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ORIGINAL: CranBurgundy

Did somebody say Moulin Touchais? I've got '81, '82, '85, and '96 in a Danby waiting for this pandemess to be done so we could have it at an offline. Brian - ever plan on coming back to Philly? We had fun the last time you were here. It was you who brought the Three Kings, correct?

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ORIGINAL: Eddie

I know nothing about the more recent vintages. How were 2018 and 2019?

The "Jim's Loire" blog would probably have answers, but his stuff is so detailed and focused it might take hours of reading to discover a broad answer.

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ORIGINAL: Tannic Monster

Chenin Blanc from the Loire Valley makes some of the best dessert wines on the planet. I absolutely love Domaine Des Baumard Quarts De Chaume. Just had a 2005 the other night and it was heavenly. It is about $35 for a .375 giving it fantastic QPR. Everyone needs to try one of these whatever vintage you can find.

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ORIGINAL: sastewart

Agreed, for Loire Chenin you might also look at the entire range of Huet. They produce a full range of chenin based wines from sparkling (Petillant) through dessert from 3 distinct vineyards.

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ORIGINAL: jmcmchi

QdC lasts and lasts. Consider also Huet for the full range of sweetness to dry

At the value end of the spectrum, M.A.N. Family chenin (Steen in SAfrica) is widely available at less than $10, consistently outperforming.

From the US, Wa is just starting to produce some interesting small quantities so probably not widely available. Dry Creek occasionally produces a nice one in Ca at a fair price

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ORIGINAL: CranBurgundy

Besides Huet and Baumard Quarts De Chaume, I'd also recommend looking at J.C. Pichot. Their les Larmes de Bacchus is my favorite dessert Vouvray, and their le Peu de la Moriette is one of the best values in off-dry / demi-sec Vouvray you'll find.

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ORIGINAL: Echinosum
The main areas for CB are the western Loire and South Africa.

For dry whites, South Africa is where you'll find the best value. Look for wines from old bushvines. Also doesn't need as long aging as the Loire version, though it certainly ages well, if you get ones that are sufficiently good. But, for me, more interesting still are their CB-based blends, where they put all sorts of stuff in. Roussanne, the top Rhone variety, is a common and excellent addition, as Rhone varieties do very well in South Africa. But you'll see semillon, grenache blanc, chardonnay, verdelho, viognier, sauvignon blanc, all sorts of stuff, often several of them. Results in diverse and interesting drinking.

Like Tannic Monster, I was first entranced by sweet Loire CB. But there's only so much sweet wine you can drink, and I slowly graduated to the drier styles. Also the sweet ones benefit from very long aging, which means you buy and have to wait a long time. So I also lost patience. But to avoid the wait, a useful producer is Moulin Touchais, who doesn't release wines until they are ready to drink. This can be 25 years after the vintage. And remarkably good value. But quality dry Loire does generally benefit from several years aging, I usually won't open until at least 7, and has the potential to last on the same timescale as riesling.

Recommending Huet isn't far removed from saying "Latour is a reliable producer in Bordeaux". There are many other good growers. Jacky Blot is the leading grower in Montlouis, which is a bit less fashionable, and also relatively new on the scene, so prices are rather lower. He also makes top quality Vouvray, which is just the other side of the river. But because his chai is in Montlouis, so absurdly restrictive are the local rules that he has to label it vin de table. That's like telling Comte Lafon that his Volnay has to be called vdt because his chai is in Meursault. Savennieres is another absolute top appelation for dry CB, and worth exploring, though top ones are quite expensive.

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ORIGINAL: grafstrb
Hi Ben,

Taking each in turn ...

Sparkling: I've never had an amazing sparkling Chenin, and I don't know anyone who has. Huet's sparkler is the "best" I've tried, and it struck me as "fine" --- basically a really nice $18 - $25 sparkler that I might be able to find at the grocery store --- but I thought it overpriced. I've had moderate success buying random "sparkling Vouvrays" in the $20 - $25 price range: if you choose to do that, just understand you're getting a very nice/usable example appropriate for its price range. There will be some duds. Overall, I don't buy in this category.

