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Things that make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 10:05:09 AM

Eric

Posts: 17314
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
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So in my end of year newsletter I made a point to say: http://www.cellartracker.com/newsletter/12-27-2011.htm

quote:

I am approached all the time by people who want to invest in the site, but frankly I am not remotely interested in that and have preferred to grow the site methodically, organically, at my own pace and under my full control.

For some reason this was interpreted by many as me playing "hard to get," as the number of approaches INCREASED after I published those words to hundreds of thousands of people.

So why am I so allergic to this topic? Let me give you two examples of formerly great sites, built by small teams, that people SIMPLY LOVE, LOVE, LOVED (past tense is deliberate) and then were acquired. Here are two tales of woe:

RecipeZaar: http://troyandgay.com/2009/01/23/almost-the-end-of-recipezaar/
Picnik: http://www.geekwire.com/2012/picnik-google-plans-shutter-popular-photo-editing-service

I understand that founders want to capitalize on time, money and energy. At the same time, what is the point of KILLING yourself to build something only to sell it and then see your baby killed or sucked of its life? Frankly I can think of no greater business crime. Some businesses are meant to be small and focused.

Goodness knows, I like money. Heck, after being victimized by Bernie Madoff, the last few years have been brutally difficult. Nonetheless, to me CellarTracker is sacred, a LIVING organism that is far, far greater than the sum of me, my code, a database etc. It needs to be thriving 50 years from now, a key and increasingly INTEGRATED part of the wine industry forever more.

P.S. Yes I do actually know there is also the concept of a minority investor, and the whole topic of investment is not brutally black and white. For now however I am treating this as a purely binary decision.
P.P.S. Does anyone else have other 'great' tales of woe of similarly great sites that were screwed up by selling out? I would love to build an ever growing list to serve as a reminder every day...

< Message edited by Eric -- 2/2/2012 12:58:48 PM >

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

Post #: 1

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 10:13:37 AM

Wine_Strategies

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Eric, you're a quality guy, who's built something of tremendous utility and value, on many levels. Youré in a special club, one that shrinks all the time, it seems.

A bit of a different spin, and one that makes my skin crawl is the story of Burt's Bees. Long story short, beekeeper picks up hitch-hiker. Gives hitch-hiker a job, place to stay. Hitch-hiker takes over beekeeper's business, pays him $100k, gets tens of millions for self. Is there a lot in the middle, sure, but the story is a constant reminder of the people that worship at the altar of the dollar, forsaking everything else, a la Bernie.

Curious timing, Zuckerberg, who was not willing to sell out, so to speak, will see his baby go public soon. Thanks again, Eric, for building this ship and keeping her in steady waters.

_____________________________

Tim

https://ItalianWine.Smugmug.com

https://www.italianwine.blog

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 2

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 10:16:28 AM

Eric

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Good for Zuck. That is a whole different level of enterprise. I just hope they "grow up" when it comes to privacy and transparency and that their shareholders help them recognize the long term value of that instead of just pushing them to monetize.

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to Wine_Strategies)

Post #: 3

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 10:58:30 AM

Wine_Strategies

Posts: 3833
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From: Castle Pines N., CO. or Italia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eric

Good for Zuck. That is a whole different level of enterprise. I just hope they "grow up" when it comes to privacy and transparency and that their shareholders help them recognize the long term value of that instead of just pushing them to monetize.

In precisely the same vein, good for you. I share your hope for FB, though I'm not a user for the very reasons you mention.

_____________________________

Tim

https://ItalianWine.Smugmug.com

https://www.italianwine.blog

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 4

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 11:54:44 AM

GalvezGuy

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From: Galveston, TX
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Eric

As a long time pro in the software biz, I have seen several organizations sell out, only to see their flagship product languish and become irrelevant. My hope is that you keep CT in its current ownership structure, maybe hiring on some coders at some point to speed up release cycles, but I want the force, passion, and vision of CT to remain solely yours with unfettered decision making.

Cheers,
David Welch

_____________________________

Burgundy makes you think of silly things; Bordeaux makes you talk about them; Champagne makes you do them.

(in reply to Wine_Strategies)

Post #: 5

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 11:57:40 AM

musedir

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Eric, as a not for profit manager, I recognize the real value of money in driving decisions, but I have seen some of my good friends and colleagues expand their institutions out of the noblest reasons and for what might have been all the right reasons, but sometimes the real magic has been lost in that growth. I, like so many other CTers, admire your commitment to your vision. And in the end, what is more important than being fully honest with yourself? Well, maybe being so honest with us.

