Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep...

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Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep...

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Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 1:56:08 PM

dbp

Posts: 59
Joined: 1/17/2008
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

I spend a lot of time on Cellar Tracker.. I mean, A LOT! I sit there and stare at the reports all day long, organizing my cellar in various different ways, looking at other peoples notes in different ways. I LOVE it. It definitely has contributed hugely to my interest in this hobby, because I'm a nerd and love data. I've spent all morning, since 9am, playing with the new Grape Stories, and it almost makes me cry. And no... those aren't tears of joy. They are tears of frustration. The only advantage to this I can see is maybe I'll pay more attention to my wife instead of staring at cellartracker all day.

For me, it's the whole experience that's frustrating. Simple things, like when I search for wines and it brings up a page, I immediately hit page down to scroll (which is even more necessary now since everything takes 10 times the space)... guess what? Page down does nothing. Apparently the main window doesn't have the focus for some reason. I have to first click the mouse anywhere in the window, and then page down works. I've already posted some other gripes on the support forum... just how much wasted space there is, how much real estate everything takes up. The whole layout is very hard to read! How getting to the data isn't intuitive at all. I figured out the original design in minutes. If I wanted to find something that I didn't know existed, I knew what paths to go down to get there. This new interface has confused me for hours.

What I loved about cellartracker was how simple the interface was, and how easy it was to get at the raw data. Sure there were some things I wanted it to do that it couldn't (including some of the social things), but the raw data was all there, and when I clicked on something it did exactly what I expected. I loved it. When I heard about the redesign i was definitely fearful that this would go away... when I watched Eric's demo video I actually had some hope again. It looked slick. But my experience has just been frustrating. Every time I think clicking on something will bring up one thing, I get something totally unexpected.

I know this is just beta software, and I know how that goes. I'm a software engineering manager, so we're releasing beta software all the time. I also used to be in Software QA (and still manage that team). I also know how important that initial reaction is with a customer when he first uses the software. Usually it's accurate for how his experience is going to be. However, I fear that while all the data is there, the redesign seems to have taken my joy out of using cellartracker. Yes, I can do all the same things. I can even do some additional things. However, everything that I do is slower, and harder to read. I can't figure out what half this stuff means. Things like my page-down/focus issue can be fixed. But so much has already been invested in this interface that I doubt that will be "fixed".

Also, everyone else seems to be loving it... so what's wrong with me? *shrug* Yes, I too LOVE Eric for investing so much time in this... cellartracker is very important to me. Probably an unhealthy amount.

The biggest bummer for me is that Eric has said that he only plans on keeping the old site around for a few months until everyone is converted over. Since it's all using the same back-end data, I wish both sites could co-exist, and we could choose an interface... like skins or something.

Okay... I'm done venting. Thank you Eric, for all the time you've put into this. I just wish I could enjoy it as much as some of the others seem to be. I'm sure I'll get used to it, and I'll learn to deal with all the little idiosyncrasies... but ideally, I hope you can create a view that is as simple and obvious as the original cellartracker was.

David

< Message edited by dbp -- 2/27/2010 2:01:51 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 2:01:53 PM

khmark7

Posts: 11420
Joined: 7/6/2008
From: Chicago suburbs
Status: offline

To be honest I haven't looked at the new design today. Simple is good. For now I'm going to wait and let the bugs get worked out.

(in reply to dbp)

Post #: 2

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 2:09:47 PM

JohnNezlek

Posts: 1191
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester. VA
Status: offline

David,

I am with you. Why not have the option to use the existing interface. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and my interface was not broke.

John

_____________________________

Too many wines, too little time.

(in reply to dbp)

Post #: 3

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 2:20:54 PM

djseiler

Posts: 145
Joined: 2/27/2010
From: Anahiem Hills, CA
Status: offline

Change is good. Managed change is better. I spend a lot of time on CT also (apparently not as much time as most). I also am more comfortable with the old format. True there is a lot of new eye candy on the new format. While I adjust, however, it is simply distracting.

(in reply to dbp)

Post #: 4

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 2:22:40 PM

GoodToGrape

Posts: 1260
Joined: 12/8/2008
From: Chicago
Status: offline

FWIW, my take on the subject is this. My old Blackberry was shot...dropped too many times, and a couple of years out of date. The company gave me a new one, new model, new functionality, the works. I spent the first 3 days cursing the thing. Then, after about a week I turned the corner and now I can't even imagine going back to the old Blackberry.

It's new to me...it's unfamiliar...it's going to take some time. I'm going to give it the requisite week before I throw in the towel.

