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Wood - 1/28/2024 10:31:13 PM

nwinther

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Listened to a podcast the other day where they get to talking about the effect of oak on wine, specifically the difference between French and American oak.
The podcaster has difficulty explaining why there is a difference - but apparantly it comes down to varieties (white oak, common oak etc).

Years ago I read in a book that the main difference was one of production, where French oak was split and Americak oak was sawed, opening up the pores of the wood resulting in more pronounced oak flavor.

Well, anyway, I also recalled, years ago reading about Italian wine producers using some large chestnut casks.
And of course Retsina probably came about using pine or spruce for the barrel.

And this got me thinking, does anyone know of winemakers experimenting with different types of wood and what it does to a wine?

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RE: Wood - 1/29/2024 1:23:19 AM

penguinoid

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The region that the oak is from also makes a difference, at least in the sense that cooler climates and/or less fertile soils means slower growth, thus tighter grained wood, thus more restrained oak flavours. Whether region imparts specific flavours to oak (terroir) similarly to grapes is still debated.

In different parts of Europe, acacia and chestnut barrels have traditionally been used. Acacia is/was common in the Loire valley for Chenin blanc, and I think is sometimes used for Viognier in the Rhône. There's a brief writeup on Wine Enthusiast, and a bit about its use in the US on SevenFifty Daily. Apparently they are more neutral in flavour, but contribute to the texture.

I vaguely remember reading about an Australian producer experimenting with an acacia barrel for Chenin blanc, but they were not allowed to release it because it is not an authorised food additive/processing aid in Australia -- so don't expect to see any alternative woods being used in Australia in the near future.

There is a summary of a study on the use of chestnut barrels here. This also notes in passing that cherry, ash, and mulberry have been used to produce barrels in the past -- no idea what they're like.

One key advantage of oak that cannot be understated is that it is not very porous. Chestnut, for example, is more porous, but presumably tolerable. If the wood is too porous, you'll lose too much wine from evaporation or leakage. It will also impact the rate of oxygen absorption.

< Message edited by penguinoid -- 1/29/2024 1:24:10 AM >

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RE: Wood - 1/29/2024 5:55:52 AM

xyc

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nwinther,

You can find much more than you will have time to read on google scholar. Research has been done in Europe and US for decades. Good luck.

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RE: Wood - 1/29/2024 7:03:25 AM

Echinosum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: penguinoid
In different parts of Europe, acacia and chestnut barrels have traditionally been used. Acacia is/was common in the Loire valley for Chenin blanc, and I think is sometimes used for Viognier in the Rhône. There's a brief writeup on Wine Enthusiast, and a bit about its use in the US on SevenFifty Daily. Apparently they are more neutral in flavour, but contribute to the texture.

I vaguely remember reading about an Australian producer experimenting with an acacia barrel for Chenin blanc, but they were not allowed to release it because it is not an authorised food additive/processing aid in Australia -- so don't expect to see any alternative woods being used in Australia in the near future.

I was a bit surprised to read of acacia being "grown in northern France" for barrels, as that seemed implausible both climatically in in terms of wood-working. But it turns out it is actually Robinia pseudoacacia that they use. I understand it is known as black locust in the US, and is actually a native of the US. As the Latin name correctly implies, it isn't acacia, and it has only very superficial resemblance to it. They are both members of the bean family, but so are peanuts. Common names are dreadful.

An important difference between "American" and various European varieties of oak is they are different species, rather than necessarily where they are grown. "American oak" as used for Spanish wine is typically grown in Spain or elsewhere in Europe. But the point is that American oak implies Quercus alba, whereas the various Europe oaks are mainly Quercus robur, but some Q. petraea also. As far as I can see, you can't make adequate barrels out of sawn European oak wood even if you wanted to, it has to be split. So whilst there may be some considerable truth in the claim that it is the use of sawn wood, rather than the species difference, that means American oak gives such a pronounced vanillin taste to the wine, you can't do that with European oak.

