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Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/25/2017 11:43:52 AM   
KPB

 

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I was thinking that in 2018 or 2019, I might do a side by side tasting of Bond Vecina and Vine Hill Ranch VHR, which is from the identical vineyards and to my taste can definitely outperform its much more famous cousin.

Another example is MacDonald, which is from the same vineyard that sources the fruit for Mondavi reserve. I’ve always liked the Mondavi, which is also one of the few Napa wines you can reliably find in Europe. But MacDonald makes a better wine. In this case it may be a function of harvest policy: Mondavi seems to prefer that the grapes be harvested a bit early, and the wine tends to be leaner and more structured, maybe even a bit too structured and lean. The MacDonald wines I’ve tried have been fairly rich and riper. (Similar price point, if you can get the MacDonald wine directly off the mailing list, but MacDonald runs more like $450 on the secondary market)

So this had me thinking: how many examples can people come up with of a very famous wine sourced from a vineyard that also produces an equally exciting wine of its own? Not a second wine, but a legitimate first-class wine that isn’t as known, but in a qualitative sense, could win a comparison.

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/25/2017 12:40:45 PM   
CranBurgundy

 

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Will any single vineyard have more producers offering wine from it than Clos de la Roche?

While Ponsot owns 3 of the 4 original acres, there are now 13.5 acres in the vineyard with more than a dozen producers and negociants (or more for all I know) offering Grand Cru Burgundy from Clos de la Roche.

< Message edited by CranBurgundy -- 12/25/2017 7:47:31 PM >


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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/25/2017 12:43:10 PM   
midpalate

 

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I'm pretty sure Vougeot and Chambertin have more producers than CdR, but I'm not certain.

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/25/2017 12:47:05 PM   
CranBurgundy

 

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On the domestic / US side of the equation, there are plenty of excellent wines made from the same vineyards. Hobbs and Schrader make a pretty good To-Kalon also Ken.

Fruit from lesser known vineyards like Baconbrook is used by several names people here would know.

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/25/2017 1:04:41 PM   
jmcmchi

 

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Clos de Vougeot has more than 80 growers

In Burgundy generally a monopole of a single vineyard is noteworthy

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/25/2017 1:19:31 PM   
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Sort of answering the original question, sort of, you can pick up wine from Barossa vineyard(s) whose grapes are used in Grange although since it is a blend the information is little practical value except in the given year

Similarly in Washington, several winemakers use grapes from some of the vineyards used in Quilceda Creek, although recently they (QC) are moving more towards the monopole model

< Message edited by jmcmchi -- 12/25/2017 1:21:36 PM >

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/25/2017 3:00:29 PM   
S1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmcmchi

Clos de Vougeot has more than 80 growers

In Burgundy generally a monopole of a single vineyard is noteworthy

This, lots of Burgs fit the bill
In the new world, almost anything with “_______ vineyard” on the label.

Lewelling/Hayfork

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/25/2017 7:26:30 PM   
Slye

 

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Perhaps less along the lines of a lesser wine comparison, you can definitely do a pretty deep horizontal tasting of different wines made from wines from the same vineyard in WA state. The price points might differ, which might approximate a first and second wine type comparison. Perhaps the Seattle wine group will do a version of this in an upcoming tasting. We did do a first and second wine, but that was focused on winemakers and not vineyards.

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/25/2017 11:50:04 PM   
penguinoid

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: S1
In the new world, almost anything with “_______ vineyard” on the label.


This isn't a given in Australia -- lots of wines here called (something) vineyard where the winery is the only one to produce wine from that vineyard.

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/26/2017 9:30:36 AM   
KPB

 

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This are interesting examples, but some of them drift from my OP. For example, if we look at Clos de la Roche, every single wine from that vineyard costs a fortune. I guess I was asking whether the famous wines from some vineyards have less famous cousins that are (1) cheaper, (2) much less famous, yet (3) equally good or perhaps even better.

So sure, lots of vineyards yield tons of wines. But parcels vary, and mostly pricing is tied to the name of the vineyard, so more often you see stories exactly like Clos de la Roche.

A further distinction relative to the OP is that I gave two examples of vineyards actually farmed by some single grower, but then where the fruit splits into fruit going to one producer and fruit staying home and turned into wine by the grower. The responses mostly pointed to "lieu dit" parcels, where ownership and farming is by different people, who manage their own individual vines. Quite a different pattern...