(in reply to dbp)

Post #: 5

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 2:32:27 PM

JohnNezlek

Posts: 1191
Joined: 12/14/2006
From: Gloucester. VA
Status: offline

Change may be inevitable, but it is not good de facto. One of the problems with many industries is the belief that change, per se, is good. I am not certain how the new interface will work. I have looked at it only briefly. The interface I use now meets my needs.

I should add that I am not opposed to change per se. I am a professor who specializes in advanced statistical analyses, and I travel internationally to give workshops to help people to change what they do. Sometimes, I also tell them to keep doing what they are doing when what they are doing is what is best. New is not always better.

We will see how all this goes down with the new interface.

John

_____________________________

Too many wines, too little time.

(in reply to djseiler)

Post #: 6

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 2:53:03 PM

deb293

Posts: 1051
Status: offline

The site feels like more of a social networking site than a database site. Homepage features popular community wines in a price range....possibly of limited interest to many who are more interested in simply managing their own cellars.

It's a tired cliche that "people don't like change." Lots of folks enjoy change if it's change for the better. The jury's still out, but given that it's a beta version, patience seems the order of the day for now. Perhaps at some point there will be a true classic interface, so one can get one's data to look like the original version.

< Message edited by deb293 -- 2/27/2010 2:55:10 PM >

(in reply to dbp)

Post #: 7

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 3:02:49 PM

dannykoz

Posts: 60
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline

I HATE to throw fuel on this fire, because Eric is my true hero for providing the wine drinking community with so much pleasure with buying, drinking and collecting wine. However, I too am saddened by the difficulty in seeing the most important data to me in a single view, where the eye can easily scan the data. The lack of a column for the drinking window is the most problematic for me, since it's the way I scan down my collection. You can't even see DW in the individual bottle view, and in the default cellar view, it's hidden under the number of bottles and price. YIKES. I know I can do other report types to get what I want, but I want to be able to scan down the main view and find what I'm looking for. I'm sure there will be lots of updates coming, but I too wonder when and if I'll get used to the new version.

(in reply to deb293)

Post #: 8

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 3:14:09 PM

deb293

Posts: 1051
Status: offline

Switch to the "classic" view and you will get your drinking windows (little toggle buttons upper right...)

(in reply to dannykoz)

Post #: 9

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 3:14:26 PM

dannykoz

Posts: 60
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline

I also don't understand why I have the barcode in the main view, which is useless in my opinion, but not the price and value, often the way I pick wines for certain occasions. I so at a loss. I can't find any of the most important bits of info!!!

(in reply to dannykoz)

Post #: 10

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 3:17:32 PM

dannykoz

Posts: 60
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline

Thanks Deb. Also, doesn't it seem odd that the "pending delivery" text is there, but faintly, on every wine. That doesn't make sense to me!

(in reply to dannykoz)

Post #: 11

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 3:19:30 PM

deb293

Posts: 1051
Status: offline

Ditto. I think there are some issues with the pending deliveries feature. I got two error messages trying to set it to "individual bottles." Also, pending deliveries is still favoring purchase date, rather than delivery date, although it can be forced to display correctly.

< Message edited by deb293 -- 2/27/2010 3:22:15 PM >

(in reply to dannykoz)

Post #: 12

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 3:24:10 PM

rjonas

Posts: 371
Joined: 11/5/2006
From: Newcastle, WA
Status: offline

I'm assuming that when people first started using CellarTracker, there was some ramp up time in figuring it out how it worked and getting it set up the way you wanted to use it...

Grape Stories is all of 6 hours old... and it's a beta... Really? Lighten up folks...

I have no doubt that for those items/tasks that we've grown accustomed to and are not immediately available or obvious how they translated over to Grape Stories, Eric will listen to reasonable pleas for updates/changes.

Let's have some respect for the amount of blood, sweat and tears he's put in to this venture.

_____________________________

I'm not as think as you drunk I am!

(in reply to dannykoz)

Post #: 13

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 3:33:16 PM

dbp

Posts: 59
Joined: 1/17/2008
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rjonas
I'm assuming that when people first started using CellarTracker, there was some ramp up time in figuring it out how it worked and getting it set up the way you wanted to use it...

Actually, if you read my original post, you'll see that I had very little trouble finding what I needed. I found the original interface very intuitive. Not so with the new one. Initial impressions are very important for user interface design. If a design is intuitive, it doesn't take much "learning." I'll agree that some of my opinions may be tainted due to the behavior of the old site, which I liked, but a good design is easy to figure out regardless of how new it is.

Also, quite obviously there will be updates and changes. People do understand that this is beta software... beta, however, specifically implies it's looking for user feedback. That's what we have here. There seems to be some frustrations. All the data is there, and I hope Eric can re-structure it to be as readable as the old site. Hence the feedback.

