RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ?

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 9/15/2013 1:15:50 PM

ChrisinCowiche

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Argon is a pretty common industtial and welding gas. http://www.praxairdirect.com/Argon-/10152_10051_11529_-1_11505_11501_image_0_

Rigging the correct fitting for the Coravin might be the trick, but I'd wager buying a few hundred pounds at a time would be cheaper than 5 oz. at a time.

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 9/15/2013 3:06:46 PM

grizzlymarmot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: budh

Thanks for the info. So you are suggesting that first stabs will use more argon than later ones because of the volume of wine in the bottle, correct?

It all depends on what they mean by "pressurize" If that means just adding as much volume of air as will be poured then I think my theory is correct. But if each pour is done by attaining a certain pressure in the bottle then when there is more empty space in the bottle it will take a larger amount of gas on subsequent pours to compress the gas already present in the bottle.

The project is actually PH.D worthy as it combines a lot of tricky chemistry, engineering, and material science.

Everyone seems to take for granted that the cork characteristics are stable - maybe so. I guess some of the dry cork that the needle goes through gets exposed to the wine and then swells shut.

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Post #: 62

RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 9/15/2013 7:25:44 PM

Old Doug

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quote:

ORIGINAL: grizzlymarmot

quote:

ORIGINAL: budh

Thanks for the info. So you are suggesting that first stabs will use more argon than later ones because of the volume of wine in the bottle, correct?

It all depends on what they mean by "pressurize" If that means just adding as much volume of air as will be poured then I think my theory is correct. But if each pour is done by attaining a certain pressure in the bottle then when there is more empty space in the bottle it will take a larger amount of gas on subsequent pours to compress the gas already present in the bottle.

Assuming that the initial gas pressure in the bottle is the same, prior to each Coravin usage, and that each "pour" is the same volume, would it not be the same amount of gas required, with the exception for the argon that will dissolve in the wine?

I am assuming that the Coravin needle is just a thin, hollow tube, correct? So you first add pressure to the inside of the bottle, enough that the desired amount of wine can be dispensed, while leaving at least atmospheric pressure inside the bottle afterward, and also a bit more, to overcome the friction inside the needle that will resist the wine flowing out of the bottle, which is dependent on the bore of the needle and the viscosity of the wine. This is how I envision it.

Seems a bit awkward to me to be using the same needle bore for the argon and the wine, but no big deal for the purpose of discussing the Coravin itself. Anyway, with the exception of the argon that will be absorbed into the remaining wine in the bottle, it should be the same amount of gas to replace a given volume of wine removed, regardless of the final pressure inside the bottle, assuming that pressure is the same after each pour.

Question: What style of tip does the end of the Coravin needle have?

#1 is sharp, beveled, and curved, a so-called "non-coring" style, and I would think that would work best for puncturing the cork while damaging it the least possible amount.

< Message edited by Old Doug -- 9/15/2013 7:43:51 PM >

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Post #: 63

RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 9/15/2013 9:58:31 PM

Old Doug

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ChrisinSunnyside is correct about argon - easily obtainable from Airgas, Amerigas, Praxair, your local mom-and-pop welding supply, etc. Personally, I would not bother with Coravin, as the only critical thing here is the needle that will allow the wine to flow through it, while being thin enough to allow the cork to seal the hole it leaves. That too is not a problem, as long as Coravin's claim that the cork will indeed seal itself is true.

To hack this deal is absolute child's play. The most efficient way to do it, or just to get the same thing that Coravin promises, would include what Dave said:

quote:

ORIGINAL: champagneinhand

you would need a second needle

In the drawing, I'm including a needle for liquid flow that's long enough to reach all the way through the cork and down to the bottom of the bottle. It could be placed just above the bottom, or just above the sediment. Obviously, it would not have to be that long, and a much shorter needle could be used if one would tilt the bottle.

