CellarTracker Main Site
Register for Forum | Login | My Profile | Member List | Search

How long can a bottle be upright?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Cellar Talk] >> General Discussion >> How long can a bottle be upright? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/11/2008 3:28:20 AM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 2014
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Something I've been wondering about when buying wine from the store, where the bottles are upright on shelves: how long can a bottle be stored upright before the cork dries out so much that oxidation becomes a problem? It seems that the cheap wines have a relatively fast turn-around time, but the more expensive ones (in the 20-30 euro range) may sit on the shelves for some time before somebody buys a bottle. Of course the very expensive wines (40 euros and up) are generally stored lying down and often in a temp/humidity controlled cabinet (at least here in Finland). Anybody know from experience?
Post #: 1
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/11/2008 9:00:57 AM   
jamscreator

 

Posts: 378
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Indiana USA
Status: offline 		The best advice I can give is to buy from a reputable wine store.  I've purchased some bottles from the local grocery store on a whim during grocery shopping, knowing that the bottles had been improperly displayed upright for longer that I would have liked.  Most reputable wine stores will have the bottles displayed at an angle or horizontal except for the display bottle.  I make it a point to never grab the display bottle!

_____________________________

Jeff Lawson
Twitter: jamscreator

"Drink what you like, and like what you drink."
-Robert Mondavi

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 2
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/11/2008 10:21:39 AM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 2014
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Ahh, if I could, I would go to a wine store! But here in Finland we have the state monopoly on alcohol, ie we have no choice, not even the grocery store... I intend to ask my favourite Alko store (which "specialises" on wine rather than vodka) staff how long the bottles generally sit on the shelves, and to make sense of their answer, I'd appreciate some thoughts! Some of these bottles have untouched dust on them... On the other hand, if a bottle is bad, I will always get my money back, but that doesn't really reassure me if I take the effort to keep a bottle in the cellar for years only to find out that it wasn't worth it 

(in reply to jamscreator)
Post #: 3
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/15/2008 2:51:14 PM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 913
Joined: 10/4/2007
From: Italy
Status: offline 		The latest research suggests that the idea that wine should not be upright because it dries the cork is a myth without scientific foundation. The research claims that the humidity inside the bottle is so high that it would not make any substantial difference whether you put the wine on its belly or upright.

I am a conservative man, so my bottles remain horizontal. But the research claims it is nonsense.

You may google about it and find it. Here's a quick article that mentions it (but I read about it from multiple sources).

http://www.lctwinery.com/wine-myths.html

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 4
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/15/2008 7:21:04 PM   
Bill

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: EU
Status: offline 		NiklasW,

Maestro could be very right. And he probably is.
I have a few experiences I can share with you.

The first:
I once won a bottle of a (mediocre) Bordeaux (St. Emilion Satellite) wine. The organiser of the sports event took the trouble to design a label for the bottle which was glued over the original. For this reason I put this trophy upright in my living room for at least 5 -7 years. Finally I decided to drink the wine instead of keeping this trophy bottle full. And, nothing was wrong with the wine. It was more developed than expected, but that was probably because it was stored too warm all those years.

The second:
I always keep about 12 bottles in upright position in my storage. For some reason there are often 1 or 2 bottles for a long time (years sometimes) among those 12. I never had a problem with the cork.

The third:
Long time ago I bought a German Ice-wine. It was in upright position on the top-shelf of a small wine store. The wine was already 14 years of age. When I tried to uncork the wine about a year later, I pushed the cork easily into the bottle instead of being able to get it out. The wine was oxidised. The cork seemed to be smaller than it should have been. Cannot explain why.
Since then I always push heavily on a cork before I buy a bottle I have my doubts about. If it is impossible to push it in, I buy it.

The fourth:
Once I bought the last bottle on the shelf. It had been in the back of the store, not climate controlled, but in a fairly dark spot. The wineshop owner gave me the very last bottle as well, which had been in the display window in the full sun in upright position for several years. This was a good occasion to taste the difference. The cork of both bottles was not a problem at all. But the display bottle was completely destroyed. In the summer in the full sun (and probably over 35°C) for a few years was fatal. The other bottle was perfectly ok.

My last remark is not one from own experience.
I am told that some wines HAVE to be stored in upright position. As an example I mention Hungarian Tokay Aszu. In spite of the sweetness it should have so much acidity that the latter will destroy the cork if laid down.

