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[Poll]

Unsustainable packaging

Bring it on. I love the bling!

9% (1)

Not my biggest worry

90% (10)

Total Votes : 11

(last vote on : 11/10/2022 6:50:14 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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Unsustainable packaging - 11/4/2022 11:08:44 AM

KPB

Posts: 4649
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This is the time of the year for incoming shipments... complete with original wood cases, often enclosed in a few fancy cardboard boxes, lots of styrofoam and padding, brochures about the vineyard and the vintage... and then beyond all of that, the bottles themselves. Early this week I tried the 2019 Horsepower. Bottle is massive and heavy, probably more weight in glass alone than the weight of the wine.

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Post #: 1

RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/4/2022 11:10:57 AM

KPB

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From: Ithaca, New York
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I had more options! Somehow my best options all vanished....

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(in reply to KPB)

Post #: 2

RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/4/2022 11:15:27 AM

sastewart

Posts: 589
Joined: 8/16/2012
From: Greater Nashville
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I am not a fan of the heavy, oversized bottles. They are harder to store, harder to pour and a general waste. I have plenty of wine these days so I can afford to be more selective - I very rarely buy wine in oversized bottles.

(in reply to KPB)

Post #: 3

RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/4/2022 11:29:03 AM

KPB

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From: Ithaca, New York
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The missing options were supposed to be:

* Incoming wine season makes me feel personally responsible for global warming
* Please send my wine in ziplock bags made of a compostable material.

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(in reply to sastewart)

Post #: 4

RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/4/2022 11:57:32 AM

ChrisinCowiche

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Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Cowiche, WA
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The glass bottles are the worst culprit by far imo. Will wine drinkers ever switch to a more sustainable container? For high end stuff, unlikely, but for mid range and drink on the way home wines, aluminum and plastic (another dirty word though) bladders are making inroads.

On shippers, styrofoam, winery literature, etc...

Answer one, buy local and pick it up yourself. I remain annoyed at local wineries to me that insist on shipping. Most that we purchase from do not, and we pick up. But I paid $50 today for shipping from Weathereye, when I drive past the vineyard ~ once a month. Granted the winery is not there but they could at least give an option for pickup.

Styrofoam is banned now in Washington, or will be soon. Fiber pulp shippers are just as good and decent sustainability wise.

Real paper with art, personal notes, vineyard data, winemaker notes, from wineries... being 'em on. I am old fashioned but much prefer those personal touches than an e-mail/website versions.

< Message edited by ChrisinCowiche -- 11/4/2022 12:04:50 PM >

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RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/4/2022 12:00:31 PM

Eduardo787

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From: Monterrey Mexico
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If I could buy a triple heavy monster sized bottle I would buy it. I like styrofoam packaging since it protects the wine extremely well from the elements. There are dozens of ways that I contribute being responsible, wine packaging is NOT one of them.

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Post #: 6

RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/4/2022 12:02:27 PM

ChrisinCowiche

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From: Cowiche, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

The missing options were supposed to be:

* Incoming wine season makes me feel personally responsible for global warming
* Please send my wine in ziplock bags made of a compostable material.

You should be able to edit the poll. Or just start another thread. I didn't answer because I saw you post this. I like the ziplock bag suggestion. Maybe with a straw that pokes the hole, like juice boxes! There are bio-plastics (PLA and others) that are compostable, but main challenge is shelf life particularly with a low pH product. The bioplastics can also become PET or others that work better, but they never biodegrade. I deal with this often in my day job packaging fruit juices, sauces, and purees.

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Post #: 7

RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/4/2022 2:52:21 PM

KPB

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From: Ithaca, New York
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My wife remembers her dad and his brother-in-law buying a barrel of red burgundy and one of white, then bottling the wine in a garage. The kids helped and got smashed just on the fumes. And I once ran into some of those bottles, twenty five or thirty years later. They were fantastic wines, although nobody could remember who they bought from that year, or even the specific burgundy appellation for the red. On the white, they were sure: “ah, that was the meursault! Such a wine….”

