2018 Château Pavie

Community Tasting Note

14 comments have been posted

• Comment posted by sfwinelover1:

  7/18/2022 12:43:00 PM - Interesting TN in light of my multiple experiences with the ‘10 on my trip (I had a couple of small glasses at the wine shop across the street from the IC, then shared a bottle when my prodigiously generous friend and client treated us to at La Table de Pavie, one of the great meals of my life). That wine has gobs of potential, but the structure was very much still pushing everything around, so much so that my friend mused whether they’d given us a bad bottle. My answer: hard no. On a relative basis, we screwed up by ordering toward the end of the meal—at which point they decanted it into the hugest goblet I’ve ever seen, but it was still a tough go, as were the coravined glasses in the wine shop. My 96 was probably a 92 that day with 99-100 potential, all of which is to say reflective of my BDX problem, relative to CA and Tuscany, that timing these things seems so hit and miss for me (also, the year to year variation makes ‘11 and ‘12 here seem microscopic, but that’s another story). Anyway, while that ‘00 Latour was an all-time wine and the ‘10 Leoville Poyferré outstanding, there were a lot more misses than hits, even if some of those misses might turn into hits sometime in the future. Bringing my ramble to a semi-coherent conclusion, I have been buying ‘15s, ‘16s, ‘18s and ‘19s, none of which I’ve tasted, and noting how many on CT are saying that they’re drinking unusually well young. While I’m not looking toward mass infanticide, for reasons of my own you can probably imagine, I know I probably won’t make it to these wines’ senescences and toying with the idea of doing some experimenting with early drinking. Toward that end, your note is helpful and appreciated, even though this particular bottling isn’t in my cellar; thanks.

• Comment posted by csimm:

  7/18/2022 1:31:00 PM - I will first say that I believe this Pavie and its exuberant expression of fruit and flavor-vitality is hugely a product of the 2018 vintage. I’ll also say that, as you know, I generally don’t prefer “old” wines. I don’t like uber primary alcohol and acid bombs either, but I don’t like losing freshness just to taste some dirt on the finish and call it “tertiary” flavors. Timing is always tricky, and the Euros seem to have more unforgiving parameters and slimmer windows, with vintage playing a much more major part than the Yankee juice (speaking generally of course).
  
  What I grow concerned about is some of the “statistics” being used by some for comparison. For example, drinking a 2012 now isn’t necessarily a window for what a 2018 will be like in 2028. They are completely different vintages, different wines, different hygiene and cleanliness standards in many cases, etc. I think recent vintages of BDX are better for many high end producers much in part to evolutions in purity, cleanliness, and consistency. I don’t know half of jack about BDX compared to many, but when I buy BDX, I don’t buy younger than 2015...and with the intention of not laying them down for 20 years. It’s just not the stage I like these wines to be in.
  
  I know traditionalists turn their noses up at that, and there are always exceptions at the top of the echelon, and I’ve had some great older wines, but..... but, but, but. Anyway, I think this 18 Pavie was great. Maybe it won’t be tomorrow, and then maybe better in ten years, and then maybe garbage in 15 years. The meteorologists of wine can forecast that as they like. If the next bottle I open in a few years sucks, I’ll be sure to give it its due crap score; then the William Kelleys of the world, who like to launch drinking windows well past 2070, can really use me and my musings as shark fodder :)

• Comment posted by sfwinelover1:

  7/18/2022 2:55:00 PM - Your thoughts are always interesting and helpful to me, even as I note, snarkily, that while you may not be buying before ‘15, you’re sometimes suggesting holding those wines 7-10 years (at least you have control of storage). The BDX issue, writ large, viz Napa, seems to me to be that, rather than unadulterated fruit (and often alcohol, oak and sweetness) what you get young is balled up acidity and tannins, which was what made so many of the wines I had over there formidable quaffs. But I am curious. I noted recently one of the people on the site I really respect say that he thought the ‘15 and ‘16 Clos des Papes (yep, I know that’s Rhône and not BDX) both drank better in their first few years than they are now, so I just bought 2 of the ‘19s with the thought of burning one sooner than later. Am I going to get on the mailing lists for all of the Mike Smith and Kirk Venge wineries and start popping the wines before the UPS truck pulls away from my house? Probably not, but it’s good to challenge your, or at least my, assumptions from time to time. Cheers!

• Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:

  7/18/2022 8:18:00 PM - Great dialogue gents!
  SF- 2010 is one of the greatest structured vintages and while it’s a vintage I do thoroughly enjoy, some wines are ready early while others are locked up tight. I also don’t buy older wines except for super rare occasions (2010 lafite, 2009 & 2010 VCC, 2005 Latour, etc) but those are special purposeful buys as like CSIMM mentions, Bordeaux quality has exponentially increased over the last 20 years for a variety of reasons. Also as CSIMM mentions 2011, 2012, 2013 etc will never be similar to ‘great’ (eyes of beholder) 2005, 2009, 2010, 2015, 2016,2018,2019 (possible),2020 (possible) vintages if you enjoy fruit.
  