We believe in your vision and respect your integrity, and just maybe that's why we kick the asses of quick wannabes who lurk and pounce.

_____________________________

"Fan the sinnking flame of hilarity with the wing of friendship; and pass the rosy wine." Charles Dickens.

(in reply to Wine_Strategies)

Post #: 6

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 12:14:05 PM

pbm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eric
I would love to build an ever growing list to serve as a reminder every day...

Just pin this thread to the top and we'll add to it as we come across them. It's in our collective best interest.

_____________________________

PBM
The Liver Is Evil It Must Be Punished

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 7

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 1:14:14 PM

recotte

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quote:

ORIGINAL: musedir

Eric, as a not for profit manager, I recognize the real value of money in driving decisions, but I have seen some of my good friends and colleagues expand their institutions out of the noblest reasons and for what might have been all the right reasons, but sometimes the real magic has been lost in that growth. I, like so many other CTers, admire your commitment to your vision. And in the end, what is more important than being fully honest with yourself? Well, maybe being so honest with us.

We believe in your vision and respect your integrity, and just maybe that's why we kick the asses of quick wannabes who lurk and pounce.

Amen

_____________________________

The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to musedir)

Post #: 8

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 2:34:54 PM

champagneinhand

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From: Upstate New York, California born.
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I started a not for profit that hooked up veterans from Vietnam, the Gulf war and Bosnia that could help guys coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan with PTSD and other things when transitioning from "Killing people and Breaking things" to getting back to living in a world where you could sleep comfortably in their own bed. At the same time we would train kids interested in joining the service with passing the ASVAB and completing High School with test taking skills. There were many other details, but trouble came when finances became more important than the original idea. A lot of it came from the Department of Defense through referral bonuses and the intent was to put money made towards vet programs and the God-awful veterans homes. It became a literal nightmare from internal pressure to drive the capitalist machine, yet as a veteran, I didn't want to put people into the service who really would fail at it. The recruiters pushed that and some commanders thought we should do it for free.

The point is that good intentions go go haywire as to many cooks get into the kitchen and you lose control of something that was very important to you in the first place. I couldn't make a buck from my idea and seeing things spin out of control, with massive external/internal pressure made me just put the whole thing on the back burner. Passion is great and when you love something and have your idea of how you want it to progress, then you need to go at your own pace and build it towards your specs.

Many awesome restaurants and small businesses have been destroyed by taking in outside money, which always come with strings. Some good examples lie in our politicians, judges, sport figures, but in the Movie "goodfellas", the tiki bar is one of the greatest examples. In others eyes you baby is like a machine that they can grind the most dollars out of it until it is obsolete. CT never needs to become obsolete.

_____________________________

As I age my finger tips seem to be bigger, my iOS keyboard seems to be less kind, and my need for wearing reading glasses has never been greater. I hope you are forgiving and can read between my lines.

(in reply to recotte)

Post #: 9

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 2:56:46 PM

BobMilton

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From: Newbury Park, CA
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It's not just websites thatget messed up by selling. I use to work (as a software engineer) in a small company that specialized in branch automation systems (we wrote the software that the tellers in your local branch office used). Real family type of place (when we had to work weekends, the President was there to provide moral support and lunch, even if he couldn't directly contribute). They go sold to a larger company that had such great policies as you had to fire 10% of your staff every year (even if there weren't 105 who were not pulling their weight). Two weeks after doing this, they HOSTED a bar party at the local Marriott that cost more than keeping one of the laid off people would have. They could not comprehend why we employees thought they were a bunch of jackasses (to put it politely). I finally decided retirement was preferable and left.

So, do what you feel necessary to keep Cellar Tracker going as it is now (with some improvements, of course).

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 10

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 3:09:51 PM

PSirah Tampa

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From: Tampa, FL
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Actually Eric you have a tremendous number of "investors" in Celler Tracker already- we invest with our time. As you mentioned on many occasions the purpose of this site is to provide a forum for sharing of uncompensated wine knowledge. Aside from the structure you've created the site is basically a collection facts and opinions from thousands of contribuitors. The type of organized insight available on Cellar Tracker can not be bought- only given with free will. If the site were to turn corporate I presume free knowledge would cease to flow.

We all appreciate the discipline you show by resisting the temptation to grab the gold while risking the integrity of the site. The world is full of good guys like you. Unfortunately greed corupts most of them when tempted. Thanks for letting us have our fun.

_____________________________

I just gotta drink'um faster!

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Post #: 11

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 6:40:03 PM

Eric

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PSirah Tampa, thank you for that. I agree completely. The only stakeholders I want are myself, my family and the incredible community of people using CellarTracker. The community is the true value, a living, breathing thing. And today the content is created by the community with the clear expectation that it will remain open to the community.

