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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/14/2019 9:38:55 AM

wadcorp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul852

quote:

ORIGINAL: wadcorp

So resurrecting this old thread because I just can't let this go.

Had dinner at Sullivan's Steakhouse earlier this week. Called to see about corkage, and ends up it isn't allowed.

"No outside wine can be brought in."

Dang. Was hoping to bring an older bottle for our anniversary celebration, but not to be. Since Sullivan's is on the Kansas side of State Line, that's their prerogative.

Was the food so good that it overrode the instinct to just go somewhere else?

Well, we'd never been. And having $100 gift card since Christmas from my brother-in-law made it a "what the heck" choice.

My wife's lobster got high marks from her.

My steak was pretty good. Not great, but pretty good.

Go again? Not likely. Unless you want to send me a gift card.

.

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Post #: 61

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/14/2019 11:54:18 AM

ericindc

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generally anything under 200% of retail is a bargain in the DC area. On the low end, i regularly see 400-600% of retail (who knows how much that would be wholesale!) in the $40-$80 range of wines. Above that you generally get below 300%... unless it the big name champagne houses, which are rarely under 300% markup.

which is why I hate, hate, hate buying a bottle when out... unless they waive corkage when you buy a bottle.

but the best deal i've had... really ever was the $80 heredia gran rose a couple months ago off a list. But this place also had a 2008 Ganevat Chard on the list for like $150 so go figure.

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Post #: 62

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/14/2019 12:22:07 PM

jmcmchi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericindc.

but the best deal i've had... really ever was the $80 heredia gran rose a couple months ago off a list. But this place also had a 2008 Ganevat Chard on the list for like $150 so go figure.

On this topic, probably the best I've had was either an '88 Pichon Lalande or an '89 Pichon Baron for $60 each in April and June 2005 at a (now-closed) restaurant in Chicagoland

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Post #: 63

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/14/2019 3:46:26 PM

wadcorp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericindc

which is why I hate, hate, hate buying a bottle when out... unless they waive corkage when you buy a bottle.

This. I'm all about buying a bottle if a restaurant will waive corkage when I also bring something.

.

_____________________________

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Post #: 64

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/14/2019 5:50:43 PM

Poppacork

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericindc

generally anything under 200% of retail is a bargain in the DC area. On the low end, i regularly see 400-600% of retail (who knows how much that would be wholesale!) in the $40-$80 range of wines. Above that you generally get below 300%... unless it the big name champagne houses, which are rarely under 300% markup.

which is why I hate, hate, hate buying a bottle when out... unless they waive corkage when you buy a bottle.

but the best deal i've had... really ever was the $80 heredia gran rose a couple months ago off a list. But this place also had a 2008 Ganevat Chard on the list for like $150 so go figure.

I’m sure they figure everyone dining out in DC is on an expense account and doesn’t care about the markup.

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Post #: 65

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/15/2019 6:52:31 AM

mc2 wines

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericindc

generally anything under 200% of retail is a bargain in the DC area. On the low end, i regularly see 400-600% of retail (who knows how much that would be wholesale!) in the $40-$80 range of wines.

Yep - this is NY too. If it's under 200% I think it's nice. I find the nice restaurants will put in some 'hidden gems' for winos that are lesser known wines with more reasonable mark-ups (think a grower champagne like Chartogne-Taillet at 2x) but still have a large portion of the wine list at a higher rate (e.g. the DP at 4x).

< Message edited by mc2 wines -- 6/15/2019 7:09:25 AM >

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Post #: 66

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/16/2019 1:27:07 PM

Chip Merlot

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quote:

I’m sure they figure everyone dining out in DC is on the taxpayers' dime (directly or indirectly) and doesn’t care about the markup.

Fixed it for you.

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Post #: 67

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/18/2019 1:32:19 AM

penguinoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc2 wines

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericindc

generally anything under 200% of retail is a bargain in the DC area. On the low end, i regularly see 400-600% of retail (who knows how much that would be wholesale!) in the $40-$80 range of wines.