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/26/2017 11:12:17 AM   
CranBurgundy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

This are interesting examples, but some of them drift from my OP. For example, if we look at Clos de la Roche, every single wine from that vineyard costs a fortune. I guess I was asking whether the famous wines from some vineyards have less famous cousins that are (1) cheaper, (2) much less famous, yet (3) equally good or perhaps even better.


Nicolas Potel offers a wine from Clos de la Roche. Obviously, he doesn't own any land there, so it's a negociant bottling. It's usually much less expensive than the more renown houses' offerings, and sometimes downright cheap in comparison. I've had it from several different vintages and always found it to be very nice at the least, or better.

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/26/2017 11:39:14 AM   
KPB

 

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Ah. So this is a fit to my question -- I'll track it down and try it! I don't know Potel's wines, but I do have a few wines from Clos de la Roche, and like them very much - except for the price point, which is sky high!

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/26/2017 11:42:46 AM   
CranBurgundy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

Ah. So this is a fit to my question -- I'll track it down and try it! I don't know Potel's wines, but I do have a few wines from Clos de la Roche, and like them very much - except for the price point, which is sky high!


Ben at CellaRaiders (a short overnight ride for shipping) has a bottle of 2007. That should be open for business now, or at least close.

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/26/2017 2:58:43 PM   
PinotPhile

 

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Would Bien Nacido vineyard be one to consider? A quick look at the top producers within CT revealed:


Ojai 10.7% Bottles (3,441)
Foxen 10.5% Bottles (3,363)
Qupé 9.1% Bottles (2,920)
Jaffurs 5.3% Bottles (1,716)
Paul Lato 4.7% Bottles (1,514)
Twomey 4.3% Bottles (1,383)
Herman Story 3.8% Bottles (1,226)
Tyler 3.2% Bottles (1,034)
Chanin 3.2% Bottles (1,023)
Gary Farrell 2.5% Bottles (802)
Fess Parker 2.3% Bottles (730)

Don't know if this is exactly what you are seeking, but it was the first big vineyard that came to mind.

Cheers!

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/26/2017 3:13:06 PM   
S1

 

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^
good one.

Off the top of my head,

Bedrock
James Berry
Carlisle
Griffin's Lair
Shea
Bjornson
Halcon
GIII
Dr. Crane
Booker

Too many to count in Burgundy--heck, almost too many to count just in Chablis.

I'm sure winestrategies could rattle off a great Italy list.

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/26/2017 3:16:18 PM   
oskiwawa

 

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Charles Heintz Vineyard is another example





quote:

ORIGINAL: S1

^
good one.

Off the top of my head,

Bedrock
James Berry
Carlisle
Griffin's Lair
Shea
Bjornson
Halcon
GIII
Dr. Crane
Booker

Too many to count in Burgundy--heck, almost too many to count just in Chablis.

I'm sure winestrategies could rattle off a great Italy list.


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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/26/2017 4:00:01 PM   
Eddie

 

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I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Petalos or Chapoutier.

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/26/2017 4:13:42 PM   
KPB

 

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I agree about Chapoutier. For me, his Cote Rotie and Hermitage wines are often as good as Chave’s. Yet Chave pricing is through the roof and Chapoutier remains relatively affordable. Not sure if the vineyards are identical, but a good example even so,

Never heard of Petalos!

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/26/2017 4:20:23 PM   
KPB

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CranBurgundy


quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

Ah. So this is a fit to my question -- I'll track it down and try it! I don't know Potel's wines, but I do have a few wines from Clos de la Roche, and like them very much - except for the price point, which is sky high!


Ben at CellaRaiders (a short overnight ride for shipping) has a bottle of 2007. That should be open for business now, or at least close.


Bought it. Thanks!

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/26/2017 4:35:26 PM   
Eddie

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

I agree about Chapoutier. For me, his Cote Rotie and Hermitage wines are often as good as Chave’s. Yet Chave pricing is through the roof and Chapoutier remains relatively affordable. Not sure if the vineyards are identical, but a good example even so,

Never heard of Petalos!


Sorry, I meant Palacios. Petalos is a wine made by Palacios.