For work, we use needles that I'm sure are no thicker than the one Coravin uses. Other ones are much thinner yet, and that would be "B," which only needs to allow the passage of gas, for pressurization inside the wine bottle, or for evacuation if one would be refilling the bottle with liquid. We've got needles where the outside diameter is less than that of a human hair. Cork sealing would not be an issue, here. Connecting the lines to the needles is also not a problem. Luer connections are available, or compression fittings could be used, as with the 'Swagelock' style, or other methods yet. We routinely use lines that are 1/16 inch outside diameter, with the inside diameter being .03 inch, and that would suffice for the gas supply line.

In practice, the argon cylinder would have a valve on it, and then a pressure regulator installed, the line to needle B connecting to the regulator. An additional valve between the regulator and the bottle is probably advisable. Argon is put into the bottle through needle B, and liquid flows out of the bottle through needle A and into the wine glass. Argon from a supplier, as above, will be virtually free compared to Coravin's prices.

To add liquid to the bottle, it's pumped in through needle A, with needle B venting outside the bottle, rather than being connected to a gas supply.

I have no doubt that stuff like this is going on right now, and I'm wondering about the capsules on wine bottles. Needle A or Coravin's needle would make a noticeable hole in the top of the capsule if it's intact and on the bottle. Needle B can be so thin that an almost microscopic "tear" could be made, to get away from the round hole the needle would make, and to disguise it. From now on, if I see a capsule with a hole in it, or a cork with anything that looks like a needle might have been run through it, I'd be wondering...

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 9/15/2013 11:25:52 PM

champagneinhand

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Plenty of 16-18 gauge surgical stainless steel available too. Long needles used in everything from industry to veterinary. Argon is good stuff, as a noble gas that is heavier than air. I would definitely keep the needle a n inch of so away from the bottom to make sure you don't suck up any sediment and jam up your needle.

I'm sure OD and I could come up with our own system, as we like to play Dr. Frankenstein.

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 9/16/2013 1:24:21 PM

budh

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So, are you guys kicking yourself for not marketing this first? Wine toys must kinda be like golf equipment - there is a ready supply of us suckers who will try anything. That being said, I still love it. Would love it more if I didn't feel like I was getting gouged.
Doug, the needle design is actually none of the above. Its a conical shape that comes to a point in the center. Like a sewing needle, almost, with two small holes opposite each other just above the conical tip. That presumably avoids clogging.

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Post #: 66

RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 9/16/2013 2:37:48 PM

BobMilton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: budh

So, are you guys kicking yourself for not marketing this first? Wine toys must kinda be like golf equipment - there is a ready supply of us suckers who will try anything. That being said, I still love it. Would love it more if I didn't feel like I was getting gouged.
Doug, the needle design is actually none of the above. Its a conical shape that comes to a point in the center. Like a sewing needle, almost, with two small holes opposite each other just above the conical tip. That presumably avoids clogging.

Or one hole for the argon going in, and one for the wine going out?

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 9/16/2013 3:30:08 PM

Old Doug

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quote:

ORIGINAL: budh

So, are you guys kicking yourself for not marketing this first?

Bud, sounds like a lot of work to develop the thing and market it. I'd rather just ponder stuff.

Never really thought about it - if anything, just felt, subconsciously, that the cork would get messed up if anybody ran something through it that was big enough to allow wine to get out of the bottle.

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 9/16/2013 9:11:29 PM

budh

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quote:

Or one hole for the argon going in, and one for the wine going out?

I don't think so. It's one hollow tube. I believe the gas goes in first while pushing the lever, then you release and the wine comes out. I think the tube only handles one direction at a time.

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Post #: 69

RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 9/17/2013 8:50:17 AM

BobMilton

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OK, I've never seen one so wasn't sure how they did it. Now I know, thanks.