Although there is an increasing use of composite wine containers, where stainless steel frames are used to support oak panels. The huge advantage is that you can use flat staves, with large cost saving. Might not look very traditional, but seems to be just as effective in practice, an acceptable method for high quality wine. I wonder if you could use sawn planks of European oak under those conditions, where you don't have to bend the staves into a barrel shape.

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RE: Wood - 1/29/2024 7:55:31 AM

penguinoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum

quote:

ORIGINAL: penguinoid
In different parts of Europe, acacia and chestnut barrels have traditionally been used. Acacia is/was common in the Loire valley for Chenin blanc, and I think is sometimes used for Viognier in the Rhône. There's a brief writeup on Wine Enthusiast, and a bit about its use in the US on SevenFifty Daily. Apparently they are more neutral in flavour, but contribute to the texture.

I vaguely remember reading about an Australian producer experimenting with an acacia barrel for Chenin blanc, but they were not allowed to release it because it is not an authorised food additive/processing aid in Australia -- so don't expect to see any alternative woods being used in Australia in the near future.

I was a bit surprised to read of acacia being "grown in northern France" for barrels, as that seemed implausible both climatically in in terms of wood-working. But it turns out it is actually Robinia pseudoacacia that they use. I understand it is known as black locust in the US, and is actually a native of the US. As the Latin name correctly implies, it isn't acacia, and it has only very superficial resemblance to it. They are both members of the bean family, but so are peanuts. Common names are dreadful.

Yes, this was a surprise for me too. I'd read about the use of acacia before, but assumed it was a European acacia species.

It doesn't help that the genus Acacia was re-described in the early 2000's, with Australasian species (controversially) keeping the name Acacia and other species being split between several new genera. For the moment at least, I think we'll stick to the older sensu lato (lose sense) definition of the genus

.

Common names really can't be relied on to give you an idea of the species biology -- often species in new world regions are named after familiar species that they resemble but are not related to. Probably made sense at the time, but can cause confusion now

(Yes, this is what I studied for my undergraduate degree...

)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum
An important difference between "American" and various European varieties of oak is they are different species, rather than necessarily where they are grown. "American oak" as used for Spanish wine is typically grown in Spain or elsewhere in Europe. But the point is that American oak implies Quercus alba, whereas the various Europe oaks are mainly Quercus robur, but some Q. petraea also. As far as I can see, you can't make adequate barrels out of sawn European oak wood even if you wanted to, it has to be split. So whilst there may be some considerable truth in the claim that it is the use of sawn wood, rather than the species difference, that means American oak gives such a pronounced vanillin taste to the wine, you can't do that with European oak.

Yes, 100% -- oak species is more important than climate/location. nwinther did mention this (albeit incorrectly in terms of varieties rather than species) so I didn't think it worth mentioning again. Climate is important when comparing barrels of the same species.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum
Although there is an increasing use of composite wine containers, where stainless steel frames are used to support oak panels. The huge advantage is that you can use flat staves, with large cost saving. Might not look very traditional, but seems to be just as effective in practice, an acceptable method for high quality wine. I wonder if you could use sawn planks of European oak under those conditions, where you don't have to bend the staves into a barrel shape.

These seem an interesting idea, particularly for more affordable wines. One potential downside is that you won't get the same gentle oxygenation that you get in barrels, which is a key part of barrel ageing. I guess you could replace this with micro-oxygenation, but I'd prefer just to use barrels. If the money is there.

I'm not sure what impact sawing rather than splitting European oak would have. Presumably, this is where you would see a real difference due to sawing rather than splitting. I'd guess there's some truth to the idea that this does lead to more pronounced oak character, but of course it would be more pronounced European oak character.

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RE: Wood - 1/29/2024 8:41:09 AM

jmcmchi

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To the OP, a local winery, Celaeno, has experimented with using Pennsylvania oak vs Kentucky oak for syrah. Distinctly different results

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RE: Wood - 1/29/2024 11:08:54 AM

CranBurgundy

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Grain & density have an effect on how much air gets into the wine while it's racked in the barrel.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmcmchi

To the OP, a local winery, Celaeno, has experimented with using Pennsylvania oak vs Kentucky oak for syrah. Distinctly different results

That's strange.... most of the state besides Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and select few counties is known as Pennsyltucky, so you would think there wasn't much difference.