And finally…..I feel sorry for the Scandinavians with their government controlled shops. Systembolaget, vinmonopole or I don’t know how you call it in Finland is sh*t for wine lovers. If I am correct Finland is since 19 december 1996 part of the Schengen countries. This means that you can freely import wines to Finland for your own use up to a certain amount.
Good reasons for you to go south for your holidays. ;-)

Hope I have been of some help here.

Best regards,

Bill.

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 5
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/16/2008 12:58:08 AM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 2014
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Thanks Maestro and Bill! I have been a bit worried about this, but your comments make sense: there's 750 ml of liquid in a bottle and only a few ml of air, so why shouldn't the humidity of the air in the bottle be 100%?  I certainly took advantage of the Schengen agreement over christmas and brought back about 50 bottles of wine from the Languedoc region. There are many really good wines there and for 8 euros a bottle straight from the producer! Wow. 

(in reply to Bill)
Post #: 6
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/16/2008 2:24:18 AM   
Pontac

 

Posts: 1143
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline 		Here's a report of a comparative trial of storing identical half bottles upright and on their side and opening after 3 years and then 5 years. -- http://www.winelabels.org/artaging.htm

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 7
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/16/2008 5:40:32 AM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 2014
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Thanks again! Very interesting reading. Soon we will be told that lying bottles on their side will harm the wine...  But gotta admit, the cellar looks nicer with bottle necks sticking out from the racks!

(in reply to Pontac)
Post #: 8
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/17/2008 2:15:24 PM   
nwinther

 

Posts: 928
Joined: 7/28/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill

And finally…..I feel sorry for the Scandinavians with their government controlled shops. Systembolaget, vinmonopole or I don’t know how you call it in Finland is sh*t for wine lovers. If I am correct Finland is since 19 december 1996 part of the Schengen countries. This means that you can freely import wines to Finland for your own use up to a certain amount.
Good reasons for you to go south for your holidays. ;-)


We thankfully don't have that problem in Denmark - which is part of Scandinavia. Here you can buy alcohol pretty much anywhere. The supermarkets often have a pretty nice selection too - and 5. growths are standard in 'most any supermarket. We do have some taxations though (about euro and a half on the wine, bottle, cork, alcohol vol. etc. and then a 25% VAT.). But nothing like Sweden and Norway.

_____________________________

What I lack in size I make up for in obnoxiousness.

(in reply to Bill)
Post #: 9
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/17/2008 2:44:11 PM   
jamscreator

 

Posts: 378
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Indiana USA
Status: offline 		I too have read the articles about 100% humidity inside the bottle and the horizontal vs. vertical storage debate.  I also know that some suspect wines that I have purchased in the past that have been stored upright before I received them had corks that crumbled or had shrinkage, likely in part to the cork not being kept moist on the inside of the bottle.  I think that 99% of wine lovers would tend to agree that horizontal storage is still the best practice!

_____________________________

Jeff Lawson
Twitter: jamscreator

"Drink what you like, and like what you drink."
-Robert Mondavi

(in reply to nwinther)
Post #: 10
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/17/2008 6:30:09 PM   
esb

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 1/17/2008
From: Bend, Oregon
Status: offline 		Don't do it! I haven't read the research, but I know from experience that cork up storage will kill your wine. Even with good quality cork you will eventually get drastic bottle variation within a case, ranging from perfect to disgusting and everything in between. Most bottles will taste oxidized and some of the bad ones will also have VA. After quite some time only a very small percentage will be drinkable.

(in reply to jamscreator)
Post #: 11
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/18/2008 8:40:32 AM   
Pontac

 

Posts: 1143
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: esb

. Even with good quality cork you will eventually get drastic bottle variation within a case, 


The key word is eventually. But unfortunately bottle variation is a fact of life with cork closed bottles, no matter how they are stored.

