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RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/25/2024 8:33:06 AM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4663
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		Actually, for what I look for I think I'm getting excellent pricing. But I don't doubt what you are saying for what you hunt for.

_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to Paul852)
Post #: 31
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/25/2024 9:39:31 AM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

Posts: 7853
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Cowiche, WA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul852


quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul852

I'm with you on that. I almost never use the CT app, and have the same fear as you. The worst example for me of this trend is banking - my bank (HSBC) is in the process of removing functionality from their online banking website and trying to push me to do banking and investing on my phone, whilst at the same time bombarding me with warnings about the inherent insecurity of mobile phones!

To try to understand whether I'm just an out of touch dinosaur I've put a little poll up over on WB. Happy to have everyone's inputs...

Thanks for the poll Paul. A much better approach imo than the thread entitled "CT forces payment" or something to that effect.

The idea that Eric should be obligated to provide free software is patently absurd. The choice is always available to stop using/unsubscribe, but as been has been pointed out by people who actually read the announcement, the basic cellar functions will remain free.

On a sorta related subject, for years, probably 25 or so, I have used AutoCAD drawing/drafting software, it was part of my job, so my employer always paid the subscription (sometimes after jockeying with IT departments over whether engineers really need to draw things for their project work. ). Anyway, my new/current job does not have that element, so I can't justify the software as a business need.

But I still LOVE to draw ideas of projects for home, wineries, cellar racking, landscaping, whatever my hobby ideas are at the time. I'm in process of evaluating the various platforms out there. Anyone with ideas, please share. My current thinking is I'll lease a pay as you go (so many "points" per hours/days of use), something like $300 to get started, with the same software, AutoCAD LT, that I'm most competent with. I am tempted to try the 3D version, just to create neater visual pictures/isometrics. My brain can work in a 2-D drafting world, top, front, side views, but some of my intended audience, barbilocks, needs to "see it" in a more photographic view.

Anyway, that corollary popped up for me this weekend, and it further enhances my opinion that CT is a bargain, and it's probably the only software that I use 200+ times a year. I don't use all the capability, but when I get curious I can use it to slice and dice my cellar, tasting notes, or those of others with relative ease. i don't use it to buy wine really, but I do enjoy reading notes and looking at collections different than my own. CT greatly enhances my wine hobby, and I'll subscribe as soon as asked. I just renewed in December at the recommended fee for my cellar size, so will be curious how that gets rolled out.

< Message edited by ChrisinCowiche -- 3/25/2024 9:44:14 AM >

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Post #: 32
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/25/2024 11:58:51 AM   
Healeymr

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 3/22/2024
Status: offline 		I saw Paul's poll. I am not going to join another forum to reply. I already feel over exposed to social media by having joined this forum. Including this, I participat in 1 social media platform.

But, I did want to provide some data. Here is what I do on each device type.

Adding wine with working bar codes: mobile
Adding wine without working bar codes: PC
Deciding what to drink: PC
Inventory: PC
Moving wine from the basement cellar to the bar or kitchen chiller: PC
Deciding what to buy: PC
Removing consumed wine: Mobile or PC
Adding wine to 'wish list': mobile Usually at a restaurant

It is not unusual for me to have the phone and PC both on the counter when adding wine. If the bar code works, I use that if not, the PC

I will say this again, I don't mind if they charge me, but, if they charge me, and then ignore the desktop interface or start selling my data, then I have a problem.

Finally, I have not yet found an alternative, which makes me even more apprehensive.

< Message edited by Healeymr -- 3/25/2024 12:18:41 PM >

(in reply to ChrisinCowiche)
Post #: 33
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/25/2024 12:09:50 PM   
Healeymr

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 3/22/2024
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stefan


I am pretty confident that the cellatracker-team has very good understanding based on actual data on how their service is used, from what platform/device etc. This coupled with looking at general trends on what devices that are used for similar services and from that are making smart decisions on where to put their development efforts. It would not surprise me if most users actually use the mobile interface the most. But also that people that are on this forum (me included obviously) tend to like a computer interface more.