How much wood for wine would a wood barrel barrel if a wood barrel would barrel wine?

< Message edited by CranBurgundy -- 1/29/2024 11:10:01 AM >

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RE: Wood - 1/29/2024 12:58:11 PM

ChrisinCowiche

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The oak trees have terroir. They also have very different species of plant, even in just the United States, there is such thing as "American Oak". It would be like saying "American Red Grapes". Then there are toast levels, individual cooperage techniques, temperature variations in cellars/outdoors, primary and secondary fermentations, in barrel or not, etc... Probably at least a dozen variables in some sort of Fourier equation when it comes to oak influence on wine making.

When I first started making wine in carboys, I did a few trials with the various chips/chunks of oaks available at a couple of wine making shops. FH Steinbart https://fhsteinbart.com/ in Portland being the best one still existing I think, and learned pretty quickly which flavor profiles are American vs. French, and which I preferred in the wines I was making, French for my tastes in Cab Franc and Syrah, which are two reds I played with mostly. It really helped tune my palate such that today I can usually detect the oak sources in a general way when I notice the oak in a wine.

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RE: Wood - 1/30/2024 2:29:10 AM

penguinoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisinCowiche
The oak trees have terroir. They also have very different species of plant, even in just the United States, there is such thing as "American Oak". It would be like saying "American Red Grapes".

Yes, I think there is no debate that climate influences the character of the wood and thus of the oak barrels. Equally, there is no dispute that different species of oak produce wood with different qualities. The dispute seems to be whether other aspects of terroir such as soil or aspect can.

Many of the larger barrel makers argue not, but they also tend to sell barrels categorised by grain tightness (and thus implicitly climate) rather than single forest barrels. In practice, I think, this decision was made for them based on availability of oak staves rather than on philosophical principles. In contrast, smaller barrel makes that still make single forest barrels often argue that there is a difference between oak from different forests. In both cases, you can quote Mandy Rice-Davies and say, "Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?"

Some research by a colleague suggests that there may be differences between oak from different forests, but I guess the matter is not 100% resolved yet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisinCowiche
Then there are toast levels, individual cooperage techniques, temperature variations in cellars/outdoors, primary and secondary fermentations, in barrel or not, etc... Probably at least a dozen variables in some sort of Fourier equation when it comes to oak influence on wine making.

Yes, that's a whole different matter. The conditions in which the oak staves are matured prior to being used for barrel production also matter -- hot and dry weather will produce different results to cool and wet weather. This is why French barrels produced by AP John in the Barossa Valley are different to those produced by French barrel makers, for example. I am not sure if this would be considered an aspect of terroir.

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RE: Wood - 1/30/2024 2:30:23 AM

penguinoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmcmchi
To the OP, a local winery, Celaeno, has experimented with using Pennsylvania oak vs Kentucky oak for syrah. Distinctly different results

Would be interesting to try these and compare. Not being American, are the climates of the two different regions different? (Sorry, I genuinely have no idea!)

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RE: Wood - 1/31/2024 2:16:50 AM

Echinosum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: penguinoid

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum
Although there is an increasing use of composite wine containers, where stainless steel frames are used to support oak panels. The huge advantage is that you can use flat staves, with large cost saving. Might not look very traditional, but seems to be just as effective in practice, an acceptable method for high quality wine. I wonder if you could use sawn planks of European oak under those conditions, where you don't have to bend the staves into a barrel shape.

These seem an interesting idea, particularly for more affordable wines. One potential downside is that you won't get the same gentle oxygenation that you get in barrels, which is a key part of barrel ageing. I guess you could replace this with micro-oxygenation, but I'd prefer just to use barrels. If the money is there.

