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Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/10/2008 3:47:18 AM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 10664
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: offline 		Yes, yes, yes - I know restaurants say they need to charge an arm and a leg on their wines to break even - blah blah blah.  However, the biggest piss take I have seen recently involved a restaurant in London that had bottles of Concha Y Toro Cab Sav Casillero del Diablo on the menu for 25 quid.  That is a markup of 500%

Worse thing is - this wine can be bought everwhere in the UK - I mean, you can buy it in gas stations, in supermarkets, in corner shops, children toy shops, everywhere.  So everyone knows this wine and knows how much it costs (4.99).  So if a restaurant was going to markup by 500% you would at least think they would choose a wine that no-one knows.

What a bunch of criminals.

I didn't order anything - I told the waiter that given the markup on their wine I hate to think what the quality of the food would be like and left.

Can anyone beat 500%?
 

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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/10/2008 3:54:16 AM   
Paul S

 

Posts: 3023
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: Singapore
Status: offline 		500% is nuts. I have had 400% and $50 corkage and decided to pay the corkage instead, but 500%!

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Post #: 2
RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/10/2008 3:56:20 AM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 10664
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: offline 		I guess they thought £25 for a bottle of wine in a restaurant is not bad - lets price it at that level.



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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/10/2008 10:11:39 AM   
grafstrb

 

Posts: 8834
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: LAla land
Status: offline 		I've been subjected to similar outrageousness ... at Bouchon in Las Vegas our server (pretending to be a sommelier) recommended a bottle of the 2004 Perrin and Fils Cotes du Rhone Villages (which I could, and had, found locally for $11) which was $55 on the list.  We had already told our server we wanted a wine that would pair well with everyone's food and that we were willing to spend approximately $100.  We ended up picking a Flowers Pinot Noir off the list ... the Flowers was great.  I was just blown away our server tried to push the cheapie with the high markup, even after us telling him we were willing to spend $100 (i think the Flowers was about $120).  The food was fantastic, by the way.  It was at that meal I was introduced to Barbancourt 15yr. Rhum ... ooooh yummy!

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Post #: 4
RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/10/2008 10:26:18 AM   
Blue Shorts

 

Posts: 2779
Joined: 2/5/2008
From: Santa Cruz
Status: offline 		I think that it's more likely that your server simply didn't know sh!t from shinola.  Even though the markup was greater on the rhone wine if you consider a percentage basis, the actual dollar markup was likely higher on the  $100 wine.

He didn't do you or the restaurant a favor.

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Post #: 5
RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/10/2008 10:35:49 AM   
J2K

 

Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/5/2008
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: offline 		I had a big mark down once at a local restaurant once.
I was perusing the wine list and noticed a Stags Leap Cab for $80. I knew this juice was a minimum $50 retail. The rest of the list had recognizable bottles with the standard 250% markup. So we ordered it and when I got home I checked and the retail was $65. Sweet.


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Post #: 6
RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/10/2008 10:53:20 AM   
Serge Birbrair

 

Posts: 4057
Joined: 4/23/2006
From: Boca Raton, Florida
Status: offline 		The rule of thumb is - the cheaper is the wine the bigger is %% mark-up

I paid $26 for a bottle of $7 wine at restaurant, 370% mark up but...
the wine was sooooo good I had to visit the winery which makes it and I glad we did!

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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/10/2008 11:06:33 AM   
RoundersRob

 

Posts: 1426
Joined: 7/1/2006
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Status: offline 		$80 for a $20 merlot.  That's $20 retail.   The restaurant probably pays the wholesale price.

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Post #: 8
RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/10/2008 11:41:24 AM   
J2K

 

Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/5/2008
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: offline 		Cab.
From what I have seen, the restaurant price is usually around 250%-300% of the retail price I have seen in stores.

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Post #: 9
RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/10/2008 11:55:54 AM   
mdf

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 9/6/2008
From: SF Bay Area
Status: offline 		A good friend of mine taught me to negotiate wine prices on the wine list, especially if I'm planning to drink a lot of wine. This doesn't always work, but if the the sommelier and the general manager understand you are going to spend some serious money on wine, and that you know what the wine really costs, then many times they will work with you. I've also negotiated free (and good) port and scotch after a meal this way. I don't recommend this for your $30 bottles of wine, however. Our best job negotiating was at Guy Savoy in Las Vegas, where we got 4 bottles of 1998 La Tache for $600/bottle. Not the greatest year, but still a great price (and it drank extremely well!)