  I only have 2 of these but can’t wait to try them!

• Comment posted by sfwinelover1:

  7/18/2022 9:46:00 PM - Thanks, Lite; all points well-taken (and as always, admiring and a bit envious of your selections and hoping to have a chance to crack some bottles with you one of these days!). Your BDX knowledge thoroughly eclipses mine, but your vintage chart is generally consistent with what I was hearing and tasting, although I encountered more skepticism about about ‘20 (and ‘21, and ‘14 goes in the first group with an exclamation point, IMO). Interestingly to me as a Tuscan wine lover, the vintages largely align, except that I like ‘12 and love ‘13 over there and am all in on ‘10, ‘15 and ‘16. Cheers, and hope you’re well!

• Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:

  7/18/2022 11:09:00 PM - SF- you are welcome anytime to pull some corks with me when in AZ. Cool events going on of ever interested in coming out.
  
  ‘21 is a poor vintage and the super majority got it wrong as there are also some great wines to be had regardless of vintage issues. ‘14 is better without a doubt. Now that doesn’t mean that ‘21 doesn’t have some killer wines, that they do, but you need to be real selective Vs general buying.
  
  2020, for the barrel samples I tasted, is underrated depending on palate preference. I would associate the style to be more like recent vintages (excluding ’17) with rounder more integration/tannins (general statement) however the highs blew me away. The reason the crowd (critics as most consumers haven’t tried them yet) is poo pooing the vintage is the theoretical drastic price increase and their affinity for more classically structured wines (like Neil Martin as an example (and I don’t fault or disagree with his perspective but we have different palates)) … but if you remove 2019 which is what is being used as a barometer there is actually little to no price increase. This is an early drinker and one like 2018 should be able to be enjoyed (really enjoyed) early before ‘shutdown’. Of course with all barrel samples, they may not have been the final blend and will continue to develop in barrel.

• Comment posted by sfwinelover1:

  7/19/2022 7:09:00 AM - Great intel on BDX; thanks, Lite! BDX and Burgundy intimidate me a bit. Timing the wines seems to be a bigger issue than CA or Italy, the variability of vintages, pricing (especially for the latter), not to mention that I already have so much wine with my current interests, that getting fully into them seems overwhelming. But with BDX in particular, I do think it will happen, even if slowly. Even if the wine on my visit was, in the aggregate, slightly disappointing, the overall experience was amazing (our group, the restaurants, the town of St. Emilionn, the Grand Barrail and the BXDX IC, etc.), leaving me with a good feeling.
  
  More concretely, I’d love to come to one of your get together in AZ if you let me know when it’s going on. Easy for me to get down, and I have a fairly flexible schedule, so with a bit of a head’s up, no issue. Also was super impressed with your group’s Napa outing and would love to join, as well as doing some kind of dinner or wine meet here in SF. I’ve made some wonderful online to offline friends on CT and would love to add you to that group!
  
  Cheers, and hope to connect soon!

• Comment posted by csimm:

  7/19/2022 8:47:00 AM - Thanks for all the insight gentlemen. Very helpful indeed. Lite's breadth of knowledge in wine, and most especially in BDX has been very helpful to me in scanning the landscape and determining where I might best focus on purchases. As mentioned, I obviously know there are great vintages before 2015 (Lite's list is spot-on of course), but for my cellar I'll be buying "younger" BDX wines generally, absent some event or some themed get-together where I may purchase a one-off to add to a lineup. To my original point, it's not that I don't think a 2018 Pavie won't be more amazing in 7-10 years (which is why I guess - and it is a GUESS - at a potential drinking window after that mark), it's just that I know there is a difference between my palate and others, and not all/most are as goofy as me and like trying these as young as I do. I also believe that different isn't always better. A wine will likely be different in 10 years, but will it be better? Depends on what you are looking for. Some people wouldn't touch a Lafleur for 20 years. Maybe they are "right," but when I had a 2018 Lafleur, it was eye-opening for me. I've also had a 2000 Lafleur and it was... wait....what was I talking about? ...oh ya....BORING. It was a great wine, but it wasn't MY great wine insofar as something that lit a spark in me. In my notes I try to talk about both aspects when possible.
  
  Anyway, that's all really a bunch of circle talk I suppose. Some people seek out Ducru from the 1980s. I don't and won't ever. Some people only drink BDX 10/15/20 years from vintage and call them babies before that. I'm not necessarily in that camp. If you haven't guessed it already, I have no point (what else is new), except to thank you guys for the endless information. Whether I'm failing BDX 101 by popping these early or just bought a one-way ticket to French Hades "L'enfer" because I can't seem to peg the correct drinking window, I'll at least say I enjoyed this 18 Pavie. Maybe in the time it took me to write this, my other bottles have already shut down for the next 10 years. Who knows... :)

• Comment posted by sfwinelover1:

  7/19/2022 12:33:00 PM - I’m incredibly appreciative of both of your expertises on this and all things wine, as my knowledge is a distant third on everything to both of yours, outside possibly the Land of the Boot.
  