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 10/8/2013 7:12:11 PM

ob2s

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Received my CV on 8/6. Immediately pierced an Alexander Valley cab (2007) and Rotie cellars VdP. The Cab will be opened in a year, stay tuned, but the Rotie I opened today. Far from emulating a Vin de Pays, the VdP @ $21 is a like a super Cote du Rhone. GSM. Anyway bottom line is that it tasted great on 8/6 91 points and I put it on its side as CV suggests. The cork is high quality and dense, which is in CV's favor. On 10/8 it is EXACTLY the same. 91 points. CV 1 : O2 0

< Message edited by ob2s -- 10/8/2013 7:15:54 PM >

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 10/8/2013 9:20:48 PM

Eric

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quote:

ORIGINAL: budh

quote:

Or one hole for the argon going in, and one for the wine going out?

I don't think so. It's one hollow tube. I believe the gas goes in first while pushing the lever, then you release and the wine comes out. I think the tube only handles one direction at a time.

That is exactly correct.

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 10/9/2013 4:48:07 PM

ob2s

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CV odd experience: Tried to pierce a 1976 Auslese, slowly, and the needle pushed the cork all the way in :-( Guess I'll be drinking that mofo TONIGHT, which is fine despite leakage and plenty of O2 creeping in over the years. Was hoping to share it. Maybe I'll nitrogen it and refrigerate.

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 10/10/2013 1:06:55 PM

budh

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I had a similar (but opposite) experience - the cork started coming out while withdrawing the needle. Only an 05, but the cork did seem pretty loose. So I guess you ought to keep an eye on it and hold the cork down to be safe.

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Post #: 74

RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 10/15/2013 6:44:45 AM

pheck

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As Coravin is not available in Europe (Germany), I contacted them for learning about their plans for international delivery. After now 2 weeks they come back with the reply: International shipment is now available - rates are available at checkout. After doing this, I was shocked by the rate: $149 for shipment!

So I think, if they will not find a distributor in Europe, unfortunately their product will stay a U.S. - only product...

Ciao Peter

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 10/15/2013 9:20:33 AM

ob2s

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Ich würde gerne eine Coravin nach Opelville im April bringen (in meinem Gepaeck), aber unser FAA NEIN sagt...

quote:

ORIGINAL: pheck

As Coravin is not available in Europe (Germany), I contacted them for learning about their plans for international delivery. After now 2 weeks they come back with the reply: International shipment is now available - rates are available at checkout. After doing this, I was shocked by the rate: $149 for shipment!

So I think, if they will not find a distributor in Europe, unfortunately their product will stay a U.S. - only product...

Ciao Peter

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 10/15/2013 10:03:09 AM

pheck

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@ob2s - will be in NYC early December and also thought about buying one - but the transport of the argon gas cylinders is - as you mentioned - the problem.
Will check, if I can find a carrier who offers shipping via a container vessel...

Ciao Peter

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Post #: 77

RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 11/3/2013 10:57:41 PM

geppetto

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Here is a little update on the bottle of 2004 Errazuriz Viñedo Chadwick that I first Coravin'ed mid-August. After 2.5 months, the second pull was identical, as far as I could tell from my notes. I'll wait another few months and compare the last third of the bottle with a fresh bottle and we will see what we have. So far, I am very impressed!

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 11/3/2013 11:16:26 PM

ob2s

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I poked a 2012 Karthaeuserhof Riesling in August, then again in Sept and opened it yesterday and found that the gas pressure pushed out some droplets of liquid. The wine was perfect, but young riesling are pretty resilient. Other tests are good so far.

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 11/4/2013 4:16:46 AM

dbg

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I've been a happy user for a few months now.

If you find the cork getting pushed in as you insert the needle, you're dealing with a significantly compromised cork and may be better off just removing it and finishing the bottle at one go if possible. Similarly, if the cork starts to come out or wine starts to leak around the cork when you push the lever to inject gas, the cork seal was probably close to shot to begin with.