As to markups, I agree that 500% is too much, especially on expensive wine, but if a restaurant uses good stemware, has a knowledgeable wine staff, and a good wine list, I think they are justified 2x to 3x markups: on inexpensive wines because there really is overhead (think of it as the $25 corkage fee on the $11 bottle of wine), and on expensive wines because there really are carrying costs.

That being said, more often than not these days I bring in my own wine, because even at some of the best restaurants (I live in the SF Bay area) you can't get older wines, or even if they have them they are $500 to $1000 per bottle or more. I simply don't want to spend that for a bottle of wine I paid $150 for (but I'm happy to pay a $50 corkage).

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Post #: 10
RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/10/2008 12:05:39 PM   
RoundersRob

 

Posts: 1426
Joined: 7/1/2006
From: Santa Cruz, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mdf

A good friend of mine taught me to negotiate wine prices on the wine list, especially if I'm planning to drink a lot of wine. This doesn't always work, but if the the sommelier and the general manager understand you are going to spend some serious money on wine, and that you know what the wine really costs, then many times they will work with you. I've also negotiated free (and good) port and scotch after a meal this way. I don't recommend this for your $30 bottles of wine, however. Our best job negotiating was at Guy Savoy in Las Vegas, where we got 4 bottles of 1998 La Tache for $600/bottle. Not the greatest year, but still a great price (and it drank extremely well!)

As to markups, I agree that 500% is too much, especially on expensive wine, but if a restaurant uses good stemware, has a knowledgeable wine staff, and a good wine list, I think they are justified 2x to 3x markups: on inexpensive wines because there really is overhead (think of it as the $25 corkage fee on the $11 bottle of wine), and on expensive wines because there really are carrying costs.

That being said, more often than not these days I bring in my own wine, because even at some of the best restaurants (I live in the SF Bay area) you can't get older wines, or even if they have them they are $500 to $1000 per bottle or more. I simply don't want to spend that for a bottle of wine I paid $150 for (but I'm happy to pay a $50 corkage).


I think that 98 La Tache would be too young to drink.  

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Post #: 11
RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/10/2008 12:05:53 PM   
Hollowine

 

Posts: 7251
Joined: 7/25/2008
From: Hood River, OR
Status: offline 		I'll second Ed's post and say its sometimes a fun game to try to negotiate a deal. We had a project celebration dinner a few years back and I scoped out the restaurant ahead of time and knew I wanted to order a bottle of Grange, so along with the Grange and a nice Cali Cab, I got the Som to throw in a couple lower priced bottles for free. This worked well because I didn't say anything about the wines QPR to the group and let them choose what they wanted to drink...the unaware thought the free wines were great, and I nursed half a bottle of Grange in quite happiness.

One other thing I try being a fan of Port is if they have multiple offerings on the list, I usually take dessert in the bar, and will ask the bartender to pour me three 1/3 servings so I can try them out and broaden my knowledge. Most of the time they will do so, and charge the median cost for the round. Frequently they end up pouring a little extra anyway since the glasses are small.

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Post #: 12
RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/11/2008 8:45:57 PM   
Uncle Noon

 

Posts: 273
Joined: 5/30/2008
Status: offline 		I hate the wine lists at the "chain" restaurants where they serve yellow tail and such for $7 to $12 a glass and good wine is non-existent.  I draw the line at paying for a glass what I can buy a bottle for.  I've found that the better the restaurant, the less the mark-up on good wine.

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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/12/2008 11:16:42 AM   
kelpcowboy

 

Posts: 454
Joined: 9/12/2008
From: Anacortes, WA
Status: offline 		Had dinner last month at a nice restaurant on the Oregon coast.  They had a wine list that was at least 2" thick.  Ordered a Quilceda Creek 02 Cab for $150.  Yes, $150.  I didn't say a word.

