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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/12/2011 4:29:32 PM   
ckinv368

 

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Barbera: Ok, so pressed this afternoon. Approximately 11 gallons of must created approximately 7.4 gallons of pressed wine. Did some readings, found the wine was pretty high pH, and somewhat high acid, so added a bit of tartaric acid to get it where it needed to be pH wise, then inoculated with Malolactic bacteria (which will, of course, counteract my acid additions). We'll see what happens. Did get some good tasting notes while pressing though---certainly don't think it will be a fruit bomb. Could taste a good amount of tannin from the seeds and the few stems I left in the must. We'll see if/how it settles down with the malo, and some oak added when malo is finished. But was a fun experience. Helped out others for a few hours just to do my part and get a bit more experience.

Viognier: Still bubbling happily away in the cellar, although bubbles have slowed. Will possibly bring it out of the cellar in the next 2-3 days so fermentation doesn't get stuck.

Cabernet Kit: Still (barely) going through malolactic fermentation. Love "S" air-locks---can always tell when CO2 is being produced. Will be interesting to taste when I rack. Maybe in a week or two.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/12/2011 5:31:36 PM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

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Syrah, pressed mine this morning ending up with 16 gallons of wine and half a carafe leftover. I'm sipping on the leftovers now with pleasure. Wine is fruity and still a bit yeasty, but it is definitely wine.

Riesling crushed, destemmed, and pressed today as well. All was going along swimmingly and I had ~8 gallons in 2 carboys. Shifting the carboys around and clink, SPLASH, GUSH, knocked a 4 inch hole in the bottom side of a carboy. Saved about a gallon by the time I figured it out and turned the carboy on the side opposite the hole, probably lost 2-3 gallons on my garage floor. What a mess, but pressed on (literally) and finally got about 6.5-7 gallons INSIDE the carboys. 1 5gal, 1 3 gal. Innoculated and waiting on the bugs to do their thing.

Syrah (again) letting it sit for a while and hope malolactic kicks in on its own. May buy a small barrel from Vadai. They seem to get good reviews and fair pricing. Haven't decided yet but might ask Santa Claus!


< Message edited by ChrisinSunnyside -- 11/12/2011 5:35:42 PM >


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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/12/2011 5:54:38 PM   
ckinv368

 

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Must have been the day for carboy issues. Almost lost 6 gallons (of someone else's wine) when I went to move the carboy for them. Started to pick it up by the carboy clamp / handle, and it came right off. Luckily I only lifted it about 1/2 inch off the ground. Any further and things would have been very very bad.

Sounds like you've got good batches of wine going for you though Chris (despite the accident). Will be interested to hear if you buy a barrel, and how that all works. Tempted to do the same myself, but probably not before next year.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/12/2011 7:59:33 PM   
champagneinhand

 

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The information that you have provided, ChrisinSunnyside, has been great to read. I love the Syrahs from WA and have enjoyed some that were blended with the Viognier. I've no idea about the co-fermentation, but have read that it really gives the Red a nice floral quality. I am trying the try it a bit as it goes like you suggested, and it seems to be working. As of now the juice is just sitting and resting in the carboy. I used the premiere cuvee yeast and hoping the final product will not have the monstrous 18% that that strain needs to kill it. I guess I'll find out when the final product is bottled. Do you use the Pot Mo each time you rack your juice?

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/12/2011 8:19:49 PM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

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quote:

Do you use the Pot Mo each time you rack your juice?


Yes, I use the campden tablets and crush one per 5 gallons each time I do a major step. I started with a dose of 1 in every lug (25-30 lbs) of fruit added during the crush, added a crushed tablet on top during extended masceration, then dose in each carboy when I collected the pressed wine. I doubt I'll rack more than once or twice before bottling, but I'll add more each time I move the wine. My theory is a little over sulfite is better than bacteria in the wine.

The other additive I use during crush and pressing is peptic enzyme. Supposed to help release the free run juice and improve yeild. I doubt it helps much on whites due to short time between crush and press, but on reds it should help. This time around I know I have much more pomace from the riesling than the syrah/viognier and I started was almost twice as much red fruit.

