it this summer.

Here's a link to the 19 TN's on the wine...
https://www.cellartracker.com/wine.asp?iWine=1001222

Here's a link to where you can currently buy it...
http://www.wine-searcher.com/find/vodopivec+vitovska+amphora+venezia+giulia/2006

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RE: Do you speak Orange? - 9/5/2017 2:32:22 AM

forceberry

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From: Finland
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A late reply to an old thread, but as a small orange wine geek I was confused by the original post, claiming vins jaunes and white Musar are orange wines.

Vins jaunes are definitely not orange wines but instead a style of their own, very similar to that of Fino Sherry but without fortification or solera systems. No skin contact or anything other that would make them orange wines. They don't even taste anything alike!

And Musar is just a regular white wine, only aged extensively before release. Nothing orange here, either.

Furthermore, I've seen people label wines as "orange wines" even when they come across white wines undergoing some pre-fermentation skin maceration. However, it is pretty normal for winemakers to macerate wine skins for hours, even a few days in some white wine styles. For example I've heard many higher-level German Rieslings seeing some period of skin maceration before fermentation yet still they are very normal German Rieslings.

And to the later posts, I myself would love to see orange wines in cellartracker as a category of their own, but I can understand why the CT guys don't want to introduce it in the fear of even more duplicates and confusion. However, it would be still nice if it were possible to somehow distinguish the orange wines from non-oranges, because now there is no way to see what orange wines I've drunk or what I currently have in my cellar. It makes it a tad difficult to organize a tasting of orange wines when you can't sort them easily, but instead you have to remember every single wine individually.

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RE: Do you speak Orange? - 9/6/2017 9:44:42 PM

dbg

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From: Maryland
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Forceberry, you can use the "Bottle Note" to designate orange wines, or any other characteristic you would like to search on. The link below shows how to do this for Coravin bottles but it could be applied to any other term.

http://support.cellartracker.com/article/27-coravin-bottle-tracking

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Post #: 23

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 9/6/2017 10:27:46 PM

grafstrb

Posts: 8837
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: LAla land
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: johanb

Somehow I thought I was up to date on the latest trends in winemaking including organic, biodynamic, even natural wines from frequent trips to Paris until I stumbled across an entirely new style of so-called "orange" wines. Apparently, orange wines have been a hot area among somms in the past few years although I don't recall reading any articles in wine magazines or wine blogs. At first I thought that maybe it was a different name for various rose wines a la "Pitt-Jolie" which have a decidely orange-peach color. It actually refers to the opposite of rose wine making where red grapes have short skin contact before fermentation. It involves white wines macerated on the skins, anywhere from a few days to many months. Skin contact provides tannins, anthocyanins and color not otherwise found in white wines. Wines will range from cloudy-green to decidely orange depending on the grape variety. This style of wine making was apparently very popular in various parts of France and Italy over fifty years ago and was progressively abandonned.

It is supposedly how wine was made over 3,000 years ago (!). Slightly crushed grapes with stems and pips were put in amphorae. Natural yeasts would start fermentation. While red wines would be separated from the skins the white wines would be left with the stems and skins. The amphorae are then sealed with a stone cap and sometimes buried underground. Malolactic fermentation would start naturally and in the spring the finished wine would be transferred to a fresh amphora or bottled. Many of these types of wines have amazing ageing potential. I found out the famous "Vins Jaune" of the Jura AOCs, although not marketed as such, are actually a type of "orange wine" with extended skin maceration but with additional oxydation in the style of a fino sherry. The white wine of Chateau Musar of late Serge Hochar, was actually also a type of "orange" wine, partially explaining its astonishing ageability. Wines from the Friuli region in Italy and also in the Balkans and Georgia are made in that style.

For the past few months I have been on a search for such wines and found very few make it to these shores. Our local Total Wines in Connecticut did not have any and their people had no clue what I was talking about. I did find some stores in New York catering to the organic-natural wine crowd which did carry a few orange wines. There is a fair amount of overlap between orange and natural wines as the extended maceration provides some amount of protection against oxydation so a number of these wines are produced without any sulfur added.

I did find a few interesting wines. They seem to match fantastically well with any type of spicy food or seafood.
Kozlovic Akacia from Malvasia grapes.Croatia About 5 days on skins aged in acacia barrels. $25. Very clean and crisp.
Trinchero (most famous for their great Barberas) Bianco (60% Arneis and 40% Malvasia) Piedmont Italy $21.

