my rant- i just couldn't help myself (Full Version)

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caeleric -> my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 3:27:08 PM)

sorry, this is going to be a long post, but i couldn't help myself. this guy has been p*ssing me off lately with his blogs. i don't know if he's trying to stir the pot or just be cheeky, but i'm over him.

matt kramer's recent blog post on wine spectator:

quote:

Are Americans' Tastes Changing?
Big coffee roasters and a small bunch of California winemakers think it is

Did you happen to notice the announcements a few weeks ago about how Starbucks and Peet's are now offering lighter-roast coffees? This was no small thing, and I confess that it took me by surprise. Now, I do not consider myself any sort of coffee connoisseur. Oh sure, I buy whole beans and grind them before making a double espresso in the morning. But compared with the obsessive coffee geeks out there (and if you think wine geeks are nutty take a look at the blogs of the coffee crowd), I hardly count as anything other than an amateur.

Still, I was struck by the report from Starbucks, a company that hardly makes a move without intensive market research. "It took eight months and more than 80 different recipe and roast iterations before we landed on the exact flavor profile our customers told us they were looking for,” said Brad Anderson, master roaster for Starbucks. “They told us they wanted a flavorful, lighter-bodied coffee that offers a milder taste and a gentle finish."

For its part, Peet's Coffee & Tea, a coffee roaster that started in the Bay Area, introduced lighter-roasted beans in 6,400 grocery stores this past summer and will soon serve a lighter-roast coffee in its 197 stores. That the likes of Peet's, which acquired a near-cult following for its extremely dark–roasted beans, is now embracing a lighter roast is as astounding as hearing that North Korea will hold free elections.

Before you snobbishly say that these coffee marketers are merely pandering to middle-brow coffee tastes, consider that the Wall Street Journal noted in a report on this topic that "A raft of new high-end cafes and coffee roasters, including Intelligentsia Coffee in Chicago and Los Angeles, Blue Bottle Coffee Co. in New York and San Francisco, Four Barrel Coffee in San Francisco, and Handsome Coffee Roasters in Los Angeles, take the embrace of light roast even further: They only sell light-roasted coffee and say that dark roasting is tantamount to ruining good coffee."

What has this to do with wine, you ask? A whole helluva lot, is my answer. Once again, Americans' tastes are changing. Not all of us, and hardly all at once. (With a population of 300 million people, that's never going to happen.) But make no mistake: As has happened before, the American palate is evolving. Anyone with some age on his or her bones knows that the past few decades have seen stunning changes in American food choices, the great majority of them for the better and more sophisticated.

The same applies to wine. What the market-savvy likes of Starbucks have discovered presages what is, in fact, slowly occurring in American wine as well. It's not a wholesale change. After all, both Starbucks and Peet's are continuing to offer their trademark dark-roasted coffees alongside the new, lighter roasts. Rather, it's a parallel universe sort of thing.

In California right now you can find—hell, you can easily drown in—a flood of, er, dark-roasted red wines made from overripe grapes that, as finished wines, clock in at 15 percent alcohol or higher.

Actually, these already-heady "15 percent alcohol" wines can be even more alcoholic than the stated figure on the label. Not only does the federal government allow a generous leeway of 1 percent from the precise measurement for wines with 14.1 percent alcohol or higher, but winemakers often "water back" the unfermented juice of their overripe grapes, effectively reducing the alcohol-by-volume measurement. But the label piously declares a lower alcohol level. Two deceits are accomplished in one stroke. One is a misrepresentation of the actual alcohol content. The other is a misleading impression of how ripe—or rather, overripe—the grapes really were at the moment of picking, at least if you're naively assuming that the alcohol content actually reflects the ripeness of the grapes at harvest.

As the marketing mavens of Starbucks have discovered, the American palate is seeking an alternative to heavy flavors. Are we becoming—dare I say it?–more nuanced? By golly, I think we are.

Witness the recalibration among an increasing number of California winemakers as to what constitutes "ripeness" in a grape. In a reaction against the wine version of "dark-roasted grapes,” newer producers such as Rhys, Copain, Arnot-Roberts, Peay, Kutch and Parr, among others, have put their pocketbooks where there palates are by making wines (mostly Pinot Noir, as well as Syrah) with alcohol levels as low as 12 percent. Longtime producers such as Mayacamas, Au Bon Climat and Cathy Corison, among others, have quietly gone their own restrained way for decades.

Are these producers the mainstream? Hardly. But when Starbucks and even Peet's have recognized that a good number of their customers want flavors that are less imposing than what originally made these businesses so successful, can fine wine be far behind?