Sweet: I don't truly like the flavor profile of sweet Chenin*, so I'm the wrong guy to ask here.
* perhaps this a little bit of a lie because I've actually had many that I like; more accurately, it's not among my preferred sweet wines.

Dry: This is where Chenin can be crazy-good. A quick word about my personal preferences, which necessarily influences my opinions: I like dry, acidic, fruity wines with mineral aspects.


Old World v. New World:
For my preferences, Old World all the way, with the occasional surprise elsewhere. New World examples have generally been too fruity or alcoholic, and sometimes a bit sweet. Old World examples tend to be leaner, more focused, and much easier to drink.


Aged vs. Not Aged:
Haven't really figured that out yet. I've bought a fair amount over the past couple years in an effort to put some age on a few. They are so incredibly delicious young, however, that I find it difficult to keep my hands off them.

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ORIGINAL: sastewart

I think that Chenin from Vouvray in general ages very slowly. Here are a couple of notes from a weekend with friends in 2019.

2003 Foreau Domaine du Clos Naudin Vouvray Moelleux
Pear, nice minerality and a touch of quince on the nose. Full bodied, with ripe stone fruits. This is surprisingly light on its feet and nicely balanced for a 2003. Purchased at the winery and cellared at 55. This wine still has plenty of time. Solid 92 points

2005 Domaine Huet Vouvray Sec Le Haut-Lieu
Beautiful wine. Served blind others thought much younger than 14 years. Pretty nose with nice minerality and white fruits and maybe just a touch of honey. Early maturity 92 points

We have also had quite a few Baumard including Savennieres, Coteaux du Layon, and Quarts de Chaume which I think are good but a level below Huet. I have less experience with Coulée de Serrant but I must say the bottles I've had from Nicolas Joly have been fantastic!

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ORIGINAL: Slye

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ORIGINAL: grafstrb

2015 Domaine du Collier Saumur Blanc - France, Loire Valley, Anjou-Saumur, Saumur (1/3/2021)
-- popped and poured --
-- tasted non-blind over 2 to 3 hours --

NOSE: fresh lily; honey; candle wax; strong honey note; medium-light apple aspect.

BODY: medium golden yellow color; medium bodied.

TASTE: medium+ to high acidity; tastes a lot like Arcadian's Sleepy Hollow Chardonnay (and, in fact, that is *exactly* what Ashley guessed when I gave this to her blind) -- it is a bit less rich, perhaps, than the Arcadian Chard; quite ripe; kiss of oak (a pretty big kiss, really); hint of hay on the finish; a bit creamy/lactic; 13% alc. is well-hidden. This was more ponderous than I was expecting, given the vintage and the producer's reputation. Very nice, but I'm on the fence about it being worth the money.

50, 5, 12, 16, 8 = (91 pts.)

Oh yes -- I have some of the 2014 of this -- I think initially as part of a CT secret santa gift a few years ago. Really fantastic. And I have three sleeping.

Here is my most recent note on it: 93 Points
This is such a lovely wine. Wonderful tropical fruits. Some lanolin this time which I don’t think I noticed last time. Lovely zippy acidity. And it all holds together so nicely. I need to keep my hands off the others for a while to see where this goes. Lots of life still here. Such a great find from my 2018 CT Secret Santa.

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ORIGINAL: ChrisinCowiche

One of the issues w/ Washington is that this is seen as a rather obscure variety and very few vineyards grow it, I think I read down to less than 20 acres in production. One of vineyards Orr used, Rothrock, ripped out their Chenin block. It had also been source for a Full Pull Block Wines Chenin I sucked down in short order a while ago.