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to PSirah Tampa)

Post #: 12

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 7:30:14 PM

schwank

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From: Portlandia
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As someone who makes a living writing code and managing technology for highly data-driven web applications, I can understand both sides.

On one, given the current state of the universe, I could very easily see selling out on something I spent hard time developing and getting off the ground. But only if it meant I was set for life and would 100% walk away from it. I could not deal with taking money and then having to take marching orders from someone else on my baby. In my 15 year career (the tech bubble!) I have already seen that go wrong a couple of times. Neither company exists today.

The flip side is in the fact that you are doing something you love that keeps you involved with something that gives you (and others) daily joy, while paying you a meaningful return on your time investment. All leisure gets old after a while and frankly the folks I have met that have cashed out are honestly not great people to be around. Good on you for getting the best of both worlds... something you love to do that keeps you well fed and taken care of.

< Message edited by schwank -- 2/1/2012 7:32:10 PM >

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 13

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 7:56:40 PM

Beachrooster

Posts: 2334
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From: Huntington Beach, CA
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Eric, I'm sure you could sell this for a ton, but I love what you've built, maintained, and improved. Thank you, one of your loyal fans....

_____________________________

"I purchased them to make certain they were cared for properly.
You can't drink them, they're far to valuable.
I'd never sell them, they mean to much to me."
Rotten Scoundrel

(in reply to schwank)

Post #: 14

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 9:52:12 PM

pwm

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Joined: 5/1/2006
From: MI
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In 1988, my family decided to sell a business that my grandfather founded in 1929. No names.

We had a dozen plants and 1100 employees. We were one of 5 surviving companies of our kind out of 50 or more just a few decades previously, and likely the most respected - both for quality of product, and for our business practices.

None of the family in my generation were both qualified AND interested in in running the company. We were approached by a large company who wanted to get into our business, and had researched to find who was best.

They said that they wanted to buy our company because of how we did business, how we treated out customers, and how we treated our employees. (We had the lowest employee turnover in our industry by A FACTOR OF FOUR!) We had laid off only five employees in the history of the company, and they were returned to work within a few weeks. When business was slow, we put the employees (and senior management, middle management, and family members) to work improving the plant, refurbishing machinery, and generally getting ready for better times. This often gave us a year's head start when business picked up again. (We were in a VERY cyclic business. Part of a decade up, part of a decade down, time after time.)

After a lot of discussion and negotiation, we sold the company to them. They asked all the senior management to agree to remain with the company (anyone see anything missing here?). Within a year, the (public, not family) stockholders of the company that bought us threw out their Board of Directors, and replaced them with a slate that was focused on the next-quarter bottom-line. When business slacked off for a while, they told the management to lay off half the force. When the management (our old management) said that's not how we do things, they fired the management (now you see what we missed) and put in new managers who cheerfully laid off (permanently as it turned out) nearly half of the workforce, starting with the oldest (most seniority, most experienced, and thus highest paid) employees. A lot of these guys had been with the company for over 30 years.

Over the next few years, they f***ed over the suppliers, the customers, and even more of the employees, until the company went from having the best reputation in the industry to the worst. Then they closed all but two of the plants and sold most of the machinery. Last I heard they were down to under 80 employees. I believe the company (or at least the name) has been sold to a different company that seems to be trying to rebuild the reputation.

My family, and the people we negotiated with, had the company's and the employees' best interests in mind as we talked. To no avail; neither of us ultimately had any control over what eventually happened.

Now - - - ask me how I feel about selling any business that you care about.

(in reply to Beachrooster)

Post #: 15

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 10:40:40 PM

TobyAnscombe

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From: Essex, UK
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..and this on the same day that Facebook sets its IPO....

It makes me laugh!

Eric - you know how I feel and the rest of CT London (and probably the world) agree; We are your stakeholders, We are the people that appreciate the 'worth' of CT and we certainly appreciate the effort and gestation that you have given to CT.

Of course if you had sold out then we would have to kill you

(in reply to pwm)

Post #: 16

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/1/2012 10:45:41 PM

Eric

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From: Seattle, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TobyAnscombe
Of course if you had sold out then we would have to kill you

Death by espresso Martini is perhaps the most enjoyable end I could ever imagine. And by the way, if you have never met Toby, he is really big. And really scary. Do NOT mess with Toby!

Seriously. Thank you everyone. I really appreciate all of the reflections. You really have no idea what it means to me.