Sure, there will always be a considerable demand for big wines with obvious, outsize flavors and plenty of oak. But the day of the "lighter roast" wine is arriving. It's already here in small, prophetic quantities. The more wine lovers try such wines—especially, even essentially, paired with food—the more a taste for such wines will increase.

Remember, it's already happening at a coffee shop near you. Can you doubt that fine wine is next?


my response:

quote:

Matt- Thanks for telling me what I should like. Maybe you can provide some advice for how I can train my nose and palate to enjoy the stemmy, green, underripe, and boring aromas I get from your "nuanced" and "restrained" wines, instead of being wowed and finding great pleasure in ripe, complex, layered, and structured New World wines.

A well-made wine is a well-made wine; if it's in balance, alcohol content isn't an issue. Why is it the criticism du jour to lambast New World winemakers for dealing with overripe grapes, but Old World winemakers who resort to chaptalization get a hall pass? To deride one end of the spectrum because it is more en vogue than the other end of the spectrum because it is more traditional is hypocritical. Are you suggesting these New World winemakers, who have to resort to expensive methods like the watering back and spinning cones or whatever other compensations they have to make for overripe grapes, are doing this on purpose? That's absurd.

I bristle when something comes across as one person telling me their preferences are better than mine. You can tell me that there is a vast divide between the technical prowess and tradition behind making a traditional, perfectly-executed souffle, but I'd rather have a Dairy Queen Butterfinger Blizzard. Does that mean the souffle is a better dessert than the Blizzard? I don't think so, and until you can define or quantify what "better" really means, be careful you don't come across elitist, which is the direction your recent blogs have been leaning. I didn't appreciate your last blog that cited "If you like it, it's good" as a myth of modern wine philosophy. The last thing wine needs is more barriers to entry for potential consumers.

As long as someone out there is making something that floats your boat and someone else is making something that floats my boat, we can agree to disagree and still enjoy this unbelievably pleasurable hobby.


eric- sorry if me posting matt's entry violates copyright. if so, feel free to take this post down.

rant over




S1 -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 3:29:54 PM)

beating the dead horse bro




ChrisinCowiche -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 3:36:34 PM)

Not only that, the Starbuck response is likely due to the fact a large part of America took a taste or two of their burnt black crap that costs $10 a cup and decided Maxwell House for a buck was still okay to drink. 





pjaines -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 3:39:37 PM)

So long as someone doesn't classify a double decaf vente chai latte single decaf shot as a "coffee" I am cool. Peace.




S1 -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 3:40:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisinSunnyside

Not only that, the Starbuck response is likely due to the fact a large part of America took a taste or two of their burnt black crap that costs $10 a cup and decided Maxwell House for a buck was still okay to drink. 



+ 1 million
Our resort last weekend served burnt black crap exclusively. I haven't been the same since




pjaines -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 3:40:46 PM)

BTW - Starbuck = Satan. And I mean Satan in the Fox News kind of paradigm as well.....




ChrisinCowiche -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 3:50:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

So long as someone doesn't classify a double decaf vente chai latte single decaf shot as a "coffee" I am cool. Peace.


My biggest complaint with Starbuck (besides their assinine cup sizing) is that it is very hard to convince them to simply serve you a cup of "coffee".

Sorry to side track your thread, Chris.  My advice is to stop reading the articles from the WS writer who infuriates you. [:D]




smigdiggler -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 3:52:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisinSunnyside

quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

So long as someone doesn't classify a double decaf vente chai latte single decaf shot as a "coffee" I am cool. Peace.


My biggest complaint with Starbuck (besides their assinine cup sizing) is that it is very hard to convince them to simply serve you a cup of "coffee".

Sorry to side track your thread, Chris.  My advice is to stop reading the articles from the WS writer who infuriates you. [:D]



I actually like the look on the barista's faces when I go into a starbucks and order a small black coffee. Many times they are stumped because its as if I am speaking a different language. [:D]




S1 -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 3:52:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

BTW - Starbuck = Satan. And I mean Satan in the Fox News kind of paradigm as well.....

you're a wise man




ChrisinCowiche -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 3:54:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: smigdiggler



I actually like the look on the barista's faces when I go into a starbucks and order a small black coffee. Many times they are stumped because its as if I am speaking a different language. [:D]


Thats at least partly because "small" is not a size in Buckspeak [:D]




champagneinhand -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 4:02:03 PM)

I have become a hater of WS. I don't know if I would even read the crap, but I get it free for another 10 months, yes and maxim...thanks to doing a JJB survey.