Yep - this is NY too. If it's under 200% I think it's nice. I find the nice restaurants will put in some 'hidden gems' for winos that are lesser known wines with more reasonable mark-ups (think a grower champagne like Chartogne-Taillet at 2x) but still have a large portion of the wine list at a higher rate (e.g. the DP at 4x).

Markups can be particularly high on wines sold by the glass, though I guess this is understandable. One of the few things I like about Australian restaurants is that byob is very common -- I think any restaurant can choose to offer this, regardless of whether they have a liquor license or not.

As well as markups, the other disappointing thing is when restaurants clearly don't care about wine and so have their wine selection chosen for them by a distributor, so it's all uninspiring, big-brand commercial wines. Though generally they care enough about wine to add a healthy markup

. A good argument for byo.

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Post #: 68

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/18/2019 6:34:15 AM

Old Doug

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Bah, humbug! Glasses of wine sold in restaurants for more than the cost of the entire bottle, even at retail prices... Bottles marked up to 4, 5, even 6 times their retail price...

Nowadays I'll just have a couple beers or mixed drinks in most restaurants. Maybe a great big honkin' glass of wine at home before we go.

In the main, do alcohol sales subsidize food /the overall operation of a restaurant? Surely they must.

Despite my grouchiness, my heart goes out to many hard-working restaurant owners, operators, wait and kitchen staff. I've read that most restaurants have a small profit margin, commonly 5% or less. Good grief, when I think of all the expenses...

Everything is so expensive anymore.

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Post #: 69

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/18/2019 7:15:16 AM

Paul852

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Doug
In the main, do alcohol sales subsidize food /the overall operation of a restaurant? Surely they must.

I am a significant shareholder in a chain of pubs here in Hong Kong, and also on the wine committee of a private club, so I have some idea of how this works...

In the pubs, yes, the gross margin is higher on drinks than on food (roughly 80% on drinks and 65% on food). There are huge markups on draught beer and on the low end house wines. (i.e the drinks are sold at 5 times cost on average (but the house red is sold at almost 10 times cost!), and the food at about 3 times cost of ingredients)

In the club, it's a bit different: the food and the house drinks are priced at the same gross margin (64%, again selling for roughly 3 times cost), but wines are priced such that the margin on higher end wines is lower the more expensive they get.

But HK may be a bit extreme because the leasing cost of space is horrendous so fixed costs are very high and so gross margins/markups have to be correspondingly high.

< Message edited by Paul852 -- 6/18/2019 7:16:06 AM >

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Post #: 70

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/18/2019 5:53:55 PM

penguinoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Doug

Bah, humbug! Glasses of wine sold in restaurants for more than the cost of the entire bottle, even at retail prices... Bottles marked up to 4, 5, even 6 times their retail price...

Nowadays I'll just have a couple beers or mixed drinks in most restaurants. Maybe a great big honkin' glass of wine at home before we go.

In the main, do alcohol sales subsidize food /the overall operation of a restaurant? Surely they must.

Despite my grouchiness, my heart goes out to many hard-working restaurant owners, operators, wait and kitchen staff. I've read that most restaurants have a small profit margin, commonly 5% or less. Good grief, when I think of all the expenses...

Everything is so expensive anymore.

Yes, it's disappointing -- especially as most restaurants don't have any options in between buying a glass of wine and buying a full bottle. (This is why I like half bottles, and restaurants that also offer wine by the carafe). Trying to stretch a single glass of wine out over an entire meal seems miserly, but they're often too expensive to justify buying two glasses.

I can understand that restaurants do run on tight margins, and they have to price by the glass wines on the assumption that they may not sell the entire bottle before having to replace it.

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Post #: 71

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/18/2019 5:58:40 PM

penguinoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul852

quote:

ORIGINAL: Old Doug
In the main, do alcohol sales subsidize food /the overall operation of a restaurant? Surely they must.

I am a significant shareholder in a chain of pubs here in Hong Kong, and also on the wine committee of a private club, so I have some idea of how this works...