I think everyone respects what Eric has done. He has revolutionized my wine hobby. As I said, I LOVE cellartracker. That said, just because someone I like has put tons of effort into something doesn't mean that it should, by default, please the masses.

David

(in reply to rjonas)

Post #: 14

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 3:53:44 PM

fingers

Posts: 8245
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dbp

All the data is there, and I hope Eric can re-structure it to be as readable as the old site. Hence the feedback.

I think everyone respects what Eric has done. He has revolutionized my wine hobby. As I said, I LOVE cellartracker. That said, just because someone I like has put tons of effort into something doesn't mean that it should, by default, please the masses.

David

Amen +1

(in reply to dbp)

Post #: 15

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 3:57:09 PM

khmark7

Posts: 11420
Joined: 7/6/2008
From: Chicago suburbs
Status: offline

Where can you go to view recent tasting notes on your own wines, much like the bottom of the original homepage?

(in reply to fingers)

Post #: 16

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 3:59:07 PM

hankj

Posts: 4672
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

For me the only issue is speed. I can learn the new interface.

Right now it seems like there is a little bit too much lag in the speed (outside of figuring out the new flow of it). If in the end I can do more on it, and faster, then great!

< Message edited by hankj -- 2/27/2010 4:11:22 PM >

_____________________________

There are those who'd call us a bunch of sots but we don't see ourselves like that. We see ourselves as hobbyists. - Kevin Barry

(in reply to dbp)

Post #: 17

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 3:59:48 PM

PMDias

Posts: 292
Joined: 5/11/2009
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Status: offline

I love the functionality of CellarTracker - a finished product of Eric's labor. For the moment, I am uncomfortable with GrapeStories - an acknowledged work-in-progress. I have no doubt that Eric will work out the kinks, and I think that's the hope of everyone who's posted on this thread, whether or not they liked the new interface.

Or I may be wrong: all those who hope Eric fails hideously raise your hand!

See? All Love, All The Time, is our motto.

(in reply to dbp)

Post #: 18

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 3:59:50 PM

fingers

Posts: 8245
Joined: 8/26/2006
From: Santa Ana, CA
Status: offline

From Home page, look under Popular Wines, Recently Reviewed, Tasting Notes on My Wine Only

It's a 3-step process. And I don't like it....... yet

(in reply to khmark7)

Post #: 19

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 4:05:37 PM

PMDias

Posts: 292
Joined: 5/11/2009
From: Philadelphia, Pa
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

From Home page, look under Popular Wines, Recently Reviewed, Tasting Notes on My Wine Only

It's a 3-step process. And I don't like it....... yet

That's where that went! Bless you, O great and wise fingers.

To be fair, that means it has gone from a two-step to a three-step process, which isn't much. How I feel about that is largely going to depend on whether there's something of value I can take from that extra step, like additional reports. One thing about CT, I have never figured out how people generate some of the reports I hear mentioned in the Forum. So if that comes closer to the foreground, that's all win.

I'm guessing many of the changes are going to involve that sort of trade-off. Or can be made to, at any rate.

(in reply to fingers)

Post #: 20

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 5:15:22 PM

pkbackman

Posts: 55
Joined: 6/29/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dbp

I spend a lot of time on Cellar Tracker.. I mean, A LOT! I sit there and stare at the reports all day long, organizing my cellar in various different ways, looking at other peoples notes in different ways. I LOVE it. It definitely has contributed hugely to my interest in this hobby, because I'm a nerd and love data. I've spent all morning, since 9am, playing with the new Grape Stories, and it almost makes me cry. And no... those aren't tears of joy. They are tears of frustration. The only advantage to this I can see is maybe I'll pay more attention to my wife instead of staring at cellartracker all day.

For me, it's the whole experience that's frustrating. Simple things, like when I search for wines and it brings up a page, I immediately hit page down to scroll (which is even more necessary now since everything takes 10 times the space)... guess what? Page down does nothing. Apparently the main window doesn't have the focus for some reason. I have to first click the mouse anywhere in the window, and then page down works. I've already posted some other gripes on the support forum... just how much wasted space there is, how much real estate everything takes up. The whole layout is very hard to read! How getting to the data isn't intuitive at all. I figured out the original design in minutes. If I wanted to find something that I didn't know existed, I knew what paths to go down to get there. This new interface has confused me for hours.

What I loved about cellartracker was how simple the interface was, and how easy it was to get at the raw data. Sure there were some things I wanted it to do that it couldn't (including some of the social things), but the raw data was all there, and when I clicked on something it did exactly what I expected. I loved it. When I heard about the redesign i was definitely fearful that this would go away... when I watched Eric's demo video I actually had some hope again. It looked slick. But my experience has just been frustrating. Every time I think clicking on something will bring up one thing, I get something totally unexpected.