This is exactly what I am afraid of. If the data says that only 30% of the time spent on CT is on the Web/PC, then why spend anything on that platform. The app is all that will matter. For me, that kills the usefulness of CT.

(in reply to Stefan)
Post #: 34
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/25/2024 2:45:09 PM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4663
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		I don't see Paul's poll -- did he take it down? If not, which sub-forum is it in, and under what title?

_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to Healeymr)
Post #: 35
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/25/2024 3:28:01 PM   
Redrunners

 

Posts: 919
Joined: 7/9/2010
From: Glastonbury, CT
Status: offline 		Paul has a link to the Beserkers poll in his first post

_____________________________

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Post #: 36
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/25/2024 4:22:47 PM   
Ralphs Bar

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 9/18/2023
From: Central Coast, CA
Status: offline 		I feel like the elephants in the room are advertising and the broader commercialization of CT. Based on the post from Eric, I am grateful to CTs commitment to not going down the advertising road. That said, I am also worried that increasing intensity of development and polish on CT's platform and mobile app could draw interest from outside buyers and down the road of commercialization, advertising, purchase of CT, etc.

While the news of a new payment structure is of some concern for a freeloader like me with a tiny collection, I feel extremely lucky to get to participate in community convos, track my TNs and consumption history, look at community notes, all without having to stomach the latest ad for a 2025 Hyundai Santa Fe or a sponsored listing from [insert corporate winery] at the top of my search results. I would obviously prefer to continue using the site freely, especially given my small "cellar" and tight budget for this hobby, but I hope that this move is to safeguard CT as an independent, clean, and healthy site far into the future

(in reply to KPB)
Post #: 37
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/25/2024 6:04:53 PM   
brettlaurvick

 

Posts: 904
Joined: 2/20/2018
From: Sarasota, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Blue Shorts

quote:

I'm an old dog, still miss msdos and fortran coding,
- ChrisinCowiche

Similar feeling here. I miss MS-DOS, but I'm ambivalent about Fortran. I miss the coding, but the formatting issues were insane.

I still use CellarTracker Classic and will continue to do so. And we encourage all of customers get a CellarTracker account and to make sure they donate for the additional features currently available

_____________________________

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Owner - Cellar Fifty-Five Wine Storage, Sarasota

"Good wine is a necessity of life for me" - Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Blue Shorts)
Post #: 38
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/26/2024 2:04:59 AM   
penguinoid

 

Posts: 1062
Joined: 1/10/2013
From: Australia via the UK, now in Bozen-Bolzano, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ralphs Bar
While the news of a new payment structure is of some concern for a freeloader like me with a tiny collection, I feel extremely lucky to get to participate in community convos, track my TNs and consumption history, look at community notes, all without having to stomach the latest ad for a 2025 Hyundai Santa Fe or a sponsored listing from [insert corporate winery] at the top of my search results. I would obviously prefer to continue using the site freely, especially given my small "cellar" and tight budget for this hobby, but I hope that this move is to safeguard CT as an independent, clean, and healthy site far into the future


Yes, I hope so too. From the announcement, it does seem like there will still be a free tier of membership for the foreseeable future. I can understand the need for revenue (especially given the lack of ads, which I'm also grateful for), but hope this can be balanced against basic accessibility for those of us on a tighter budget and with small "cellars". I'm ok with reserving the more advanced features for paying members only, of course.

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(in reply to Ralphs Bar)
Post #: 39
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/26/2024 3:42:04 AM   
Echinosum

 

Posts: 604
Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
Status: offline 		CT provides a lot of stuff I don't use, or would be happy to lose if I had to pay more for it. So maybe there can be tiered charges with varying benefits.

My holdings are 2.5 years of Paul's consumption, but 10 years of my consumption. I've largely built that up over the last 7 years, when my cellar was run down to very little. So holdings are not necessarily a very good predictor of annual wine spend.