< Message edited by Eric -- 2/1/2012 10:46:44 PM >

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to TobyAnscombe)

Post #: 17

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/2/2012 12:07:41 AM

Colonel Lawrence

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From: Arabia
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Not all big companies are bad, and not all small ones good.
As long as you can keep CT going the way you want, keep interfering fingers away.
But don't limit your vision for the future - that should grow and grow.
And without being maudlin, none of us live forever, but CT can.
L.

In case anyone got confused I am personally absolutely delighted with how Eric handles CT right now.

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 18

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/2/2012 2:34:51 AM

pjaines

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Keep fighting the fight Eric. If you ever sold out there would be a mass uprising and the CT London crowd would be forced to send in Toby for a black-ops mission to "re-educate" you with Espresso Martini waterboarding techniques.

_____________________________

My new DJ stuff....

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 19

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/2/2012 5:38:50 AM

Paul S

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From: Singapore
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Good on your Eric - you're a real star!

(in reply to pjaines)

Post #: 20

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/2/2012 6:30:13 AM

ob2s

Posts: 1689
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From: SW Portland Ore
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eric

I understand that founders want to capitalize on time, money and energy. At the same time, what is the point of KILLING yourself to build something only to sell it and then see your baby killed or sucked of its life? Frankly I can think of no greater business crime. Some businesses are meant to be small and focused.

Well Eric, you certainly are an outlier and we all thank you for that. Maybe your need for CT as a source of cash flow is a factor too. By the way who can I talk to about investing in CT ?

_____________________________

German Wine ? see GermanWines.us | water nourishes the body, wine nourishes the soul

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 21

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/2/2012 7:19:46 AM

fingers

Posts: 8242
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From: Santa Ana, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colonel Lawrence

Not all big companies are bad, and not all small ones good.
As long as you can keep CT going the way you want, keep interfering fingers away.
But don't limit your vision for the future - that should grow and grow.
And without being maudlin, none of us live forever, but CT can.
L.

In case anyone got confused I am personally absolutely delighted with how Eric handles CT right now.

Hey, I know I give Eric a hard time about Beta, but I would never want CT in anyone else's hands.

My only wish for CT would be to give Eric a bunch of helpers to clean up and increase the accuracy of data in regards to wine info, prices, bottle sizes, dupes and errors, store name cleanup, etc. I think better data integrity would increase the value of the site for other users like industry researchers and provide deeply mined reports that perhaps Eric could sell to marketers, retailers, and winemakers to assist in their business efforts, too. If I owned a wine store, I would love to know what CT'ers have bought from my store and develop incentives around CT to get more customers. You could make shopping more interactive, for example, hand the the customer an ipad running CT and let them browse and research while going through the store. Maybe even offer free instruction on getting started with CT. There's plenty more ideas that can be tried with the current ownership model without selling to some conglomeration.

Best wishes always, Eric.. hip, hip, hooray

(in reply to Colonel Lawrence)

Post #: 22

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/2/2012 11:25:40 AM

kingkanu

Posts: 1200
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From: London
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It's really great, and fleshing in today's world to hear these sentiments from eric, and back from everyone here, CT truly is a special creation

(in reply to fingers)

Post #: 23

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/2/2012 11:36:38 AM

Ricardo

Posts: 662
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From: Ascot, UK
Status: offline

I love the simple trend of "Bottles tracked" in Eric's news letter...fron 350k to 7.7 million in 7 years.

It's a reflection of your success that you are being courted by others, a compliment that isn't afforded to many of us. This is of course the enterpreneur's dilemma, you are obviously not at all ready to call it a day and go chase a different dream.

And I'm very glad about that!

(in reply to kingkanu)

Post #: 24

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/2/2012 12:20:05 PM

dsGris

Posts: 4712
Joined: 8/31/2009
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

My only wish for CT would be to give Eric a bunch of helpers to clean up and increase the accuracy of data in regards to wine info, prices, bottle sizes, dupes and errors, store name cleanup, etc. I think better data integrity would increase the value of the site for other users like industry researchers and provide deeply mined reports that perhaps Eric could sell to marketers, retailers, and winemakers to assist in their business efforts, too. If I owned a wine store, I would love to know what CT'ers have bought from my store and develop incentives around CT to get more customers. You could make shopping more interactive, for example, hand the the customer an ipad running CT and let them browse and research while going through the store. Maybe even offer free instruction on getting started with CT. There's plenty more ideas that can be tried with the current ownership model without selling to some conglomeration.

That's what kids are for.