  Once you get to the point of knowledge, there’s the matter of taste, on which there’s no right or wrong, only personal preferences. This is why I tend to value TNs more than the scores attached, as, with both of you, since I know your preferences viz mine, I can take what I think will apply to me and filter the rest. What’s interesting to me about both of you—and I can’t emphasize enough that I don’t think that this is wrong or right, just part of my never ending quest to understand everything, or at least everything wine—is that you simultaneously like bigger CA cabs than I do and BDXs which are far less fruit driven than the CA cabs and BDX blends I often love which I think neither of you typically prefer (Montebello, Montelena, Spottswoode, Favia, Verite, etc.). Perhaps you guys are Hegelians, and I am Solomonic?
  
  2 more quick musings: Fully copping to *generally* liking older wines than you 2 do—2 of my all-timers were a ‘90 Montrose (as a side note, I had totally balled up ‘08 Montrose when in BDX) and a ‘00 Latour—I had a ‘96 Ducru a couple of years ago, and I thought it barely had a heartbeat. Was it that way when bottled? Was it dead (it was a private party purchase, but having met the seller, I thought its storage history sound)? Was it once vibrant and now sleeping, like Lazarus waiting to wake up, or had it not wakened yet, in a Rip Van Winkle slumber, waiting to pounce into action? TNs were all over the place, but most seemed to indicate it was in a fine drinking window when I popped it. And Aaron, whose tastes are most similar to mine of the people I’ve met on the site, poured me a ‘86 Gruauad a couple of years ago. We PnP’d it (after all, it had had 35 years to aerate in the bottle, hadn’t it?), and likewise, barely breathing, yet, not having looked at CT beforehand, when I went back to write my note the next day, people were saying it literally had to be left overnight, then it would sing. *Sigh*.
  
  Also, CT friend Geaux Tigers noted our conversation under a thread he and I have been having on the ‘18 Bevan ee Tench (who said my tastes are monochromatic?), and he, whose tastes seem to be somewhere in between ours, thought it wryly amusing that cs enjoyed this before he even received the ‘18s he ordered from the winery (he said he expects to start drinking them in about ‘33; I should still be drinking wine then!).
  
  Lite, I’ve enjoyed having these conversations with cs live, and look forward to the evening you and I will be able to do so, too.

• Comment posted by Geaux Tigers:

  7/19/2022 3:11:00 PM - @csimm I found myself wanting to yell at you to get off my lawn for drinking a young Pavie
  
  @sf. Too funny—I don’t recall insulting your tastes (apologies if I did!), and yes we share an affinity for NOLA and its delicious food
  
  Now I’m off to figure out why any wine drinker would live in Texas in the summer.

• Comment posted by csimm:

  7/19/2022 3:21:00 PM - Geaux! Hahahahahahaha. Nothing pairs better with a 2018 Pavie than 115 degree temperatures. I don't envy you my friend. I'm a baby about all that. Bay Area summers look a lot like Bay Area winters, and springs, and falls....... What's a season? :)

• Comment posted by sfwinelover1:

  7/19/2022 4:39:00 PM - GT: Too funny, and absolutely no apologies needed!
  
  I live in a cooler part of the Bay Area than csimm (hell, other than the foghounds living in Pacifica and HMB, I live in a cooler part of the BA than anyone; it’s called San Francisco), but on our one night heat wave several weeks ago, I found myself with an open ‘08 QC, a fabulous specimen, but not a pairing I’d recommend. Can’t imagine drinking a lot of big cabs in TX in the summer unless there was a lot of Freon blowing in my face.
  
  Great thread, guys.

• Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:

  7/22/2022 9:16:00 AM - You guys are so silly. Out here in these southern states we sit in our highly efficient airconditioned homes overlooking our pools. We are not outside, that is crazy talk... or we drive 2 hours north and are 30 degrees cooler and 11th most amount of snow in the country. AZ is tough to beat due to proximity to everything. However the rest of the year- nowhere better in the country.
  
  You all are welcome to come out and visit anytime. Here are some of the events the chateaus are flying in for in case it is of interest (no guarantee there is availability as demand is 5x on supply and invites haven't even gone out yet (Burg dinner went out this week). Full disclosure I did put together the wine program, but I do not get any monies from the restaurant.
  
  https://shoutout.wix.com/so/a4O84ATwC?languageTag=en&cid=025f746a-7c15-4846-8d4b-0bf43a28f0b8#/main

• Comment posted by csimm:

  7/23/2022 2:16:00 PM - I gotta get my stuff together so I can take a jaunt over there and check these events out!