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Post #: 40
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/26/2024 6:28:54 AM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4663
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Redrunners

Paul has a link to the Beserkers poll in his first post


Found it. Thank, Paul. Interesting poll. I’m mostly using a mobile (iPad) system, but rather then the app I just have a shortcut to the web site.

< Message edited by KPB -- 3/26/2024 6:30:03 AM >

_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

(in reply to Redrunners)
Post #: 41
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/26/2024 7:12:10 AM   
Paul852

 

Posts: 2656
Joined: 6/27/2018
From: Hong Kong
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB
Found it. Thank, Paul. Interesting poll. I’m mostly using a mobile (iPad) system, but rather then the app I just have a shortcut to the web site.

Yes - in retrospect I could have worded the poll better - it's more to do with app vs website than the specific type of device.

(in reply to KPB)
Post #: 42
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/26/2024 7:19:56 AM   
MB1991

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 3/27/2023
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ralphs Bar

I feel like the elephants in the room are advertising and the broader commercialization of CT. Based on the post from Eric, I am grateful to CTs commitment to not going down the advertising road. That said, I am also worried that increasing intensity of development and polish on CT's platform and mobile app could draw interest from outside buyers and down the road of commercialization, advertising, purchase of CT, etc.

While the news of a new payment structure is of some concern for a freeloader like me with a tiny collection, I feel extremely lucky to get to participate in community convos, track my TNs and consumption history, look at community notes, all without having to stomach the latest ad for a 2025 Hyundai Santa Fe or a sponsored listing from [insert corporate winery] at the top of my search results. I would obviously prefer to continue using the site freely, especially given my small "cellar" and tight budget for this hobby, but I hope that this move is to safeguard CT as an independent, clean, and healthy site far into the future


I'm the other way....I would stop using this platform if it was not free, and would much rather get an ad or sponsored post than pay for the service. It's a great hobby, but for my cellar size it's not worth it to me to pay for the platform and I'd miss this forum but wouldn't be the end of the world.

(in reply to Ralphs Bar)
Post #: 43
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/26/2024 7:29:06 AM   
penguinoid

 

Posts: 1062
Joined: 1/10/2013
From: Australia via the UK, now in Bozen-Bolzano, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Healeymr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stefan

I am pretty confident that the cellatracker-team has very good understanding based on actual data on how their service is used, from what platform/device etc. This coupled with looking at general trends on what devices that are used for similar services and from that are making smart decisions on where to put their development efforts. It would not surprise me if most users actually use the mobile interface the most. But also that people that are on this forum (me included obviously) tend to like a computer interface more.


This is exactly what I am afraid of. If the data says that only 30% of the time spent on CT is on the Web/PC, then why spend anything on that platform. The app is all that will matter. For me, that kills the usefulness of CT.



Yes, genuinely hope this doesn't happen. The (current) app is certainly very useful (and I am sure the new one will be) but for some things the smaller screen and lack of a proper keyboard are quite limiting. I can type tasting notes on my phone but it's a pain and I prefer not to, for example.

_____________________________

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https://www.cellartracker.com/user.asp?iUserOverride=167981

https://www.instagram.com/penguinoid/
https://blog.wodewose.org/

(in reply to Healeymr)
Post #: 44
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/26/2024 8:55:33 AM   
mye

 

Posts: 2317
Joined: 3/26/2009
From: Bellevue, WA
Status: offline 		What are people worried about?? I'm assuming (b/c i'm not Eric) but
1. he's not TURNING OFF the website (and making CT mobile only)
2. he's not REMOVING features from the current website....

so..... if he spends 100% of ALL development effort on Mobile for say... next two years.. entirely Mobile focus development hours (which is probably not the case at all, but even if we made that assumption)
All this means is the the mobile app will become increasingly awesome.

The existing web version isn't becoming WORSE.