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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/12/2008 12:51:20 PM   
rjonas

 

Posts: 371
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From: Newcastle, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kelpcowboy

Had dinner last month at a nice restaurant on the Oregon coast.  They had a wine list that was at least 2" thick.  Ordered a Quilceda Creek 02 Cab for $150.  Yes, $150.  I didn't say a word.

Looks like you got a bargain!!  How was it?

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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 9/12/2008 1:10:55 PM   
jhannah27

 

Posts: 3169
Joined: 6/9/2008
From: Indianapolis, IN (via Orange County, CA)
Status: offline 		I have a buddy who is the general manager of a restaurant/bar.  Awhile ago, he asked me to attend this tasting event (wine, sake, and some miscellaneous liqueurs) being hosted by several of the distributors.  It was interesting because he wanted me to share my thoughts on the wine, but not from a stand-point of whether or not I like it or if I thought it was worth the money, but more-so whether I thought it would appeal to the largest audience, was the wine at a price point in which the "per-glass" prices would be reasonable for consumers and still make the restaurant money, as well as ensuring that the selections covered all the bases in terms of a wide selection of reds and whites, full to light bodied, fruity to earthy, etc.

His place is more of a nightclub-like atmosphere, so the wine selection at the event was not all that impressive, but none-the-less I was fascinated by the experience because normally when I taste it's all about me.  This was a completely different animal all together and it really helped me understand restaurant pricing a little better (not that I don't still think that they are bending us over in most cases ).



< Message edited by jhannah27 -- 9/12/2008 3:45:33 PM >

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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2010 9:34:58 AM   
wadcorp

 

Posts: 9336
Joined: 10/29/2008
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		I get insane over unreasonable mark-ups on wine.

One restaurant close to me is usually hitting a 300% mark-up above retail pricing, which I figure is robbery. I don't know how or why a restaurant can't live with a 2X price, and be happy they're making money.

I saw one bottle of 2006 Descendientes de José Palacios Bierzo Pétalos (Spain, Castilla y León, Bierzo) which I had bought in a store for $21.00 (average CT price is just over $20.00). This restaurant had it on their wine list at $60.00. Outrageous!

On our anniversary at the beginning of the month, I got us a bottle of 2005 El Molíno Pinot Noir (USA, California, Napa Valley, Rutherford) at $150.00 from the restaurant (a place that usually doesn't step on wines too much), only to find out when I'm logging it into CellarTracker! that it averages about $53.62 for a bottle. Grrrr!

Now, could I have gotten that latter bottle at a shop around town? Likely not. But I've a feeling I might soon be investing in an iPhone, just so I can look up some of my wine selections to make certain I'm not getting gouged too much.

Some local restaurants have created a "Wine Night" on either Sunday or Monday to drive up business. Most wines are available at 50% off, which many times will get prices down to something resembling normalcy. But I'm still going to boycott a restaurant that marks-up its wine to unreasonable levels

And yes, I tell them.

.

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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2010 9:51:53 AM   
Khamen

 

Posts: 5543
Joined: 3/31/2009
From: near Stonehenge, UK
Status: offline 		Biggest mark-up ever for me was about 350% for a Felton Road Pinot 2008 at Pont de La Tour with Toby and Rachel before Xmas (the Margaux 1983 was c. 200% mark-up)

Smallest mark-up was a rather remarkable 15% only for the Ausone 1998 at the Hotel du Vin at Gareth's Pembroke dinner in May.

K

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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2010 9:59:39 AM   
musedir

 

Posts: 23493
Joined: 2/25/2010
From: At 2534ft in Asheville near Royal Pines
Status: offline 		I have cellar tracker on my I-Phone and also wine searcher and I will not hesitate to look up retail at the table if I feel the price is way out of line. I tend to agree that 2x is fair and even 2.5x, but when it goes from 3x-5x, then its counterproductive in making long term relationships (which all of the restaurants want).

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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2010 10:10:18 AM   
cookiefiend

 

Posts: 4414
Joined: 1/7/2008
Status: offline 		The biggest for us was in Las Vegas at Joel Robuchon at the Mansion - $150.00 for Bruno Paillard Champagne NV. Available here for around $35.00, a 425% mark-up.