If you find excess pressure in the bottle after removing the needle or when finally popping the cork, you must be leaving excess argon in the bottle. I'm not sure how that happens and I have yet to experience it. If I wait for the stream to dwindle and stop, I figure pressure in the bottle should be pretty much equal to atmospheric. If I turn the bottle upright before the wine stream completely peters out, I get a tiny puff of argon exiting the spout as the wine level drops below the level of the needle in the bottle, again equalizing the pressure. Can someone who has experienced this excess pressure try to explain how they think this happens?

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 11/4/2013 6:11:08 AM

Hollowine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dbg

I've been a happy user for a few months now.

If you find the cork getting pushed in as you insert the needle, you're dealing with a significantly compromised cork and may be better off just removing it and finishing the bottle at one go if possible. Similarly, if the cork starts to come out or wine starts to leak around the cork when you push the lever to inject gas, the cork seal was probably close to shot to begin with.

If you find excess pressure in the bottle after removing the needle or when finally popping the cork, you must be leaving excess argon in the bottle. I'm not sure how that happens and I have yet to experience it. If I wait for the stream to dwindle and stop, I figure pressure in the bottle should be pretty much equal to atmospheric. If I turn the bottle upright before the wine stream completely peters out, I get a tiny puff of argon exiting the spout as the wine level drops below the level of the needle in the bottle, again equalizing the pressure. Can someone who has experienced this excess pressure try to explain how they think this happens?

I don't have a Coravin (yet) but as I read your last paragraph nothing seems wrong. I'm sure there is some significant level of geeky calculations that could explain exactly using Boyle's Law (Pressure relation to Volume and Temperature). If you stop pouring before the stream has stopped, you are effectively interrupting the equalization process and you should expect some amount of gas to come out of the spout as it is equalizing pressure inside the bottle to atmospheric. If this didn't happen, you'd have pressure under the cork and it would probably loosen the cork, cause seepage when sideways, or come out exactly the same the next time you punctured it.

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 12/5/2013 8:37:40 PM

budh

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Just an update on my Coravin usage. I've had it for four months. The first two argon canisters I used didn't seem to get the advertised "mileage", but the third one certainly did. I used it 21 times, for a total of approximately 72 ounces. They advertise three bottles, but I assume that means four or five glasses per bottle, and not using the Coravin for the last glass - so maybe about 55-60 ounces. I'm taking a WSET Level 3 course over 16 weeks, and each week involves studying a different wine region. The Coravin has been great for tasting 2 or 3 ounces of several bottles of wine from the particular region. Homework was never so much fun! I must admit to being nervous about how some of these stabbed bottles will fare in a year or more. But so far, so good...

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 12/6/2013 8:39:59 AM

nkolsen

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I have experimented with the coravin over several weeks. After drawing a glass, two, or three from several bottles, I have noticed a distinct lack of a "pop" when subsequently pulling a cork. What causes a cork to pop when opening a bottle ? Is the lack of a "pop" in a coravin tapped cork a concern when laying down a bottle with a punctured cork ?

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Post #: 83

RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 12/6/2013 8:57:14 AM

Old Doug

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The "pop" is due to a differential in pressure between the air outside the bottle, and the gases inside the bottle. If the Coravin is supposed to be leaving the bottle positively pressurized, the cork's permeability as far as gases would slowly let the pressure equalize, no?

When there is not a higher pressure inside the bottle (Champagne and some other wines do have a higher pressure, up to 6 atmospheres, from the dissolved carbon dioxide), and a bottle is full of "still" wine, the gas space is usually quite small. As the cork is being removed, the gas space increases, which I assume would mean a pressure decrease until the cork clears the lip of the bottle. At that point, we are hearing the "pop" from air rushing into the bottle. This is all predicated on the pressure inside the bottle starting out the same as that of the outside atmosphere.

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 12/7/2013 11:56:50 PM

MindMuse

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I Coravin-ed a 2010 La Macchiole Bolgheri Rosso and retried it two months later. It seemed perfectly fresh. So far, very impressive.