< Message edited by ChrisinSunnyside -- 11/12/2011 8:31:24 PM >


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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/12/2011 8:26:55 PM   
ckinv368

 

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Can tell you I used peptic enzyme on the barbera as well. It really helped break down the skins. Really helped with extended maceration. Used on the viognier as well, and think it helped separate the pulp from the juice pre innoculation. Good stuff.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/12/2011 10:24:01 PM   
champagneinhand

 

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I still haven't decided on whether or not to do a malolactic conversion or not. The juice tastes pretty good right now. I will probably just do some minor oaking with chips in the nylon bag, that are toasted lightly. I'm not to worried about the bacteria factor because I have about 3L of commercial wines mixed in. I am actually using a glass carboy so you minor disaster would have been major for me. I also am considering buying a barrel. They are just so pricey and high maintenance. Lots of barrel clean must be purchased as well, and I think I would want French oak or good split American from Oregon or MI/Wisconsin area. I won't be using glass carboys after this year for sure. I should have a decent amount of Chardonnay, Pinot Gris and Fronteac Gris (like Furmint) next year and if nature is willing I would like to do a late harvest blend and that would need a good barrel. We shall see how this batch turns out and how the next season progresses before the thought of a $400 barrel is even considered.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/13/2011 5:09:19 PM   
ckinv368

 

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Mine was a glass carboy as well. I just got EXTREMELY lucky. No cracks or anything.

Yea, have always heard the maintenance on the barrel is the hardest part of owning one. Heard of a guy that makes port and uses a small barrel with a spigot as a sort of "solera system," which eliminates the maintenance. But that wouldn't work that well with normal still wine.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/16/2011 3:24:01 PM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

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quote:

1 5gal, 1 3 gal. Innoculated and waiting on the bugs to do their thing.


Follow-up on my jinxed batch of Riesling. This one is a good test of my skill and patience I think to pay me back for the extreme beginners luck I had in '09. Anyway, low brix count at harvest, broken carboy, then no bubbles. Nothing on Sunday, so I divided into smaller batches (why? I have no idea, maybe so I could clean 3 carboys?) and tried again with another pair of yeasts. Monday no bubbles. Tuesday morning still no bubbles so innoculation # 3, this time with whatever little packets of yeast I had leftover. Fleishmanns was next. Finally by this morning, a layer of foam and dropping brix, now at ~18. Left at room temp and I'll check again this evening and hopfully keep it going, but slow it down.

Syrah sleeping gently in a cold room. I haven't checked for malo, and doubt it's happening, but might try to get some going. My wine shop, aka an Ace Hardware, didn't carry the malo-lactic bacteria, so it might be a month before I can try that unless I can find some from a friend at a winery or order on-line. All of my home winemaking friends didn't do any reds this year. Decision on chips/barrel still pending.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/16/2011 4:16:50 PM   
musedir

 

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Oh boy... I think I will stick with theguzzelling and leave the bootlegging to you hardy types!

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/17/2011 3:55:52 PM   
ckinv368

 

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Think my cab kit needs to be racked (believe Malolactic is now over). Officially no bubbles, signs of bubbles, and pressure seems to be dropping. Think there may have been much less malic acid in the kit than I originally was told (or else free SO2 killed the malolactic bugs). One of those two. So I'll do an initial taste test, and see if the acid needs to be adjusted down a bit at racking. Hopefully not, but never know.

Also think I need to start secondary on the viognier now. Am TERRIBLY surprised that it fermented completely dry with an initial brix of right around 30. Going to be powerful viognier, that's for sure!! My calculations say right around 17% alcohol (which is more like port).

Barbera is happily shuffling its way through malolactic now. Starting to clarify too, which is always a good thing. Lots of sediment, that's for sure!

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/17/2011 5:10:40 PM   
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Can I ask a quick question? (well I'm going to anyway..)

One of the Chateau I visited in SW France a while ago told me they keep their barrels of red at 15c and subterranean and their white at 20c and above ground. All wines were good, btw.

Why the difference? (for an amateur)

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/17/2011 5:18:55 PM   
ckinv368

 

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Maybe to slow-age the red, while smoothing out the harsher acidity of the white in a more rapid fashion? Really not sure.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/17/2011 5:19:20 PM   
ckinv368

 

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Great question for the almighty Smig to answer!