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ORIGINAL: penguinoid

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ORIGINAL: ChrisinCowiche

One of the issues w/ Washington is that this is seen as a rather obscure variety and very few vineyards grow it, I think I read down to less than 20 acres in production. One of vineyards Orr used, Rothrock, ripped out their Chenin block. It had also been source for a Full Pull Block Wines Chenin I sucked down in short order a while ago.

From what I've read it's a difficult grape to produce, viticulturally speaking — it tends to ripen very unevenly. Most good Loire producers will harvest in tries, selecting the bunches or berries that are at the desired ripeness level. I guess producers may not want to put in the effort required if it doesn't sell well — and it's not exactly a well known grape

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ORIGINAL: Tricky99

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ORIGINAL: CranBurgundy

Did somebody say Moulin Touchais? I've got '81, '82, '85, and '96 in a Danby waiting for this pandemess to be done so we could have it at an offline. Brian - ever plan on coming back to Philly? We had fun the last time you were here. It was you who brought the Three Kings, correct?

Some good choices there - my personal picks would be the ‘85 & ‘96. Enjoy.

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ORIGINAL: Eddie

A few years back a local store here had a whole bin of 2006 Quarts de Chaume on bin-end for about $22. I bought a couple. I tried one and was underwhelmed as it seemed to lack acidity and was thus a bit flabby. However, after doing some research, I decided I had consumed it too early. I've got to figure out where that other bottle is....we're having some friends over for a Loire tasting this weekend.

Edit: I just realized I gave it away as a gift in 2019.

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ORIGINAL: ROEL

Funny how Moulin Touchais keeps popping up in this thread.
Moulin Touchais was actually my first encounter with Chenin Blanc. This must have been in 1988 or 1989, jut after I got my first job. I found a couple of bottles at a local retailer. They stood out a bit because they usually sold the generic stuff and this also had a lot more age on it. If I recall correctly I bought a bottle of 1969, 1971 and 1976. They really impressed me but somehow I didn't cross paths with Moulin Touchais again after that, until I found some 2005 not long ago. Will have to keep my hands off those for a couple of years...

In a completely different style (CB is very versatile after all), but also impressive was a bottle of Fabien Jouves (Mas del Périé), Les Pièces Longues I had recently. A Vin de France from Cahors of all places (CB is not allowed under the AOC regulation)

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ORIGINAL: CranBurgundy

Did somebody say Moulin Touchais? I've got '81, '82, '85, and '96 in a Danby waiting for this pandemess to be done so we could have it at an offline. Brian - ever plan on coming back to Philly? We had fun the last time you were here. It was you who brought the Three Kings, correct?

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ORIGINAL: grafstrb

quote:

ORIGINAL: CranBurgundy

Did somebody say Moulin Touchais? I've got '81, '82, '85, and '96 in a Danby waiting for this pandemess to be done so we could have it at an offline. Brian - ever plan on coming back to Philly? We had fun the last time you were here. It was you who brought the Three Kings, correct?

O.K., so I gave this 22 hours of me looking over each of my shoulders behind me, and nobody else has spoken, so I'll assume you were talking to me. As it is, I've never been to Philly (although I would *love* to change that!), so you must be remembering someone else. :)

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ORIGINAL: grafstrb

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ORIGINAL: Tricky99

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ORIGINAL: CranBurgundy

Did somebody say Moulin Touchais? I've got '81, '82, '85, and '96 in a Danby waiting for this pandemess to be done so we could have it at an offline. Brian - ever plan on coming back to Philly? We had fun the last time you were here. It was you who brought the Three Kings, correct?

Some good choices there - my personal picks would be the ‘85 & ‘96. Enjoy.

Glad to see you pick the '96; I have one in my cellar, and the only time I had it (in 2013) it came across as incredibly dumb/closed/tight. It's so weird --- with Moulin Touchais, I have a 24 yo bottle of white, and never think about opening it for fear of it being too young. Other than Riesling, I can't say I have that experience with any other white wine.