(in reply to esb)
Post #: 12
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/19/2008 10:39:25 AM   
JohnNezlek

 

Posts: 1191
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester. VA
Status: offline 		Dear all,

Certainly this has been one of the more interesting (and relevant!) threads I have encountered. I am no expert, but most people who have been making wine for any extended period of time have been laying bottles on their sides to keep the corks moist. Although there is certainly the possibiltiy that this practice represents superstition more than fact, I am not willing to experiment over a 10-15 year period with some of my classified growths. The article in which the study of Italian sparkling wines is not really that relevant because of something about the pressure inside of a bottle of sparkling wine. For example, Champagen does not need to be layed down like a Bordeaux. As is often the case, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, although the question about how long a shop has kept it upright is an excellent one. I will note that I bought a bunch of '00 Bordeauxs when I was living in Belgium in 04 and 05. You can figure that the store had the wines for 2-3 years, 4 at the outside. Some were displayed upright (causing me to be a little concerned), so far, none has been flawed.

Cheers,

John

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 13
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/22/2008 7:08:48 PM   
jamscreator

 

Posts: 378
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Indiana USA
Status: offline 		I'm still committed to storing my wines horizontally.  What I normally do with wines with considerable sediment (like yummy vintage ports) is set those bottles vertical for 24 hours before opening to get the sediment to deposit at the bottom before decanting.  Otherwise, all of these good girls and boys are laying down!

_____________________________

Jeff Lawson
Twitter: jamscreator

"Drink what you like, and like what you drink."
-Robert Mondavi

(in reply to JohnNezlek)
Post #: 14
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/22/2008 9:19:04 PM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 7118
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		Small point, but dry corks are sometimes tricky when they are removed.
L.

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 15
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/23/2008 4:15:29 AM   
jamscreator

 

Posts: 378
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Indiana USA
Status: offline 		Yep, I had a cork crumble when opening a 77 Graham Porto not that long ago.  I nearly cried.

_____________________________

Jeff Lawson
Twitter: jamscreator

"Drink what you like, and like what you drink."
-Robert Mondavi

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 16
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/23/2008 12:26:05 PM   
Pontac

 

Posts: 1143
Joined: 8/3/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnNezlek

, I am not willing to experiment over a 10-15 year period with some of my classified growths. 


Wise.

Up to 5 years upright should be OK, but if you're laying down wine for long term maturation, then on laying it on its side makes best sense.

But bear in mind, the cork has a lifetime. It'll deteriorate. Penfolds recorking clinic uses 15 years as the time from which they'll recork their wines.

(in reply to JohnNezlek)
Post #: 17
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/26/2008 6:16:48 PM   
calibabe

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline 		I disagree with the view that it is a myth the cork of a bottle will dry up if stored upright.  My mother had a bottle of chianti for 15 yrs stored upright, i took it as she had no interest in wine and guess what?  the cork crumbled as i unscrewed it.  the wine was corked.

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 18
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/27/2008 4:28:49 AM   
Colonel Lawrence

 

Posts: 7118
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Arabia
Status: offline 		I never leave my wine upright until about to consume.
It should be noted though that all corks are not made equal, in fact they run from single pieces of excellent bark down to reconstituted shavings.  Clearly the latter don't do as well as the good stuff.
I'd still lay down all except maybe screwcap.


_____________________________

First they came for ....................

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 19
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/28/2008 4:44:38 AM   
jamscreator

 

Posts: 378
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Indiana USA
Status: offline 		I've definitely had experience with the quality of corks with different wines.  I'm going to stick to laying all of my wines down until we're ready to pour.  I actually lay down my screw tops as well, for storage space and aesthetics. 

_____________________________

Jeff Lawson
Twitter: jamscreator

"Drink what you like, and like what you drink."
-Robert Mondavi

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)
Post #: 20
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/28/2008 6:15:45 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 913
Joined: 10/4/2007
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Just for the record, my wine stays horizontal too. I was merely pointing out that this research exists and what it indicated.

But also, to be honest, I find anecdotal evidence of bad corks found in wines that stod upright not necessarily compelling as evidence that the research is nonsense, as I can also produce from experience a long list of ruined corks in wines that stayed horizontal from day one (both dry and oversaturated corks).

Now, what I *do* know, is that leaving a wine upright cannot make the wine corked. A corked wine is a result of a contaminated cork, and has nothing to do with humidity.

The issue with being upright is -- according to tradition -- oxidation, as the dry cork would become porous and let air inside the bottle.

Again, my wines remain horizontal -- I am taking no chances. But the research does seem to have a few valid points.

At the end of the day, the main issue is with corks. They are a source of all kinds of problems...