We almost left and probably would have if it were just the two of us... my husband was furious.

First time I've had only Champagne for an entire dinner. It worked but - wooo - we won't be going there in the future.

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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2010 10:12:58 AM   
bretrooks

 

Posts: 2870
Joined: 9/27/2009
From: San Luis Obispo, CA
Status: offline 		The end effect of big markups for me is that I rarely buy alcohol when I'm out. Spending $100 on a $30 bottle of wine isn't an option, so I'm more willing to pay corkage or stick to iced tea...or cook something at home and open whatever I feel like. Then again, I don't really go to restaurants with sommeliers or 2" thick wine lists either.

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Post #: 21
RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2010 11:37:13 AM   
RobRah

 

Posts: 825
Joined: 4/2/2009
From: London, UK
Status: offline 		I go frequently to a local (Persian) restaurant. They do great food and because of their religious beliefs they won't sell alcohol. So instead they invite you to bring your own, at zero cost. They even supply the glassware.

If they can afford to exist without relying on stupendous alcohol pruice markups.....

If a restaurant can't afford the wine it has on its wine list, they shouldn't buy it and expect us to pay for their mistake.

Rob.

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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2010 11:51:25 AM   
pbm

 

Posts: 2983
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: New Hope, Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		There's almost nothing that routinely gets me angrier at a restaurant than ridiculous wine prices. My SOP at this point is to either scout things out ahead of time or, if I'm there and not certain about the value, apologize and take out the iphone and start looking up prices if I'm with tolerant friends/family. My rule is nothing more than 300% because it's difficult to find places around here that are much less. That being said, 80% of the time we go BYOB. We're fortunate in our area to have a variety of very good options for that.  

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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2010 12:47:15 PM   
markandsusanw

 

Posts: 882
Joined: 5/10/2010
Status: offline 		I agree that more expensive wines tend to have smaller (but still outrageous) restaurant markups. The one that really got me was at a Morton's Dallas where they were listing Blackstone Merlot--a terrible, hideous drug store wine that retails for about $7/bottle and I sometimes use to cook with because it's so cheap and easy to find--for $60/bottle. I mean, c'mon. If *I* can get it for $7-8/bottle, retail, you know that Morton's, a large restaurant group, pays about $3.50 each.

My husband and I used to be able to limit our restaurant wine purchases to $50 and get a decent, if not outstanding, bottle. Lately it seems like you have to pay double that just to get anything drinkable. No wonder upscale restaurants are failing at alarming rates. For us, I'd rather stay home and drink the good stuff ... For 1/4 of the price.

By the way, we ended up with a bottle of Beringer Alluvium, which is a perfectly nice but not very special wine we occasionally drink at home ... for $21 a bottle. We paid $90. And, as it's a wine on their national wine list (all Morton's across the country), I'd be shocked if they paid even 75 percent of retail for it. I'd figure $12-$15, at most. So that's a, what, 600 percent mark-up? ... At best.


< Message edited by markandsusanw -- 6/21/2010 3:22:36 PM >

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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2010 12:57:06 PM   
mbannon

 

Posts: 499
Joined: 10/1/2004
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rjonas

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelpcowboy

Had dinner last month at a nice restaurant on the Oregon coast.  They had a wine list that was at least 2" thick.  Ordered a Quilceda Creek 02 Cab for $150.  Yes, $150.  I didn't say a word.

Looks like you got a bargain!!  How was it?

Forget *how* it was...*WHERE* was it??!  I'm headed to the coast this very weekend!


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RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2010 1:46:31 PM   
NiklasW

 

Posts: 2014
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mbannon

quote:

ORIGINAL: rjonas

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelpcowboy

Had dinner last month at a nice restaurant on the Oregon coast.  They had a wine list that was at least 2" thick.  Ordered a Quilceda Creek 02 Cab for $150.  Yes, $150.  I didn't say a word.

Looks like you got a bargain!!  How was it?

Forget *how* it was...*WHERE* was it??!  I'm headed to the coast this very weekend!


Funny how these old threads resurface every now and again. Check out the date of the QC post...they've probably learned of their mistake in the two years that have passed! Or maybe not.