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/17/2011 10:49:00 PM   
champagneinhand

 

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I had a snafu in my Syrah production. After 4 weeks of slow fermentation I thought it might be done and made the stupid mistake of placing the solid bung on the glass carboy. 2 days later (as I was laid up with a bad headache), I go down to see the bung on the floor and messy grape juice remnants all over the carboy, but no breakage. A little extra exposure to air really pissed me off, but this is an adult chemistry experiment for me. I racked the wine back into a 6 gallon fermenting pail and brought upstairs. I added a little yeast that I had in the refrigerator and stirred it in. I can't have this fermentation get stuck, so the pail will spend the next week at 68F, our room temp just to be sure that primary fermentation is complete. When transferring the (almost) wine into the pail, it seemed as if it was almost there but still some residual sugar. This gave me a chance to clean up the mess that was created when the bung popped. I sure hope that the small exposure to air in the carboy neck doesn't ruin the whole batch, but only time will tell. I am betting this Syrah will have a final alcohol content nearing 14.5-15%. Still smells great. I'm hoping for the best. Next year I have to do my own grapes that I harvest from the vines in my back yard and don't want that botched.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/18/2011 6:58:19 AM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

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Ferm-locks are your friend. Months and months can continue to generate CO2. I discovered this when I first made some country Cherry wine that some became champagne style after bottling. None popped on their own, but I've opened most of them near a sink. I had even added a yeast kill agent, pottasium sorbate, at bottling since I sugared back, but still yeasty things lived to eat.

I have no idea about the red barrels kept cool while whites stayed warmer, but it could have to do with where they are in the production cycle. Warm (but not hot) means fermenting. Cool means aging, or some other step where you don't want much going on.

My Riesling is struggling along. Probably at nice slow rate, but I've had at least one carboy get stuck I think, no bubbles even when swilred and brix stuck at 10 for a day. Cross blending active batches has kept things moving and I'm back into 2 carboys at 7-8 Brix. Keeping them at room temp 68-70 F since the fermentation seems to be struggling. In 09 I kept my Riesling in a water bath to keep it below 70 since primary fermentation was much more vigorous.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/18/2011 9:15:52 AM   
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Back in the day when I made wine, I would leave the lock on for at least 6 months after initial racking. Many times the wine would wake up in the spring with renewed fermentation. 

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/18/2011 10:48:11 PM   
smigdiggler

 

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You guys are making this look easy....I may just hang it up and let you guys take over the reigns at Dacalier.

Seriously, you guys are having fun, and it shows

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/19/2011 9:46:50 AM   
dsGris

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: smigdiggler

You guys are making this look easy....I may just hang it up and let you guys take over the reigns at Dacalier.

Seriously, you guys are having fun, and it shows

Dave, pretty soon the smiglets will be out in the cellar, and you can just sit back. My daughter would come home from school and say "dad do you need help punching down the grapes?" She thought it was pretty cool.


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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/20/2011 3:46:49 PM   
champagneinhand

 

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I checked my 6 gallon pail of Syrah (minor amount of Pomegranate and Blueberry juice)+almost 3L of commercial wine (Cab Sauv/Franc, Merlot and a wee of PV). Malo had almost finished up. I was at 0 brix and the must/wine was fat and fruity, something I was hoping to keep in check. I added almost 1.5 tablespoons of Acid blend and 1/4 teaspoon of grape skin tannin powder. Re-racked back into the 6 gallon glass carboy which was cleaned thoroughly then rinsed again with about a pint of boiling water dosed with PotMo (camden.) After I poured that out, Siphoned and filled it back up. Now this is starting to seriously taste like wine! I definitely placed the bung with the bubbler back in after a good cleaning. I did put some oak into the carboy and is it totally cheating to put a 1" cutting of a dried vanilla bean in? Either way I did that too. I can always fish that out in a month or 2 when I re-rack. Good fruit, good on acid, tannins now I guess its watch and wait. I would love to watch your operation Smigs. I've seen a lot of the finger lakes facilities as well as Many in the Santa Cruz mountains, even a few in WA. Much, much different when things get scaled up.

I did see one of those small barrels with the spicket at my local cider mill/ wine supply facility. It was Hungarian oak, 6 gallon capacity and only $225. I'll keep that in mind if I get that good late harvest next year. I hope everybody else has survived the inevitable mishaps.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/20/2011 5:26:57 PM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

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quote:

I hope everybody else has survived the inevitable mishaps.