I whole-heartily agree with you on people reporting what some stupid study showed. I remember living in the Seattle area and now and again we would go to they supermall towards Tacoma and we would be constantly badgered by people wanting us to come in and do a survey. For $20, I did it once and then never again. Remember most people studied are probably bored shoppers or companions eager to collect that $20. It's all non-sense, but eventually the free market system will decide whether they were wrong or right. As for reasons for this, I am a firm believer that everybody under 34 is still relatively clueless. The are consumer driven or agenda driven sheep. I didn't pick that age I actually saw a show where a guy came to that conclusion and looking around, I concurred. Sadly market corrections will not right itself until we are almost to old to age anything in proper.

Another take is this is agenda driven by Mondavi types in Napa that had cooler years in 10 and again in 11, yet still want to be able to hold or raise prices, with this evidence as justification. I wish I had never worked in marketing because, I am officially jaded forever. I think that is quite common in people between 35-45. We are pawns of Mad Men from places global wide, not just on Madison Avenue, but the hedge fund managers on up. If you have worked there it very hard to deny. My co-rant done.




pjaines -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 4:28:47 PM)

When I lived in San Francisco in the late 90's I used to work with people who arrived at work with about 19 gallons of milk in a bucket that they had ordered 30 miles back and dribbled in a decaf shot of twattachino ....and they used to drink it in their car. I'm sorry....for a start....if you are going to order a coffee at least make time to SIT DOWN AND DRINK IT....and secondly....DONT MAKE IT INTO BABY FOOD FOR A 3 TONNES BABY.....milk.. milk.. milk.. milk.. milk.. milk.. and a dribble of coffee does not make you some Roman sophisticate.....uuurggggjhhhhh. Same rant applies to London these days.....oh man....listen to me.




pjaines -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 4:29:33 PM)

Breathe, Paul....breathe....




vinopkm -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 4:38:14 PM)

Hey. I like my grande 6 pump Chai lattes!

So liking blondes (what Starbucks is calling their lighter roast coffees) make you superior to others? [;)] Always been more of a brunette guy...

Hey everyone's tastes are different and no one is superior over another... except for Robert Parker- that guy is god... [8|]


quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

So long as someone doesn't classify a double decaf vente chai latte single decaf shot as a "coffee" I am cool. Peace.





S1 -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 4:42:20 PM)

When we were in Paris last summer we were waiting to cross Blvd St Michel with a group of American hayseeds who had mapped where EVERY Starbucks was located. It was their judge of a "good" neighborhood.
I seem to remember stopping for Calvados immediately therafter




rlp805 -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 4:42:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisinSunnyside

quote:

ORIGINAL: smigdiggler



I actually like the look on the barista's faces when I go into a starbucks and order a small black coffee. Many times they are stumped because its as if I am speaking a different language. [:D]


Thats at least partly because "small" is not a size in Buckspeak [:D]


Neither is Coffee, it's "drip" and don't get me started on if I want them to leave room for cream!




MindMuse -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 4:44:04 PM)

Dudes, pour yourself a nice Pinot. Or Cab.
Relax.
Repeat.
[;)]




Wine_Strategies -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 4:44:13 PM)

Firstly, great thread. I love a good rant (nice response to Matt, too, kudos!)

Next, great thread.

pjaines, I nearly (ok, i did, a little. OK, lots) wet myself. Bravo, good sir




pjaines -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 4:45:06 PM)

Sorry - I am a bit of a pinkie leftie-love-everyone-liberal-scumbag but I just get the red mist when I see 2 litre jugs of warm milk being swigged whilst walking down the street. It is an irattional hatred. You are right tbough....live and let live.......but if I ruled the world.......vente latte drinkers .....watch out......




Wine_Strategies -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 4:48:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

Sorry - I am a bit of a pinkie leftie-love-everyone-liberal-scumbag but I just get the red mist when I see 2 litre jugs of warm milk being swigged whilst walking down the street. It is an irattional hatred. You are right tbough....live and let live.......but if I ruled the world.......vente latte drinkers .....watch out......


"...bit of..." ? Yeah, whatever [8|]

Nothing to be sorry about, you're absofrigginlutelyright




Stirling -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 4:54:17 PM)

quote:

As long as someone out there is making something that floats your boat and someone else is making something that floats my boat, we can agree to disagree and still enjoy this unbelievably pleasurable hobby.