I'm not sure what impact sawing rather than splitting European oak would have. Presumably, this is where you would see a real difference due to sawing rather than splitting. I'd guess there's some truth to the idea that this does lead to more pronounced oak character, but of course it would be more pronounced European oak character.

I think it is fine for top wine too, but perhaps I didn't explain it very well. As far as I can see, you can get exactly the same gentle oxygenation as in traditional barrels, because most of the container has wooden panels with wine on one side and air on the other. The stainless steel frame simply enables the construction of a box-shaped barrel with flat wooden faces. Most of the air-facing sides of the container are wood, just as with a barrel. You can arrange the dimensions so that there is just the same ratio of air-facing wood to wine as with the traditional barrel of your choice. So I think these aging containers can be perfectly fine for expensive as well as affordable wines. What difference does it make that the wooden faces of the barrel are flat rather than curved? Not much, I think, except a reduction in construction cost.

So why haven't they become common? I'm not sure. Conservatism, worry, lack of familiarity with the customers, the marketing benefit of being able to show the customers a cellar full of traditional barrels. Maybe if a few sufficiently prestigious estates had the courage to show that it makes no difference, then maybe it could then become widespread. If there is a disadvantage with them, then I can't think what it is.

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RE: Wood - 1/31/2024 5:37:56 AM

penguinoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum

quote:

ORIGINAL: penguinoid

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum
Although there is an increasing use of composite wine containers, where stainless steel frames are used to support oak panels. The huge advantage is that you can use flat staves, with large cost saving. Might not look very traditional, but seems to be just as effective in practice, an acceptable method for high quality wine. I wonder if you could use sawn planks of European oak under those conditions, where you don't have to bend the staves into a barrel shape.

These seem an interesting idea, particularly for more affordable wines. One potential downside is that you won't get the same gentle oxygenation that you get in barrels, which is a key part of barrel ageing. I guess you could replace this with micro-oxygenation, but I'd prefer just to use barrels. If the money is there.

I'm not sure what impact sawing rather than splitting European oak would have. Presumably, this is where you would see a real difference due to sawing rather than splitting. I'd guess there's some truth to the idea that this does lead to more pronounced oak character, but of course it would be more pronounced European oak character.

I think it is fine for top wine too, but perhaps I didn't explain it very well. As far as I can see, you can get exactly the same gentle oxygenation as in traditional barrels, because most of the container has wooden panels with wine on one side and air on the other. The stainless steel frame simply enables the construction of a box-shaped barrel with flat wooden faces. Most of the air-facing sides of the container are wood, just as with a barrel. You can arrange the dimensions so that there is just the same ratio of air-facing wood to wine as with the traditional barrel of your choice. So I think these aging containers can be perfectly fine for expensive as well as affordable wines. What difference does it make that the wooden faces of the barrel are flat rather than curved? Not much, I think, except a reduction in construction cost.

Ok, thanks -- yes, I think I misunderstood. I have seen what are essentially stainless steel containers with oak staves as inserts marketed, and thought that's what you meant.

Now that I think of it, I have seen systems similar to what you describe. They do seem a good idea.

Potentially, the fact that they are box shaped rather than rounded should make them more practical in the winery.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum
So why haven't they become common? I'm not sure. Conservatism, worry, lack of familiarity with the customers, the marketing benefit of being able to show the customers a cellar full of traditional barrels. Maybe if a few sufficiently prestigious estates had the courage to show that it makes no difference, then maybe it could then become widespread. If there is a disadvantage with them, then I can't think what it is.

I can't think of many either. I've heard it argued that the shape of the maturation vessel can slightly influence wine ageing, but I am not sure the effect would be that pronounced.

Assuming they're competitively priced compared with barrels, I'd guess lack of familiarity is a the biggest problem.

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RE: Wood - 1/31/2024 10:57:43 PM

nwinther

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quote:

ORIGINAL: penguinoid
I can't think of many either. I've heard it argued that the shape of the maturation vessel can slightly influence wine ageing, but I am not sure the effect would be that pronounced.