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(in reply to ChrisinCowiche)

Post #: 8

RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/5/2022 3:16:47 AM

Sean McGrath

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From: US in NL
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quote:

Incoming wine season makes me feel personally responsible for global warming

That would be more or less my vote. I don't really get hung up/guilt about it, but I do believe in forming habits even when they are nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I stopped buying wine from outside Europe two years ago (ok, not the world's biggest sacrifice!). I also hate the styrofoam shipping materials (although we've found a place that recycles it) and particularly dislike bottles that come individually wrapped in some sort of gift wrap plastic.

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Post #: 9

RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/5/2022 5:51:00 AM

khmark7

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From: Chicago suburbs
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Oversized bottles are a complete waste and there isn't much need for styrofoam for shipping purposes unless you are shipping to really hot areas. Simple and recyclable is my preference.

If you are trying to impress people with the size of your bottle, you might be overcompensating....

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Post #: 10

RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/5/2022 8:17:04 AM

Eduardo787

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From: Monterrey Mexico
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Let me give all of you some perspective of why some of us like styrofoam.

Some of us live in the South were temperatures easily get 100f for 3-4 months of the year. Some live were you can have several severe weather events, and some others live in hurracaine propense areas. If you loose power for more than a few hours in the middle of summer it could be VERY bad for wines as temps usually climb very very fast inside our homes. So, for me having this kind of styrofoam shipping containers is a blessing. I keep about 80% of the wines I own in the original boxes piled one above the other in a room. These wines are the ones I am keeping for long time cellaring. So, as you can see have the wines protected against heat or sudden tempearture variation is not a matter of choice but of need.

I still have many boxes from 10 years ago in my cellar, so I don´t even consider a bit that I am being irresponsible with climate. Many of you live in Europe and felt a few months ago a few days of opresive heat, please imagine that heat for months, not days. Now imagine no power and your 1st growths warming up to 80f+ and then coming back to 55f.....not good.

The bottle size, well, I like it and it is a miniscule issue if we take into account the process and growing of vines for example. If we look at things we should look into the whole process and not the visual one but rather the whole process.

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Post #: 11

RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/5/2022 10:05:10 AM

KPB

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From: Ithaca, New York
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Eduardo, I’m ready to concede that you have a special challenge! Why not buy a generator for your wine cellar air-conditioner?

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Post #: 12

RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/5/2022 10:22:40 AM

Eduardo787

Posts: 1555
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From: Monterrey Mexico
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

Eduardo, I’m ready to concede that you have a special challenge! Why not buy a generator for your wine cellar air-conditioner?

In the next few months I am going to install a new air conditioning unit that will be 100% for use when the power goes out. I have a small generator ( I think it is 2,000 watts) and this combo is going to be on standby specifically for that use. Now, we have never have had those kind of emergencies that I see happen from time to time in the USA when severe weather hits, over here is power out a few times a year ( 5 or so) that last between 1-5 hours. In 26 years here in my house the longest we have been without power has been 12 hours and it happened in one of the hottest days I can remember in Monterrey with temps in the 118f. That night was incredible, out of this world experience. Even though you can see my cellar going from 57f to 75f in less than an hour if no power, wines because of the package they are in maybe go up no more than few degrees. The ones that are in the shelves are a different matter. Thats why I prefer to have a very ugly cellar with a lot of protection than a beutiful cellar that without power will turn hot in a few hours. BTW, I do not have a basement. very few homes in Mexico actually have basements

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I can´t be happier than drinkling wine with my friends

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Post #: 13

RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/5/2022 12:29:50 PM

BenG

Posts: 841
Joined: 5/5/2009
From: Australian in Idaho
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787

quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

Eduardo, I’m ready to concede that you have a special challenge! Why not buy a generator for your wine cellar air-conditioner?