Well said. There is something very irksome about somebody imposing their tastes on yours. And arrogant. Kramer's rant leaves the not-too-subtle subtext that if you like big wines you lack taste. A very different message than noticing a shift in consumer preference towards more restrained wines. I actually suffered through this in person last night. One of our dinner guests said, in so many words, if you preferred CA Chard over white Burgundy, you lacked wine knowledge. I give the guy who said it credit for being very knowledgeable about wine (he is) but that is all negated by his lack of tact and mis-placed belief in his own vinous superiority. Ass.




pjaines -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 4:57:28 PM)

I avoid my strong politics on this forum, but surely more than 20cl (no idea in old-money) of milk in your coffee makes you an enemy of.....<insert news organisation/political persuation of your choice here...>.

Milky coffee or machiatto? Sheeeeeeeeeet!





Wine_Strategies -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 5:07:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stirling

quote:

As long as someone out there is making something that floats your boat and someone else is making something that floats my boat, we can agree to disagree and still enjoy this unbelievably pleasurable hobby.


Well said. There is something very irksome about somebody imposing their tastes on yours. And arrogant. Kramer's rant leaves the not-too-subtle subtext that if you like big wines you lack taste. A very different message than noticing a shift in consumer preference towards more restrained wines. I actually suffered through this in person last night. One of our dinner guests said, in so many words, if you preferred CA Chard over white Burgundy, you lacked wine knowledge. I give the guy who said it credit for being very knowledgeable about wine (he is) but that is all negated by his lack of tact and mis-placed belief in his own vinous superiority. Ass.


Good one, Stirling [:)]




khmark7 -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 5:28:09 PM)

Caeleric, why is it you feel that Kramer is imposing his tastes upon you?   Is it his statement that overripe wine exists?   Different people appreciate different styles, and I have no doubt that many people change in their preferrence.   My only disagreement with you is the alcohol part.  I don't care who can or can't taste the 16% alcohol in a Cali Zinfandel, but that alcohol for sure still affects a person.  High alcohol in wines gives me acid reflux and the whole alcohol on the brain thing....but then again I only weigh around 155 lbs.




S1 -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 5:36:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7

Caeleric, why is it you feel that Kramer is imposing his tastes upon you?   Is it his statement that overripe wine exists?   Different people appreciate different styles, and I have no doubt that many people change in their preferrence.   My only disagreement with you is the alcohol part.  I don't care who can or can't taste the 16% alcohol in a Cali Zinfandel, but that alcohol for sure still affects a person.  High alcohol in wines gives me acid reflux and the whole alcohol on the brain thing....but then again I only weigh around 155 lbs.

We'll need to fatten you up in Charleston[:)]
HRH is a biker/runner. Once I was (hopefully will get motivated)




Old Doug -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 5:46:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: S1

When we were in Paris last summer we were waiting to cross Blvd St Michel with a group of American hayseeds who had mapped where EVERY Starbucks was located. It was their judge of a "good" neighborhood.



Dear God the cringeworthy shame.... (I did work in Canada for 9years.)

My wife and I noted that if you want to speak English/American English, just go to Paris in June.







Old Doug -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 5:53:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7

Caeleric, why is it you feel that Kramer is imposing his tastes upon you?   Is it his statement that overripe wine exists?   Different people appreciate different styles, and I have no doubt that many people change in their preferrence.   My only disagreement with you is the alcohol part.  I don't care who can or can't taste the 16% alcohol in a Cali Zinfandel, but that alcohol for sure still affects a person.  High alcohol in wines gives me acid reflux and the whole alcohol on the brain thing....but then again I only weigh around 155 lbs.


Karl, we better get you on a strict diet of 2009 Bordeaux to fatten you up a little. [;)]






bretrooks -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 6:06:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: champagneinhand
...
I am a firm believer that everybody under 34 is still relatively clueless. The are consumer driven or agenda driven sheep.
...

Whew, glad I'm 34. Guess my wife's a sheep, though... [8|]

I think Kramer's commentary is a bit of a reach, but I really can't muster any sort of strong emotion about it. At least you guys livened things up with a good coffee rant...




S1 -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 6:08:29 PM)

obviously we needed to vent[:)]




Old Doug -> RE: my rant- i just couldn't help myself (2/21/2012 6:18:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

I avoid my strong politics on this forum, but surely more than 20cl (no idea in old-money) of milk in your coffee makes you an enemy of.....<insert news organisation/political persuation of your choice here...>.

Milky coffee or machiatto? Sheeeeeeeeeet!



Lattes and Cappucinos are commonly served like that, nowadays. They're really like "liquid dessert drinks" or something. Even the so-called "non-fat" ones often get so much sugar added by rapacious consumers or baristas that it's a trip to hyperglycemic heaven.




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