The hair on my arms always stand up when I hear things like that. Mainly because there is so much uncontrolled chemistry going on in winemaking that making controlled experiments are practically impossible. Vintage (weather, disease etc.), grape, soil, time and method of harvesting, pressing, yeast, length of fermentation, extraction, pigage/no pigage, storage (cellar temperature, material of vessel (specifically where did that tree grow and what vareity is it), size of vessel, shape of vessel, duration in cask), bottling, method of sealing (cork, plastic, glass, screwcap), size of bottle, post-bottling cellaring, transportation, aftermarket cellaring (temperature, light, duration), airing/decanting method and duration, what type of glass is used (is it Zalto Bordeaux or Zalto Burgundy or Riedel or Spigelau or something else).

ANY one of those can make a difference and one choice influences the effect of any or all of the former choices, and all of it can be rendered almost meaningless if customer cellaring is off or someone uses a paper cup.
I can't deny that it makes a difference, but I always get suspicious when a producer markets one particular thing out of all of the above, because while that may be correct, there is no way of confirming it. Sure, a producer could prove the difference on-site, that there is a difference with that particular sample - but what happens after?

On-topic, I've never seen those vessels, but it sounds like a great idea to keep production costs down and give a better measure of control (like, replacing half the staves or whatever the producer would like to. Pretty difficult with a coopered cask.

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RE: Wood - 2/1/2024 5:25:27 AM

penguinoid

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nwinther

quote:

ORIGINAL: penguinoid
I can't think of many either. I've heard it argued that the shape of the maturation vessel can slightly influence wine ageing, but I am not sure the effect would be that pronounced.

The hair on my arms always stand up when I hear things like that. Mainly because there is so much uncontrolled chemistry going on in winemaking that making controlled experiments are practically impossible. Vintage (weather, disease etc.), grape, soil, time and method of harvesting, pressing, yeast, length of fermentation, extraction, pigage/no pigage, storage (cellar temperature, material of vessel (specifically where did that tree grow and what vareity is it), size of vessel, shape of vessel, duration in cask), bottling, method of sealing (cork, plastic, glass, screwcap), size of bottle, post-bottling cellaring, transportation, aftermarket cellaring (temperature, light, duration), airing/decanting method and duration, what type of glass is used (is it Zalto Bordeaux or Zalto Burgundy or Riedel or Spigelau or something else).

I'm an oenology research student, so these are all things I have to worry about to greater or lesser extents in my research.

It is possible to control for these to some extent, but not 100%. If you want to look at the influence of fermentation or ageing vessel, for example, then you'd want to keep all other variables constant. Ideally, you'd want grapes from the same vineyard, harvested and treated identically and then split arbitrarily between different replicate fermentations in different vessels. These can then be tasted (sensory analysis) under controlled circumstances and also analysed chemically.

That being said, wine can age somewhat differently even in different but functionally 'identical barrels', just because. Presumably slight differences even between 'identical' barrels can influence wine character.

quote:

ORIGINAL: nwinther
ANY one of those can make a difference and one choice influences the effect of any or all of the former choices, and all of it can be rendered almost meaningless if customer cellaring is off or someone uses a paper cup.
I can't deny that it makes a difference, but I always get suspicious when a producer markets one particular thing out of all of the above, because while that may be correct, there is no way of confirming it. Sure, a producer could prove the difference on-site, that there is a difference with that particular sample - but what happens after?

To some extent it can be just marketing, yes. If they can prove the difference on-site, that's the best that could be hoped for, though, and is not meaningless.

Once the customer takes the wine home, it's out of the producers' control. I'm not sure that invalidates any differences that may or may not be seen at the winery.

quote:

ORIGINAL: nwinther
On-topic, I've never seen those vessels, but it sounds like a great idea to keep production costs down and give a better measure of control (like, replacing half the staves or whatever the producer would like to. Pretty difficult with a coopered cask.

Yes, seems to have some advantages. Though, to be fair, barrels can be restored and (I think) dodgy staves can be replaced if necessary -- some coopers will do this as a service. They will also shave and re-toast the oak if required.

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