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Post #: 26
RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2010 3:11:43 PM   
wallstreet

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/27/2008
From: Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: grafstrb

I've been subjected to similar outrageousness ... at Bouchon in Las Vegas our server (pretending to be a sommelier) recommended a bottle of the 2004 Perrin and Fils Cotes du Rhone Villages (which I could, and had, found locally for $11) which was $55 on the list.  We had already told our server we wanted a wine that would pair well with everyone's food and that we were willing to spend approximately $100.  We ended up picking a Flowers Pinot Noir off the list ... the Flowers was great.  I was just blown away our server tried to push the cheapie with the high markup, even after us telling him we were willing to spend $100 (i think the Flowers was about $120).  The food was fantastic, by the way.  It was at that meal I was introduced to Barbancourt 15yr. Rhum ... ooooh yummy!


Thats rather strange. I have eaten at Bouchon in Vegas and thought it average at best! I wasn't very impressed and I was there twice.  Different strokes I guess.

My biggest rip off was also in Vegas, I took two clients to dinner at Cafe Martaranno at the Rio.........first, don't go, AVERAGE Italian food at best and its your garden variety kind.  No where near the same quality or menu as the original in Ft Laud. Fl.

All the wines were outrageous, but I was at a business dinner, I swallowed it and paid $220 for Argiano 2002 , a crap year for Brunello's and a $30 bottle for $220. Needless to say, when the waiter asked me how everything was....I paused and quietly told him that his restaurant sucked.......... The manager came over and asked if he could do anything, I say yeah, why not charge me retail for this overpriced grape juice that really sucks too.......  He offered me a $50 gift card to come back. I told him to keep it, I would never come back again under any circumstance. My client ate a NY Strip with something resembling a brown sauce........price  $67 !!!   My other client ordered a veal parm. (why in hell would you order something like that at a supposed gourmet Italian Rest.  price..... $42

My pasta dish was actually pretty good and a relative bargain at $28.

When I left , I checked my ass to see if I got gang raped.............  just a bad experience overall and the wine price just added to the insult. If I wasn't there on business, I would have ordered a martini or a beer.

The Flowers Pinot would have been head and shoulders better...........at half the price (if it were available!).

sorry for the rant, I need to get this off my chest at least once a year, I am still pissed (This happened in 2009).



< Message edited by wallstreet -- 6/21/2010 3:13:21 PM >

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Post #: 27
RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2010 3:17:15 PM   
mbannon

 

Posts: 499
Joined: 10/1/2004
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:


Funny how these old threads resurface every now and again. Check out the date of the QC post...



D'oh!  I hate that.  My bad.

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Post #: 28
RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2010 3:40:18 PM   
pjaines

 

Posts: 10664
Joined: 5/26/2008
From: London
Status: offline 		Nice to see old threads pop up - jeez, I apparently I even started it and now I remember the restaurant that screwed me over (or tried to) on the cheap plonk.

I rarely eat out these days because

a) I prefer to cook with the missus at home
b) I refuse to pay 300% markup

and most important

c) I have three kids and the thought of going out for a meal is a dream we cannot even comprehend.  The solution is to invite Toby round and he entertains the kids while I eat in peace and quiet with the wife

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Post #: 29
RE: Biggest mark up in a restaurant - 6/21/2010 4:33:41 PM   
wadcorp

 

Posts: 9336
Joined: 10/29/2008
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pbm

That being said, 80% of the time we go BYOB.


You're lucky to still have that option in your area. Missouri outlawed BYOB across the state.

We'll take a bottle over to Kansas restaurants (as Hollowine & rwilk_2000 will attest), so my state doesn't get the tax income, either.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NiklasW

Funny how these old threads resurface every now and again.


Well, this is still an issue that sticks in my craw. I knew we'd touched on the subject before, and I didn't want to start yet another new thread on the same subject. Just a little Search & voila!

Plus, there are new Forum members who would no doubt pipe up about insane mark-ups on wine they've been faced with.



quote:

ORIGINAL: wallstreet

I took two clients to dinner at Cafe Martaranno at the Rio…


I swear I've been there, and also unimpressed. Dinner while staying at the Rio in 2003. Was that restaurant there then?

.

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