"The current website is great, we all do x, y, z, on the website today" - yup agree, i do too personally. and we'll keep doing that on the website tomorrow..
what are people worried about?

< Message edited by mye -- 3/26/2024 8:56:11 AM >

(in reply to penguinoid)
Post #: 45
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/26/2024 9:24:23 AM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4663
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline 		@mye, I don't think people are really "worried".

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The Professor of Brettology

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Post #: 46
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/26/2024 9:40:48 AM   
Ralphs Bar

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 9/18/2023
From: Central Coast, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: penguinoid
From the announcement, it does seem like there will still be a free tier of membership for the foreseeable future. I'm ok with reserving the more advanced features for paying members only, of course.


I agree! And it seems healthy for the site to continue encouraging new free users to hop on, especially given how long it can take to scratch the surface of wine learning.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB
I don't think people are really "worried".


I'm shaking in my boots I tell you!

(in reply to penguinoid)
Post #: 47
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/26/2024 3:41:52 PM   
Ivanidea

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 3/26/2024
Status: offline 		Will be interested to find out if the mobile subscription is in addition to the voluntary website subscription.

I'm old school and prefer to use a computer with it's large screens and keyboard and mouse. The app is great when researching a wine in a store or restaurant though.

(in reply to Ralphs Bar)
Post #: 48
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/26/2024 3:59:38 PM   
Scott W

 

Posts: 959
Joined: 11/20/2012
From: Sherman Oaks Ca
Status: offline 		I use the site every day and it is never down (well maybe a minute or two) I use a computer mostly but mobile when out and about. I also pay every year, that being said having to subscribe does not concern me (within reason) for what I get every single day. YMMV

Improvements are always welcome!

< Message edited by Scott W -- 3/26/2024 4:00:20 PM >

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Post #: 49
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/26/2024 4:17:47 PM   
KPB

 

Posts: 4663
Joined: 11/25/2012
From: Ithaca, New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ralphs Bar
I'm shaking in my boots I tell you!


Given your location, could be a mild earthquake…

_____________________________

Ken Birman
The Professor of Brettology

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Post #: 50
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/27/2024 7:12:05 AM   
wineismylife

 

Posts: 6494
Joined: 11/7/2006
From: Arlington, TX
Status: offline 		Nothing like announcing a software change to generate way too many comments and questions.

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Wine is like potato chips around me...if it's open, it's gone.

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Post #: 51
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/27/2024 2:19:09 PM   
BobMilton

 

Posts: 2877
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: Newbury Park, CA
Status: offline 		Just got an email from Eric that says their recommended pay scale will be the same. That's fine with me.

(in reply to wineismylife)
Post #: 52
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/27/2024 3:30:15 PM   
Echinosum

 

Posts: 604
Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BobMilton
Just got an email from Eric that says their recommended pay scale will be the same. That's fine with me.

You mean the present recommended pay-scale will become the compulsory pay-scale?

Well I don't know what their present yields and distribution of payments is. Maybe they think a lot of free-loaders will pay up. Maybe they think people like me, who volunteer something material, but a lot less than the recommended payment, will pay a large multiple of what they currently pay. And they would only need a relatively small proportion of people in my situation to pay rather than go away to increase their income. As I say, my guess would be that a lot of people pay a lot less than the recommended payment, but I don't know.

There are certainly circumstances where asking people to make voluntary payments earns more than any compulsory pay-scale. And there are circumstances where a lot of the customer base will be happy to take something for free or nearly free when there is no required payment. I don't have the information to know how things are here.

Ultimately it is their business and they can do what they want. All I know is that if they insist I pay what is the current recommended pay scale, and don't have any cheaper options other than nothing for me, then from me, they will be getting nothing rather than what I currently pay voluntarily. Not for a moment would I have ever have considered joining CT if the only way was to pay that amount. I cannot say what the rest of the customer base will do. But if they go that way, they will find out.

< Message edited by Echinosum -- 3/27/2024 3:34:50 PM >

_____________________________

A discriminating palate can be a curse.