(in reply to jamscreator)
Post #: 21
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/28/2008 8:29:30 AM   
fingers

 

Posts: 8242
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline 		If the cork has TCA, it doesn't matter if it's upright or layed down, the wine will smell and taste of cork. One of the other problems is seepage - and this can happen whether the bottle is up or down.  If the bottle's up, the cork can dry out, contract and let oxygen in.  If the bottle is laid, the cork will stay moist and if there is seepage, you'll notice how much of the cork is saturated with wine.  This may not ruin the wine but simply points out the inferiority of cork over other closures.

< Message edited by fingers -- 1/28/2008 8:34:06 AM >

(in reply to Maestro)
Post #: 22
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/29/2008 9:15:48 PM   
Phantomind

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 7/22/2005
From: Pacifica
Status: offline 		Dear fingers,
You state “the inferiority of cork over other closures”.  What other closures?  Synthetic cork?  Screw cap?  Something else?
I am against the screw cap, but mostly for aesthetic reasons, not because I don’t think they work.  I understand that there are some problems with cork and that good cork is becoming rare.  I am not against alternate closures, but I have not seen anything other than the screw cap yet.  And there is still little information on how well a wine will age with a screw cap or other non cork closure.
As far as corked wines, I am at <1%.  It therefore seems to me that corks are fine.  Some say that the problem with TCA is now in the wineries as much as the cork and that contamination can happen with screw caps.

How much of a problem is it with CT?  At what point is it really a problem that needs a new closure?  Yes, I know that a corked wine is the worst problem ever as you realize that the beautiful wine you just opened is junk.  But it is the same if you accidentally drop the bottle and it broke.  So, maybe we should put our wine in plastic.  Hey, then maybe we can put it in plastic bags inside of boxes with little spigots on them and we can dispense only what we want!

Yes, this is being done, but does it have the same satisfaction of opening a great bottle of wine?  Tradition is important for me, but evolution is important too.  So, what are our alternatives?  Has anyone seen any good options out there?

And, fingers, I am defiantly not picking on you, this is really a question to the CT community, and I am looking forward to reading what all of you think on this topic.
Raul

(in reply to fingers)
Post #: 23
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/29/2008 9:56:24 PM   
fingers

 

Posts: 8242
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline 		Call me a rebel, but I believe that screwcaps and synthetic closures would be preferrable to the "1 in a dozen" contanimation rate that cork is seeing nowadays.  Cannot provide the actual data - but maybe someone else can elaborate. 
Love Italian wines but they need to get over the phobia of alternate closures.  Help me out here oeniophiles because Phantomind has brought up the Holy Grail of current wine issues.  Why can't St. Juliens and Pomerols be sealed with other closures?

(in reply to Phantomind)
Post #: 24
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/30/2008 3:05:56 AM   
Maestro

 

Posts: 913
Joined: 10/4/2007
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I am not sure I have the energy to go through yet another "cork vs. screwcap" or "cork vs. alternatives" debate (I have had this discussion a zillion times already), but I'll give you the current state of affairs in case you don't yet have it:

The accepted facts seem to be:

1) Corks may get contaminated by TCA or other agents (such as TBA). That leads to corked wines.
2) Corks may also fail to prevent air from getting into the bottle in the long run (dryness or oversaturation) leading to oxidation.
3) Screwcaps seal the wine completely (zero air goes in). Screcaps very seldon (almost never) get contaminated by anything. Possible but very rare.
4) Nobody is certain about how much air corks naturally let into the bottle in the long run. There is a thinking that corks let the wine "breathe" as it ages.
5) For white wines, big producers such as Jadot are positive that screwcaps are beneficial even if the corks are not contaminated. He has bottled the same wine from same vintage and same blend with screwcaps and corks, tested after 1 and 2 years, and proclaimed the difference to be very significant and in favor of the screwcap.
6) The same advantage as for white wines seems to be established for red wines that are to be consumed young.


This leads us to the big question: what about "age-worthy" reds (and a few whites, like Hermiatge Blanc)? Would screwcap be OK for a 1st growth?

The answer seems to be related to the cork letting the wine "breathe" in the long run as opposed to the screwcap "zero air" policy.

I have read people defending passionately both sides of the equation. Experiments have tended to show that good corks also let zero air in, but that is contested.