In the high end at $75, one of the top biodynamic producers of Jura Arbois wines, Stephane Tissot makes a superlative Savagnin (the white cousin of Traminer/ Gewurztraminer) macerated on the skins and fermented in 250 liter amphorae for six months(!). No sulfur is added, no fining or filtration. Looks vaguely like unfiltered apple cider. Grapes are individually sorted before being loaded unpressed in the amphorae. Possibly one of the best wines I have ever tasted, with a flavor profile quite different from traditional white wines. Nearly pinot like in complexity but with higher acidity and texture. Definitely an IPOB type wine!

I am now finding out winemakers from the Rhone Valley to Oregon are experimenting with orange wines which makes it very exciting.

Has anybody else had any experience with so-called orange or extended maceration white wines?

Great topic! I love these "orange" or oxidative-style whites, but don't drink them very frequently due to my wife not loving them.

Check out some white Riojas -- Lopez de Heredia may be up your alley. I recently tried a mixed vintage (solera-type) bottling from a winery direct imported by K&L --- Honorio Rubias (or something very similar to that --- you can find it on their website) --- and that was quite good, as well.

Last year, I was introduced to a Slovenian producer, Kabaj, and they have an orange wine I found to be pleasing.

and, of course, sherry sherry sherry!

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Post #: 24

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 9/6/2017 10:57:40 PM

jmcmchi

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Savage Grace have come out with an innovative solution to identifying which is orange wine; he has a "Gewurztraminer Orange" and a "Gewurztraminer White" - both good

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Post #: 25

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 9/6/2017 11:07:34 PM

forceberry

Posts: 908
Joined: 8/4/2017
From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dbg

Forceberry, you can use the "Bottle Note" to designate orange wines, or any other characteristic you would like to search on. The link below shows how to do this for Coravin bottles but it could be applied to any other term.

Thanks! That helps keeping my inventory in order. However, it still doesn't help searching for the orange wines I've tasted (i.e. not having owned, only written tasting notes of)...

quote:

ORIGINAL: grafstrb

Great topic! I love these "orange" or oxidative-style whites, but don't drink them very frequently due to my wife not loving them.

Check out some white Riojas -- Lopez de Heredia may be up your alley. I recently tried a mixed vintage (solera-type) bottling from a winery direct imported by K&L --- Honorio Rubias (or something very similar to that --- you can find it on their website) --- and that was quite good, as well.

Last year, I was introduced to a Slovenian producer, Kabaj, and they have an orange wine I found to be pleasing.

and, of course, sherry sherry sherry!

Although Heredia whites and Sherries are great, I think it is a bit misleading to talk about them when talking about orange wines - or say ""orange" or oxidative-style whites", because they are two fundamentally very different things. Apples and oranges.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmcmchi

"Gewurztraminer White"

Who would've thought? :D

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Post #: 26

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 9/7/2017 5:26:08 AM

Smaragd

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From: New York City
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very good orange wines can be found in Friuli Venezia Giulia. At a couple of restaurants in Trieste we were able to sample a half dozen. Perfect intersection of Croatian and Italian approaches.

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Post #: 27

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 9/7/2017 5:48:55 AM

KPB

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I've had wines that were orange hued or even fairly intensely orange colored, but didn't think of it as a " thing"! Will need to check out this new fad...

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Post #: 28

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 9/7/2017 6:05:30 AM

forceberry

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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

I've had wines that were orange hued or even fairly intensely orange colored, but didn't think of it as a " thing"! Will need to check out this new fad...

But were they orange wines per se? I've had many orange-colored wines that weren't orange wines, only white wines with some age. I've also had some orange wines which weren't particularly orange, more like medium-deep yellow.

In that sense, "skin-contact white" might be more descriptive name than "orange wine". Probably this confusion on color is one of the few things that make people think Vin Jaune / Sherry / Tondonia whites / Chateau Musar whites are orange wines, even though they have nothing to do with the style.

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Post #: 29

RE: Do you speak Orange? - 9/7/2017 12:24:30 PM

dbg

Posts: 569
Joined: 10/25/2008
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: forceberry

quote:

ORIGINAL: dbg

Forceberry, you can use the "Bottle Note" to designate orange wines, or any other characteristic you would like to search on. The link below shows how to do this for Coravin bottles but it could be applied to any other term.

Thanks! That helps keeping my inventory in order. However, it still doesn't help searching for the orange wines I've tasted (i.e. not having owned, only written tasting notes of)...

There's a workaround for that too. You can create TNs for wines you don't purchase as well as those you own. Put "orange" somewhere in your TN. Then with Advanced Search you can search your TNs and narrow results with the "containing text" selection and search on "orange." Or whatever text string you want.

< Message edited by dbg -- 9/7/2017 12:25:49 PM >

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Post #: 30