My Riesling seems to have straightened itself out and is now in the home stretch of primary. Brix at <2 so moved into 2 3-gal carboys and a 1 gallon jug. Ferm locked and still bubbling. In 2-3 days I'll re-check then move to the deep cold (frig at ~40F) to drop acid. I avoid malo with Riesling. Tasted today and tartartic is very evident. I'm not concerned about it now and if my final tastings warrant I might sugar back at end. If I pushed it I could bottle by Christmas.

Syrah still sleeping.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/20/2011 9:13:48 PM   
ckinv368

 

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Well, I've been out of comission since Friday at the CT Texas Offline III in Galveston---let me tell you, good times were had by all for sure!!

It appears that while I was away the malolactic really started going to town on my barbera. And it appears to still (slowly, very slowly) be working on my cab kit as well. Was going to rack the cab this week, but may let it sit for another week or two, just to see how things go.

Primary fermentation on the viognier seems to be completely done (last brix measurement I made was right around -1 brix), which is surprising considering I started out around 30 brix---enough to produce 17% alcohol. Not ideal, but that's what the grapes were when I got them. Will rack tonight, then pass out from the long (and great) CT Offline weekend!

Glad everyone else's wine is coming along well it seems. No worries re: the solid bung that was blown out of the top of the carboy---a little air probably won't kill the wine at this point, and it will produce enough carbon dioxide to protect it long-term. But I agree with the comment that air locks are your friend---have bought a few extra, just in case I need one in a pinch. And the fact they tell you what your wine is doing is also really handy.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/21/2011 9:55:45 AM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

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Ok, so I moved the Syrah from the basement where it had been chillin' at about ~45 F to the foyer for a warm up ~70 F to see if something else would happen. After ~10 hours I checked it this morning and it had "grown" beyond it's neck fill level air space and had created this in the ferm-lock.

2 of the three carboys did this, and the other still had a bit of space beneath the bung. My conclusion, the 20-25 temp F rise caused the liquid to expand beyond "full". http://www2.volstate.edu/CHEM/Density_of_Water.htm Forgot that property of liquids... oops. Shouldn't be a problem since the ferm-lock was filled with sulfite water, but it's just another lesson learned in the chemistry lab that is home winemaking.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/21/2011 5:11:04 PM   
ckinv368

 

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I hear that: when I was doing a cold extended maceration on my barbera, I had to use frozen gallon jugs of water to keep the wine cool / cold. Well, I made sure to empty a good amount of water out prior to freezing, kept the cap loose to allow the air to escape, etc. So I thought I was good to go.

Came home one day to switch out jugs and found that the cap on one of them (which had been securely fastened) had popped off and was floating in the wine. And the jug was tilted at an angle so that the mouth was almost even with the wine. Worse still, the water inside was tinted red. I FREAKED OUT (just a little).

Good thing is that I don't think much water escaped into the wine. The pH of the two buckets was still almost identical (the way it was when fermentation started), and the water was not too terribly red---just a nice rose color. But it definitely scared me. Still not sure why it happened, but certainly worried I would lose 5.5 gallons of must out of the deal.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/21/2011 5:13:07 PM   
ckinv368

 

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Viognier update: started secondary fermentation last night (although it's more of a 1st racking since I'm not doing malolactic on the wine), and had my first chance to taste my creation. Pretty darn good, if I do say so myself. Still cloudy, but know that will settle out over time. Pretty excited, if I do say so myself! Another six months or so and we'll bottle!

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/22/2011 12:43:08 AM   
ckinv368

 

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Bad day for Barbera: So I had my barbera in two separate containers---a full 6 gallon carboy, then a full 1 gallon jug. I noticed some discoleration on the stopper for the jug, so I took it out to examine. I got a heavy whiff of rotten egg, which I believe was hydrogen sulphide. Lookign up the cause in a book, it seems hydrogen sulphide can be created when wine is left in contact with gross lees for too long a period of time. Looking at the gallon jug, it appeared that approximately 20% (at the bottom) was settled gross lees. Not a good thing. Had to ditch that batch.

As for the 6 gallon carboy: I took the airlock out, and noticed a similar scent, but much less potent. One wine book recommends several steps a person can take to get rid of hydrogen sulphide, starting with racking the wine off the lees and aerating. I started there. I racked the wine off of much fewer lees (than the gallon jug had), then cleaned and sanitized the original carboy and racked / aerated the wine back into that carboy. As well over a liter of volume was missing from the lees, I topped up with commercial cabernet ('09, California). Hopefully the cabernet will give the wine some structure and balance, and will also give some added protection against microbial threats (and maybe even help with the hydrogen sulphide issue).