In the next few months I am going to install a new air conditioning unit that will be 100% for use when the power goes out. I have a small generator ( I think it is 2,000 watts) and this combo is going to be on standby specifically for that use. Now, we have never have had those kind of emergencies that I see happen from time to time in the USA when severe weather hits, over here is power out a few times a year ( 5 or so) that last between 1-5 hours. In 26 years here in my house the longest we have been without power has been 12 hours and it happened in one of the hottest days I can remember in Monterrey with temps in the 118f. That night was incredible, out of this world experience. Even though you can see my cellar going from 57f to 75f in less than an hour if no power, wines because of the package they are in maybe go up no more than few degrees. The ones that are in the shelves are a different matter. Thats why I prefer to have a very ugly cellar with a lot of protection than a beutiful cellar that without power will turn hot in a few hours. BTW, I do not have a basement. very few homes in Mexico actually have basements

I see Costco is selling Duracell $500 batteries that will power a mid-sized refrigerator for 7 hours. Not sure how many you would need to keep your cellar below 75f for 12 hours. The technology is getting better so these should come down in price soon.

(in reply to Eduardo787)

Post #: 14

RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/5/2022 3:31:50 PM

Sean McGrath

Posts: 371
Joined: 11/3/2020
From: US in NL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenG

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787

quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

Eduardo, I’m ready to concede that you have a special challenge! Why not buy a generator for your wine cellar air-conditioner?

In the next few months I am going to install a new air conditioning unit that will be 100% for use when the power goes out. I have a small generator ( I think it is 2,000 watts) and this combo is going to be on standby specifically for that use. Now, we have never have had those kind of emergencies that I see happen from time to time in the USA when severe weather hits, over here is power out a few times a year ( 5 or so) that last between 1-5 hours. In 26 years here in my house the longest we have been without power has been 12 hours and it happened in one of the hottest days I can remember in Monterrey with temps in the 118f. That night was incredible, out of this world experience. Even though you can see my cellar going from 57f to 75f in less than an hour if no power, wines because of the package they are in maybe go up no more than few degrees. The ones that are in the shelves are a different matter. Thats why I prefer to have a very ugly cellar with a lot of protection than a beutiful cellar that without power will turn hot in a few hours. BTW, I do not have a basement. very few homes in Mexico actually have basements

I see Costco is selling Duracell $500 batteries that will power a mid-sized refrigerator for 7 hours. Not sure how many you would need to keep your cellar below 75f for 12 hours. The technology is getting better so these should come down in price soon.

Ben, for these use cases you want a gasoline generator. Either a simple one, or an all-house with automatic on. When the lights go out at our cottage in Michigan, within fifteen minutes most of the houses' lights are back on.

Btw, Eduardo's part of Mexico seems to have better infrastructure than western Michigan. The longest I have been without power is three days. :-)

< Message edited by Sean McGrath -- 11/5/2022 3:33:34 PM >

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RE: Unsustainable packaging - 11/5/2022 6:20:59 PM

BenG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean McGrath

Ben, for these use cases you want a gasoline generator. Either a simple one, or an all-house with automatic on. When the lights go out at our cottage in Michigan, within fifteen minutes most of the houses' lights are back on.

Yes, you're right, it's still much too small for a wine cellar.

I did some calculations to work out how much energy (very roughly) would be required -

I can't remember how big Eduardo's cellar is but say if it was a 1000 bottle cellar, it might be 50 square feet and 7 foot tall, making 350 cubic feet. One cubic metre is around 35 cubic feet, so a 1000 bottle cellar would be around 10 cubic metres.

The amount of energy to heat one cubic metre of air one degree celsius is 0.993 mJ, so to heat 10 cubic metres by 10 degrees celsius (57F to 75F) is 99.3 mJ (although it would be a bit more than 99.3 mJ because the bottles and shelving would slow down the heating a bit).

One watt is 3,600 joules per hour, so to apply 99.3 mJ in an hour would require 27.6 kW.

I'm not sure how air-conditioning works (do you need to apply the same amount of energy to keep the heat out?) but if the above figures are in the right ballpark, that means requiring at least 27,600 watts to keep the wine at 57 degrees F (on the day that Eduardo was talking about). Let me know if I've missed out major assumptions (or applied the wrong number of zeros!).

Incidentally, the Duracell battery is only 478 watt hours, so you would need 60 or so per hour (at $500 a pop!).

(in reply to Sean McGrath)

Post #: 16