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Post #: 53
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/27/2024 3:40:49 PM   
BobMilton

 

Posts: 2877
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: Newbury Park, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum

quote:

ORIGINAL: BobMilton
Just got an email from Eric that says their recommended pay scale will be the same. That's fine with me.

You mean the present recommended pay-scale will become the compulsory pay-scale?

.
.
.

That's how I read the email. So no giant increases for folks like me (I have a small cellar with less than 100 bottles)

(in reply to Echinosum)
Post #: 54
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/27/2024 4:00:01 PM   
wine247365

 

Posts: 1014
Joined: 5/1/2012
From: OC, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BobMilton

Just got an email from Eric that says their recommended pay scale will be the same. That's fine with me.

mmm….I don’t think so. To my memory, subscription is a new word for the site, but not these Forums. On my CT site Profile. there is a “Payments” section in which a new “Renew your Subscription” button now appears. With a 1,400+ bottle collection and with trying to be a “good citizen” on the CT site by adding new bottles, writing TNs when they’re sparse for a wine, liking TNs, etc. I don’t feel bad about paying less than Eric’s past recommended Payments. However, it appears that’s going to no longer be the case as I’ll have to pay the now-required amount, nothing less. Since my company recently retired me, the QPR consideration has recently spread through much more of my decision-making. Hopefully, he establishes functionality payment tiers that give subscribers increasing functionality with higher subscription amounts and he’s not instituting a $0 or Required Subscription Amount (RSA) going forward.

(I completely support entrepreneurs monetizing their hard work like Eric’s provided us over the last 20 years, so don’t begrudge him for finally changing his business model, which I think most of us would think is long overdue. However, it does change the calculus of what we’ll receive on a go-forward basis as more is revealed.)

< Message edited by wine247365 -- 3/27/2024 4:01:56 PM >

_____________________________

The number of bottles I buy is nothing in comparison to the bottles I don’t buy. Let’s have a little perspective please.

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Post #: 55
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/27/2024 7:12:43 PM   
Eric

 

Posts: 17321
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		Please take a careful look at this FAQ: https://support.cellartracker.com/article/80-cellartracker-subscription

Please also play with the payment UI. You will see there is still considerable flexibility.

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Post #: 56
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/28/2024 5:22:27 AM   
wdcwineguys

 

Posts: 286
Joined: 4/16/2018
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		Eric

Thanks for posting. Is the FAQ page up to date? This is what it says regarding subscription pricing:

"Subscription pricing is based on your cellar size. However, you can always select a different payment amount and, there is no penalty for exceeding the cellar size for your purchased tier."

Your Message from the Founder does not make it clear how the pricing will change or if the new subscription will be an automatically calculated amount.

Also, what happens to current subscriptions and fees already paid?

With the change in business model will there be any change to the Privacy or Terms of Use where CT will ask users to opt in/out of CT selling user date to third parties? (as with many subscription based services)

Thanks

(in reply to Eric)
Post #: 57
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/28/2024 11:14:35 AM   
BobMilton

 

Posts: 2877
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: Newbury Park, CA
Status: offline 		Just to note: Eric's email said "Our suggested prices remain the same "
I have no problem at all with that.

(in reply to wine247365)
Post #: 58
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/28/2024 11:55:04 AM   
fingers

 

Posts: 8254
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline 		18 years and >$1200 paid to CT

Would be nice if us long-timers got some sort of grandfatherly discount.

(in reply to BobMilton)
Post #: 59
RE: New Cellar Tracker mobile app and business model? - 3/28/2024 1:27:35 PM   
Ibetian

 

Posts: 3582
Joined: 7/15/2007
From: Sarasota, FL and the Berkshires
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

18 years and >$1200 paid to CT

Would be nice if us long-timers got some sort of grandfatherly discount.


19 years and over $3000 for me. Yeah, a senior discount would be nice…

_____________________________

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(in reply to fingers)
Post #: 60
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