We'll see what happens tomorrow. But it was not a good day for Barbera, that's for sure!!


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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/22/2011 6:35:20 AM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

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quote:

As well over a liter of volume was missing from the lees,


This little game of diminishing returns is how I ended up with carboys in just about every size produced, 3, 4, 5, 6 gallons and 1 gallons jugs. I've gotten pretty good at estimating how much space I'll lose from lees during racking and keep everything topped off to nearest gallon. Anything less than a gallon leftover I keep a few wine bottles sanitized and ready. Or into a glass for tasting.

This morning I checked all of my Riesling, at 0.5, 0.5 and 0.0 on my hydrometer but still bubbling frequently so not done with primary. It is tasting pretty dry but will finish as dry as it will go on its own, then cold stablize and do some taste trials before bottling to decide whether to add sugar or not.

When I untopped my Syrah, I had about a 2 ounce pour for tasting. Color not where I hoped, but nothing can be done about that. Good body, fruit and acids there but need rounding. When I gave my wife a taste she complained of smelling and tasting her infamous "feet" note, which I describe as tar, earth, dirt. In other words, it tastes like Syrah!

< Message edited by ChrisinSunnyside -- 11/22/2011 7:40:56 AM >


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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/22/2011 6:40:57 AM   
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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/22/2011 7:57:13 AM   
ckinv368

 

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Barbera seems happier this morning. Took the airlock / bung out and all I got was a slightly buttery whiff, which I think is probably in line with the conversion of the malic acid to lactic acid.

Now we'll see if all my work last night killed the malolactic process or not. It's entirely possible, with all the aeration, the fact I've now removed all / almost all of the lees, and the introduction of some new SO2 through the sanitation of the carboys / siphon / hose / funnel. Although, even if that's the case, I'm actually pretty ok with only partial malolactic (assuming it doesn't "wake up" in the bottle). Don't want to kill the acidity---just soften it a bit.

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RE: Warning: Don't Try this at Home - 11/22/2011 10:33:43 AM   
champagneinhand

 

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From: Upstate New York, California born.
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I have a couple of questions, being that I am new to the home wine-making? When I purchased malolactic conversion enzyme it cost $10.98 for such a tiny package. That seemed rather steep to me, but I purchased anyway. Secondly, does anyone have experience using the liquid oak as compared to the oak chips? I boiled my oak chips( heavy toast) to get them primed and used them during primary fermentation and again during malolactic fermentation, both done in a 6 gallon bucket designed for fermentation. My wine has been racked a total of 3 times because there is a lot of sedimentation on the reds for sure. Lastly, I was curious about how you clean your equipment. Hot soap and water work great for the buckets, bungs and airlocks, but I don't like using much soap at all with the carboys, since they are so hard to access the inside and be rid of any remaining soap particles. I favor scrubbing the outside of the carboy with hot soaped water, but when it comes to the interior, I rinse twice with scalding water, drain, then re-rinse with 1L of boiling water mixed with 1/2 cup of 10% hydrogen peroxide solution. After that has has been rinsed twice with hot water, I pour in almost 1 gallon of water that has been boiled with the equivalent of 1 crushed campden(PotMo). I don't rinse the carboy with this mixture at such a high temp, but after its cooled a bit. Finally one more rinse with hot tap water.

I know it sounds really, really anal retentive, but from my experience with cleaning a still's inside, any residual soap or any residue can lead to microbial growth, simply because it takes a good amount of time to clear all the humidity/ residual water because of the tiny openings and large capacity interiors. Anyway I am having such a good time with this, I have put in a request to get 3 gallons of late harvest Riesling from the finger lakes. While semi pricey at $25 per gallon, I figure that since it won't be harvested until the week after Thanksgiving, the high brix amber juice should be well worth the price. Any suggestions on which specific yeast strain to use on a high brix sticky, such as this? We have had several nights with temps outside dropping below 25F, so the sugar levels will almost be nearing that of an Ice wine, sans that neat texture. They don't harvest the grapes for ice wine until the last week of January and press at around 33F, but the grapes have to have been frozen solid prior. Those are some pricey gallons of juice, nearing $125. Out of my adult chemistry set price range, considering the likelihoods of botching the first try.

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(in reply to ckinv368)
Post #: 60
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