In the pubs, yes, the gross margin is higher on drinks than on food (roughly 80% on drinks and 65% on food). There are huge markups on draught beer and on the low end house wines. (i.e the drinks are sold at 5 times cost on average (but the house red is sold at almost 10 times cost!), and the food at about 3 times cost of ingredients)

In the club, it's a bit different: the food and the house drinks are priced at the same gross margin (64%, again selling for roughly 3 times cost), but wines are priced such that the margin on higher end wines is lower the more expensive they get.

But HK may be a bit extreme because the leasing cost of space is horrendous so fixed costs are very high and so gross margins/markups have to be correspondingly high.

Interesting, thanks for the insight. Oddly, I found it was often cheaper to eat out in HK than in most Australian cities, at least in the low to medium end of the market. However, while rent is cheaper here than in HK, that probably doesn't hold true for other expenses -- food and wine are expensive here in general, and electricity prices are very high. (Diesel is also very expensive, which indirectly affects the cost of everything else as most interstate/intercity transport is by lorry rather than train).

As Old Doug said -- everything is so expensive now!

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Post #: 72

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/19/2019 3:51:33 PM

annerk

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

Yes, yes, yes - I know restaurants say they need to charge an arm and a leg on their wines to break even - blah blah blah. However, the biggest piss take I have seen recently involved a restaurant in London that had bottles of Concha Y Toro Cab Sav Casillero del Diablo on the menu for 25 quid. That is a markup of 500%

Worse thing is - this wine can be bought everwhere in the UK - I mean, you can buy it in gas stations, in supermarkets, in corner shops, children toy shops, everywhere. So everyone knows this wine and knows how much it costs (4.99). So if a restaurant was going to markup by 500% you would at least think they would choose a wine that no-one knows.

What a bunch of criminals.

I didn't order anything - I told the waiter that given the markup on their wine I hate to think what the quality of the food would be like and left.

Can anyone beat 500%?

Most Disney restaurants are a 500% mark up. Considering what they actually pay for it, it's probably closer to 700%

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Post #: 73

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2019 11:15:26 AM

rlp805

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quote:

ORIGINAL: annerk

quote:

ORIGINAL: pjaines

Yes, yes, yes - I know restaurants say they need to charge an arm and a leg on their wines to break even - blah blah blah. However, the biggest piss take I have seen recently involved a restaurant in London that had bottles of Concha Y Toro Cab Sav Casillero del Diablo on the menu for 25 quid. That is a markup of 500%

Worse thing is - this wine can be bought everwhere in the UK - I mean, you can buy it in gas stations, in supermarkets, in corner shops, children toy shops, everywhere. So everyone knows this wine and knows how much it costs (4.99). So if a restaurant was going to markup by 500% you would at least think they would choose a wine that no-one knows.

What a bunch of criminals.

I didn't order anything - I told the waiter that given the markup on their wine I hate to think what the quality of the food would be like and left.

Can anyone beat 500%?

Most Disney restaurants are a 500% mark up. Considering what they actually pay for it, it's probably closer to 700%

A couple of wines that we use as bench marks around Disney are Gogi and Domaine Serene Evenstad Reserve. They typically are in the 75% to 125% range. We had a Epoch Estate at Cali Grill and it was about a 50& mark up. Of course I have no idea what kind of break they are getting from the winery to make it onto Disney property but I would guess it is significant. I think their lower price point wines may have the huge mark ups that you are talking about and if you are talking about Victory and Alberts then all bets are off.

Just checked V&A (about the only Disney restaurant with a wine list on line) which has Gogi for $200 which was about $65 on release.

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Post #: 74

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 10/31/2019 12:48:19 PM

ramwines

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Slightly off topic but worth posting.

In March of 2018 we purchased a condo in Canton, Ohio so that we could spend more time near my 91 year old mother-in-law, especially in the summer. My wife moved away from Canton when she was 20 years old and except for holiday visits, she has not spent any meaningful time in northeastern Ohio in over 45 years.