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 12/8/2013 8:24:38 AM

dbg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nkolsen

I have experimented with the coravin over several weeks. After drawing a glass, two, or three from several bottles, I have noticed a distinct lack of a "pop" when subsequently pulling a cork. What causes a cork to pop when opening a bottle ? Is the lack of a "pop" in a coravin tapped cork a concern when laying down a bottle with a punctured cork ?

When you pull the cork on a new bottle a vacuum develops between the inside end of the cork and the surface of the wine as the cork starts to move. When the cork finally comes out the pressure suddenly equalizes, resulting in the "pop." In a half-empty bottle, one that's been Coravin accessed, the pressure differential that develops as the cork moves out is much less because the volume change is a much smaller percentage of the gas volume in the bottle. A small pressure differential when the cork comes out means no "pop."

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 1/7/2014 6:49:52 PM

ltaroli

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Why not use a screen when pouring to remove sentiment. You could also use a vinturi aerator.

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Post #: 87

RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 1/7/2014 7:40:46 PM

champagneinhand

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JJB advertised the corvine at $299 delivered, with 2 additional gas canisters, but I just can't see it for anything but studying for Somm training or such. I have wondered about the needle, and like reading this thread. It seem that a double tube within a tube, one for gas, extremely narrow and the other for returning liquid, with the ideal tip, would be the best solution. I am wondering how many other companies are watching this direct to consumer system. Argon systems in general are nothing new. Many have been in the Wine Enthusiast catalogs and Commercial set-ups for years. I think its interesting that the Coravin lays sideways, but need more input. Thanks for putting your thoughts into this. I think I'm too much of a lush to just do one glass or two of anything.

Its normal for all gas cylinders and aerosols to go ground since before 9/11. Bear repellent and such must be purchased in Mendoza or Alaska if one needs these things when traveling/mountaineering. Too much risk of bad people filling extinguisher cylinders with the wrong gasses and then bang-bang. Bad stuff!

< Message edited by champagneinhand -- 1/7/2014 9:05:40 PM >

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 1/7/2014 8:32:54 PM

Hollowine

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Got a Coravin for Christmas.

So far I've been happy with it, I've used it 6-8 times. My plans are to primarily use it for desert wines I don't want to open up solo, and for older wines that I want to consume over 2-3 days but want to control the air exposure as much as I can. Yeah, I may try to follow some bottles over several months, but I'm just not that disciplined to geek out about the quantitative side of it right now.

What I have noticed, quite annoyingly, is this. They advertise that you should tilt the bottle and then "charge" a 2 sec burst of Argon to begin the pour. I've noticed on two different wines (2001 Pio Cesare Barolo and 2002 Basel Cellars Cab) that the older corks do not like the long charge...I had wine push out between the cork and needle on both..one it literally squirted out. So with older corks, I'm doing 1/4 sec charges, and letting the pressure equalize.

I think this is just a factor of the cork media and the fact that it is not so pliable. I can live with the dispensing challenge, but I have lower confidence in a long term re-sealing of these older corks. Again, I'm going for drinking over a span of 3-7 days, so in that regard, I'm not concerned, but if I were looking at taking a nip of a '82 Mouton, I'd probably not be thinking of following it over the course of 4 years...

As with everything, bottle variation, provenance, etc are going to be the x factors in any "scientific" analysis...but so far I'm happy and having fun with it...

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RE: Coravin - Does it Truly Work ? - 1/7/2014 10:38:03 PM

recotte

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I have to admit that I'm really intrigued by this, but the price point is a bit higher than what I would like to see, especially given the ongoing cost of replacement cylinders. I believe I saw a rumor that there might be some kind of deal with Berserkerdays, which I'll check out, but unless it's a steep discount, I'll continue to sit on the sidelines. I do enjoy reading the different experiences of those using it, so keep 'em coming!

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