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ORIGINAL: ChrisinCowiche

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ORIGINAL: penguinoid

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ORIGINAL: ChrisinCowiche

One of the issues w/ Washington is that this is seen as a rather obscure variety and very few vineyards grow it, I think I read down to less than 20 acres in production. One of vineyards Orr used, Rothrock, ripped out their Chenin block. It had also been source for a Full Pull Block Wines Chenin I sucked down in short order a while ago.

From what I've read it's a difficult grape to produce, viticulturally speaking — it tends to ripen very unevenly. Most good Loire producers will harvest in tries, selecting the bunches or berries that are at the desired ripeness level. I guess producers may not want to put in the effort required if it doesn't sell well — and it's not exactly a well known grape

This is interesting, and makes sense with respect to why growers would not want to mess with it. They likely can't charge more for the grapes, vs. other white varieties, and picking 2-3 times on same rows is expensive. If it is dictated by the winery, they might absorb that cost, but you'd see it in the wine price.

Make me shy away from planting myself, and when I checked the other day, no rootstock in inventory currently anyway.

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ORIGINAL: bretrooks

Another late reply here, but I count myself as a fan of chenin blanc, even though I don't drink it very regularly. A few somewhat disconnected notes while I'm on a break at work:

I've enjoyed dry ones younger and off-dry ones with just a little bit of age. I haven't tried anything at the Moelleux level of sweetness, but I've liked the few bottles of Coteaux du Layon/Quarts de Chaume I've tried (although, as with Sauternes, I don't feel the joy when acidity is too low). I've enjoyed a few from the US (Qupé, Roark, Chalone) and a few lower-end versions from South Africa as well.

The few Huets I've tried have been good, but not a step up over other quality producers such as Chidaine, for my palate. Vigneau-Chevreau is one of the last I had - I opened a Silex Sec 2018 late last fall and thought it was solid.

I've had one lower-level Joly and two Bellivière Jasnières, all in varying levels of an oxidized style (two of these were at Passionfish). These struck me as odd for enjoyment on their own, but the Joly, particularly, was memorable for how it paired with every dish we threw at it...a wow experience for me.

I did pick up Beau Rivage and Orr on BerserkerDay, and I'm looking forward to trying those.

Overall, my very favorites have had firm acidity, haven't been too lean, and have generally been juuuust off-dry.

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ORIGINAL: grafstrb

Chenin from Cahors?!? Wow. What was it like?

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ORIGINAL: penguinoid
I'd also note that Chenin blanc really needs to have yields kept low if you're to make interesting wine — but will give high yields if allowed. That's another headache for grape-growers.

Personally I'd think it worth it in the end — one of my occaisional day dreams is owning a winery in Savennières or Montlouis — but I'd guess it's not an easy grape to grow or make wine from. In most regions, it'd follow that up by being a hard wine to sell, I guess.

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ORIGINAL: Echinosum
I felt it was head and shoulders the best white wine I'd drunk in years, and it cost only GBP16 in bond.

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ORIGINAL: Eddie

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ORIGINAL: Echinosum
I felt it was head and shoulders the best white wine I'd drunk in years, and it cost only GBP16 in bond.

Sounds like something I'd like, but WineSearcher shows only 3 vendors in the U.S., with prices running from $37 to $49 per bottle.......

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ORIGINAL: Echinosum

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ORIGINAL: Eddie

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ORIGINAL: Echinosum
I felt it was head and shoulders the best white wine I'd drunk in years, and it cost only GBP16 in bond.

Sounds like something I'd like, but WineSearcher shows only 3 vendors in the U.S., with prices running from $37 to $49 per bottle.......

I have been nursing a suspicion that SA wines are not as easily/cheaply available in the US as in Britain, maybe northern Europe in general, given the relative lack of comments on them from the US direction. Here in Britain many serious wine merchants have very long SA lists, so many producers and individual bottlings it is difficult to choose what to buy.