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/26/2017 4:43:26 PM   
KPB

 

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Agreed, Palacios makes some very good wines. But are some of them from the same grapes that supply l’Ermita or Vega Scilia or some other heavyweight player we would have to spend $1000 to try?

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/26/2017 7:01:04 PM   
PinotPhile

 

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I hope that winestrategies or someone else chimes in w/that great Italy list. One of my key countries for cellar strategy.

Cin Cin!

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/26/2017 7:57:58 PM   
CranBurgundy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB


quote:

ORIGINAL: CranBurgundy


quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

Ah. So this is a fit to my question -- I'll track it down and try it! I don't know Potel's wines, but I do have a few wines from Clos de la Roche, and like them very much - except for the price point, which is sky high!


Ben at CellaRaiders (a short overnight ride for shipping) has a bottle of 2007. That should be open for business now, or at least close.


Bought it. Thanks!


You won't be disappointed. I think I have one more bottle of the '97, of which I bought 3 from Ben a few years ago (at $12x per 750ml bottle IIRC).

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 12/27/2017 1:13:17 PM   
WineGuyDelMar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PinotPhile

Would Bien Nacido vineyard be one to consider? A quick look at the top producers within CT revealed:


Ojai 10.7% Bottles (3,441)
Foxen 10.5% Bottles (3,363)
Qupé 9.1% Bottles (2,920)
Jaffurs 5.3% Bottles (1,716)
Paul Lato 4.7% Bottles (1,514)
Twomey 4.3% Bottles (1,383)
Herman Story 3.8% Bottles (1,226)
Tyler 3.2% Bottles (1,034)
Chanin 3.2% Bottles (1,023)
Gary Farrell 2.5% Bottles (802)
Fess Parker 2.3% Bottles (730)

Don't know if this is exactly what you are seeking, but it was the first big vineyard that came to mind.

Cheers!


There are others too:

Kynsi
Hitchng Post
SQN
Jonata Stephen Ross
Au Bon Climat
Piedrasassi
Bergstrom
Rusack
Clos Solene
Sandhi
Sandler

Kynsi makes a decent single vineyard Bien Nacido PN. All of the names above source fruit from Bien Nacido but may not make a single vineyard wine out of it. Don't know for sure.

Rick

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 1/2/2018 12:05:16 PM   
lockestep

 

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From WA you could do Ciel du Cheval. Off the top of my head, Force Majeure, Andrew Will, Cadence, Seven Hills and Tamarack all do Bordeaux blends from there. Not a huge spread in price though with the Andrew Will and Force Majeure mid-60ish and the Cadence just under 50.

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 1/2/2018 12:50:17 PM   
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I don't know about famous, but our own CT Barrel Project Syrah from SJR Vineyard is about 1/3 less than Delmas Syrah, also from SJR and produced by Rasa.

ben

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 1/2/2018 2:23:25 PM   
KPB

 

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Perhaps this will be my project for 2018!

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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 1/2/2018 2:52:16 PM   
dbg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB
A further distinction relative to the OP is that I gave two examples of vineyards actually farmed by some single grower, but then where the fruit splits into fruit going to one producer and fruit staying home and turned into wine by the grower. The responses mostly pointed to "lieu dit" parcels, where ownership and farming is by different people, who manage their own individual vines. Quite a different pattern...


I don’t know how it works with Bond vs VHR, but I think that the grapes that go into McDonald are farmed differently than those that go into Mondavi Reserve even if they’re all To-Kalon fruit.

In named vineyards where the grapes go to different wineries, the winemakers may have different instructions for the vineyard manager regarding canopy management or ripeness levels/picking timing. Then of course what the winemakers do with the fruit can vary. So there are a lot of potential variables. I’d say compiling a list and comparing them would make for a fun and excellent project.

< Message edited by dbg -- 1/2/2018 2:53:01 PM >


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RE: Famous wines with less known cousins - 1/2/2018 4:23:21 PM   
KPB

 

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@dbg, I believe this is very common -- each winery has a vineyard manager, and that person would want to control most decisions. Still, the soil is the same, and of course vinification will differ in any case. So to me these vineyard decisions are part of the winemaking process, and that's going to be unique. In fact that's the fun question: tasting two such wines side by side is simultaneously a way to find commonality and also differences!

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