Personally, I am a huge fan of screwcaps. They are extremelly practical and reliable. I would buy any wine (including first growths) with a screwcap if given the choice.

Ultimately it seems that the main factor still is the aesthetics of it . Wines which come in both versions usually still sell better with corks becuase buyers are afraid their guests will find the screwcap wine "cheap" (it is the same wine, for crying out loud). This behavior I file under the long and fat file of "nice examples of human stupidity".

(in reply to fingers)
Post #: 25
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/30/2008 3:56:46 AM   
jamscreator

 

Posts: 378
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Indiana USA
Status: offline 		Oh boy, this probably started a whole new spin on things.  I too have had the same discussions several times. 

Personally, for aesthetic reasons I like cork.  I love opening a bottle with a cork and throwing the cork into the huge box of corks I have.

Obviously the research on cork vs. screw cap is being continually sought, by small and large wineries - from mom and pop to some of the most established and highly respected.

As I have several Aussie Shiraz in the cellar, screw caps are nothing new to me and I have yet to have a bad bottle with a screw cap.  On the other hand, I've only ever had one corked bottle!

I've heard that quality cork is more in demand and harder to find. 

Here's some other research I could find.  Obviously it has to be taken with a grain of salt, as is evident by some of the (biased) sources:

http://www.screwcap.co.nz/grids/index_green.asp?id=220&area=4

http://www.novusvinum.com/features/screwcaps.html

http://wine.appellationamerica.com/wine-review/458/Screw-Cap-or-Cork.html

http://www.winereviewonline.com/tyson_stelzer_screw_caps.cfm

http://wine.about.com/od/storingwines/a/Screwcaps.htm

http://www.thewinemerchantinc.com/educational/CorkVsScrewCap.html

Personally I think we'll continue to see screw caps on the rise.  As long as the wine tastes wonderful and the screw cap isn't a cause for spoilage, I'm all for it.

_____________________________

Jeff Lawson
Twitter: jamscreator

"Drink what you like, and like what you drink."
-Robert Mondavi

(in reply to Phantomind)
Post #: 26
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/30/2008 11:04:01 AM   
Phantomind

 

Posts: 105
Joined: 7/22/2005
From: Pacifica
Status: offline 		Ok, for you pro screw cap wine drinkers.  If we are to get rid of the cork, why not get rid of the bottle?  Rectangular plastic wine boxes are lighter, don't break, and are easier to transport and store.  What does glass give us that we cannot get better in something else?

Also, are our choices only cork or screw cap?  Has anyone seen any other closures?

Raul

(in reply to jamscreator)
Post #: 27
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/30/2008 11:22:16 AM   
GalvezGuy

 

Posts: 5864
Joined: 5/10/2007
From: Galveston, TX
Status: offline 		I have seen glass enclosures with a seal at the top in some Oregon producers.  I am not sure about effectiveness but for drink now wines, probably a good choice.  Synthetic cork imparts a nasty flavor to the wine if left on its side, so I am not a fan.  There are some producers using Tetra Paks (the rectangular "juice boxes").  They are pretty popular in Eurpose and Aussieland, we are starting to see a few over here.  Again, probably a better option for drink now wines.  For things that I am aging, I want to be able to leave sediment behind and not in the decanter, probably hard to do with the box.

_____________________________

Burgundy makes you think of silly things; Bordeaux makes you talk about them; Champagne makes you do them.

(in reply to Phantomind)
Post #: 28
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/30/2008 11:35:31 AM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 2014
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Indeed, I was a bit surprised when I opened a bottle of Jurancon recently. It had a synthetic cork and the wine tasted of it (of plastic at least). Very disappointing. Never synthetic cork for me! 

(in reply to GalvezGuy)
Post #: 29
RE: How long can a bottle be upright? - 1/30/2008 11:44:09 AM   
jamscreator

 

Posts: 378
Joined: 9/10/2007
From: Indiana USA
Status: offline 		I agree with the synthetic corks.  NOT a fan.  I would take a screw cap over a synthetic cork any day of the week.

_____________________________

Jeff Lawson
Twitter: jamscreator

"Drink what you like, and like what you drink."
-Robert Mondavi

(in reply to NiklasW)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Cellar Talk] >> General Discussion >> How long can a bottle be upright? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.156