This year we managed to move our wine cellar from its underground wine cave in the mountains west of Reno, NV to Canton. We have the majority of the wine in 3 large Wine Enthusiast "Nfinity Pro" wine cellars, which decorate one wall in my office. The left overs are boxed in the garage at temps in the 50s to mid-60s. They just arrived here a week ago and I believe they will survive the winter just fine in that environment.

As for restaurant wine prices, the first problem is finding restaurants with a decent wine list. There are not many, in fact only 1 or 2 that I know of in the Canton area that offer quality wines. The pickings are a little better in Akron and further north in Cleveland, but that's an hour+ drive just to find a good wine list.

You may think that with my 800+ bottle wine cellar, I should be able to do the BYOB thing, pay a corkage fee and drink what I really like. Not so... Ohio has liquor laws that prohibit the public consumption of alcohol, which includes public restaurants, unless the alcohol is provided under a specific license by the restaurant. In years past some restaurants would ignore the law and allow BYOB, but earlier this year the state regulators started clamping down and all restaurants have stopped the BYOB privilege.

We're dining at home more these days and inviting friends and family in to enjoy some good wines. My objective is to get the total cellar down to a number that can all fit in my 3 Nfinity cellars before the temps rise in the spring.

I'm considering a California Pinot Noir sale before the holidays. Interested? PM me.

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Post #: 75

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 10/31/2019 10:35:14 PM

penguinoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ramwines

You may think that with my 800+ bottle wine cellar, I should be able to do the BYOB thing, pay a corkage fee and drink what I really like. Not so... Ohio has liquor laws that prohibit the public consumption of alcohol, which includes public restaurants, unless the alcohol is provided under a specific license by the restaurant. In years past some restaurants would ignore the law and allow BYOB, but earlier this year the state regulators started clamping down and all restaurants have stopped the BYOB privilege.

That's really annoying. It's a shame when the law works against both clients and more innovative restaurateurs like this, but I guess there must be some for whom the status quo works well, enough to argue against changing it.

It's one thing that I do like in Australia -- any restaurant can offer BYOB, and they're allowed to do this without a liquor licence (which is required if they want to sell alcohol themselves). Consequently lots of restaurants offer BYOB, as it's the easiest, default option.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramwines
We're dining at home more these days and inviting friends and family in to enjoy some good wines. My objective is to get the total cellar down to a number that can all fit in my 3 Nfinity cellars before the temps rise in the spring.

A worthy objective. Bon courage!

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramwines
I'm considering a California Pinot Noir sale before the holidays. Interested? PM me.

I would be if I weren't on the other side of the planet!

< Message edited by penguinoid -- 10/31/2019 10:36:25 PM >

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Post #: 76

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 11/1/2019 9:44:59 AM

wadcorp

Posts: 9336
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ramwines

We're dining at home more these days and inviting friends and family in to enjoy some good wines. My objective is to get the total cellar down to a number that can all fit in my 3 Nfinity cellars before the temps rise in the spring.

Might actually be available to help you with Wine Tetris.

.

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Post #: 77

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 11/1/2019 12:08:07 PM

Chip Merlot

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Forgot all about this thread. I just returned from Las Vegas, where I met my brother in law for dinner at Prime (steakhouse at the Bellagio) one evening. Given the location and nature of the restaurant (his choice, not mine), I was expecting that they would be inserting a Hoover into my wallet for the wine, but I was pleasantly surprised by the markups. After some back-and-forth we landed on a 2015 Nickel & Nickel Suscol Ranch merlot for $108. Literally down the street, at the Total Wine store, that same label and vintage is marked at $63. That's way overpriced; according to wine searcher the national average is $58 and the low price (at one of my local stores, ironically) is $40. But even 2.7x the low is still reasonable, at least relative to some of the places mentioned earlier in this post.

So, I guess there's hope.

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Post #: 78

RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 11/2/2019 4:21:26 PM

jonathanknowles

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I'm not sure if there's a thread for this, but I think I have found a potential record lowest markup.

We paid €90 in a restaurant for this Accomasso Rocchette 2008. I would estimate you can't buy it for less than that retail.