_____________________________

DennisG
Granpa Wino

(in reply to fingers)

Post #: 25

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/2/2012 12:57:55 PM

Eric

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From: Seattle, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I love the simple trend of "Bottles tracked" in Eric's news letter...fron 350k to 7.7 million in 7 years.

It's a reflection of your success that you are being courted by others, a compliment that isn't afforded to many of us. This is of course the enterpreneur's dilemma, you are obviously not at all ready to call it a day and go chase a different dream.

And I'm very glad about that!

If ANYONE ever catches me calling myself a "serial entrepreneur", please, immediately, send Toby and PJaines to kill me. Whenever I hear someone call themselves that, I wince a bit and think that title is just a lame excuse for being 'random' and having a short attention span. I vie wmyself as more of an accidental entrepreneur. I built CT, because I really needed it for MYSELF. And then it was a joy to discover that OTHER people needed it too, and that the collective wisdom of all of us could serve as a boon for anyone interested in wine.

I received an email last night from someone trying to rekindle a "conversation" about acquisition. I sent them a link to this thread and left it at that...

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to Ricardo)

Post #: 26

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/2/2012 1:04:16 PM

Wine_Strategies

Posts: 3833
Joined: 4/28/2009
From: Castle Pines N., CO. or Italia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eric

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I love the simple trend of "Bottles tracked" in Eric's news letter...fron 350k to 7.7 million in 7 years.

It's a reflection of your success that you are being courted by others, a compliment that isn't afforded to many of us. This is of course the enterpreneur's dilemma, you are obviously not at all ready to call it a day and go chase a different dream.

And I'm very glad about that!

If ANYONE ever catches me calling myself a "serial entrepreneur", please, immediately, send Toby and PJaines to kill me. Whenever I hear someone call themselves that, I wince a bit and think that title is just a lame excuse for being 'random' and having a short attention span. I vie wmyself as more of an accidental entrepreneur. I built CT, because I really needed it for MYSELF. And then it was a joy to discover that OTHER people needed it too, and that the collective wisdom of all of us could serve as a boon for anyone interested in wine.

I received an email last night from someone trying to rekindle a "conversation" about acquisition. I sent them a link to this thread and left it at that...

f'n brilliant!

_____________________________

Tim

https://ItalianWine.Smugmug.com

https://www.italianwine.blog

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 27

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/2/2012 1:14:44 PM

recotte

Posts: 6866
Joined: 1/19/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eric

If ANYONE ever catches me calling myself a "serial entrepreneur", please, immediately, send Toby and PJaines to kill me. Whenever I hear someone call themselves that, I wince a bit and think that title is just a lame excuse for being 'random' and having a short attention span. I vie wmyself as more of an accidental entrepreneur. I built CT, because I really needed it for MYSELF. And then it was a joy to discover that OTHER people needed it too, and that the collective wisdom of all of us could serve as a boon for anyone interested in wine.

I received an email last night from someone trying to rekindle a "conversation" about acquisition. I sent them a link to this thread and left it at that...

I don't think there's anything wrong with being a serial entrepreneur, per se. It's not everyone's path to have one passion or great idea to commit themselves to for the long term. That said, I'm glad that's not YOUR path, as we're all the beneficiaries of your ongoing commitment to CT.

I can imagine that this thread would be a strong deterrent to anyone who wanted to have that "conversation" with you. And if they don't get the hint, you can always send pjaines and Toby after them. I've heard they'll work for wine.

And, should you find the need to "monetize" the site, I suspect there are ways you could do so that you haven't tapped without resorting to selling an interest, whether it's using advertising (for non-donors only, of course

), or tapping into the value in the data that has been compiled.

_____________________________

The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 28

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/2/2012 1:31:22 PM

Ricardo

Posts: 662
Joined: 4/21/2007
From: Ascot, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: recotte
I don't think there's anything wrong with being a serial entrepreneur, per se. It's not everyone's path to have one passion or great idea to commit themselves to for the long term. That said, I'm glad that's not YOUR path, as we're all the beneficiaries of your ongoing commitment to CT.

Those were the two points I was trying to make, albeit less eloquently!

And you can't blame those guys tapping you up for trying!

(in reply to recotte)

Post #: 29

RE: Things at make my skin crawl... - 2/2/2012 1:47:05 PM

Eric

Posts: 17314
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

I don't blame people for showing an interest. I just don't want to waste their time and don't want them to waste mine.

And my somewhat derogatory comments on self professed serial entrepreneurs have more to do with ME and what motivates me to build technology (making an impact, building something lasting). I just can't be those other guys or gals, as it's not how I'm wired.

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-Eric LeVine

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(in reply to Ricardo)

Post #: 30