I know this is just beta software, and I know how that goes. I'm a software engineering manager, so we're releasing beta software all the time. I also used to be in Software QA (and still manage that team). I also know how important that initial reaction is with a customer when he first uses the software. Usually it's accurate for how his experience is going to be. However, I fear that while all the data is there, the redesign seems to have taken my joy out of using cellartracker. Yes, I can do all the same things. I can even do some additional things. However, everything that I do is slower, and harder to read. I can't figure out what half this stuff means. Things like my page-down/focus issue can be fixed. But so much has already been invested in this interface that I doubt that will be "fixed".

Also, everyone else seems to be loving it... so what's wrong with me? *shrug* Yes, I too LOVE Eric for investing so much time in this... cellartracker is very important to me. Probably an unhealthy amount.

The biggest bummer for me is that Eric has said that he only plans on keeping the old site around for a few months until everyone is converted over. Since it's all using the same back-end data, I wish both sites could co-exist, and we could choose an interface... like skins or something.

Okay... I'm done venting. Thank you Eric, for all the time you've put into this. I just wish I could enjoy it as much as some of the others seem to be. I'm sure I'll get used to it, and I'll learn to deal with all the little idiosyncrasies... but ideally, I hope you can create a view that is as simple and obvious as the original cellartracker was.

David

Big +1

It seems my cellar management tool has been replaced with cork'd with a better database. Ugh

(in reply to dbp)

Post #: 21

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 5:31:40 PM

dsGris

Posts: 4712
Joined: 8/31/2009
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

I posted most of my comments over on the support forum, but will echo the above posts. As Deb says it looks like a social networking site which in fine for that purpose. I want an easily accessed tracking site for the cellar. That means concise information with minimal clicks. I really enjoyed the old CT and vote to keep a simple version for the tracking. The networking side can appeal to those with that desire.

_____________________________

DennisG
Granpa Wino

(in reply to PMDias)

Post #: 22

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 5:46:19 PM

Eric

Posts: 17316
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

From Home page, look under Popular Wines, Recently Reviewed, Tasting Notes on My Wine Only

It's a 3-step process. And I don't like it....... yet

And now that you have done it it is a 0-step process as it sticks...

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to fingers)

Post #: 23

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 5:48:01 PM

Eric

Posts: 17316
Joined: 10/10/2003
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hankj

For me the only issue is speed. I can learn the new interface.

Right now it seems like there is a little bit too much lag in the speed (outside of figuring out the new flow of it). If in the end I can do more on it, and faster, then great!

Servers getting hammered today, huge traffic, new queries I need to speed up. i agree, way too laggy.

_____________________________

Cheers!
-Eric LeVine

http://twitter.com/cellartracker
http://facebook.com/cellartracker

(in reply to hankj)

Post #: 24

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 6:26:44 PM

J2K

Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/5/2008
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: offline

I'm just starting to explore the new site now.... but don't you have the option to continue using the old site if you wish?

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 25

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 7:00:59 PM

bgibbard

Posts: 825
Joined: 10/3/2004
From: Toronto, ON
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: J2K

I'm just starting to explore the new site now.... but don't you have the option to continue using the old site if you wish?

For a while, yes, but only for a transition period. After some months of running in parallel the old site will eventually be discontinued.

_____________________________

Brant Gibbard
Toronto, ON

(in reply to J2K)

Post #: 26

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 7:55:08 PM

deb293

Posts: 1051
Status: offline

I have one wine, '97 Solaia, that had a purchase price in CT (still there) that didn't migrate to GrapeStories. Moreover, I can not get the price to stick when I try to edit the single bottle information.

(in reply to Eric)

Post #: 27

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 8:03:04 PM

Hollowine

Posts: 7251
Joined: 7/25/2008
From: Hood River, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fingers

From Home page, look under Popular Wines, Recently Reviewed, Tasting Notes on My Wine Only

It's a 3-step process. And I don't like it....... yet

I'm finally getting some time to post some thoughts, and this was one of the most frustrating to me. I would go to CT (Old) 5-7 times a day and look at what people had posted on wines that I own. It took me a while of putzing around to finally find it when I started working with it today. It's there, but I liked the "In my face" there before.

(in reply to fingers)

Post #: 28

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 8:17:07 PM

Paul S

Posts: 3023
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: Singapore
Status: offline

Congratulations Eric, great work on the site!

Pottered around for an hour or so before deciding to post. Overall, I think it's pretty intuitive. Not as much as the less website, but given the additional functionality and the eye-candy, a worthwhile trade-off I think. Perhaps a "legacy" or "classic" view might be the way to go. Only thing that I am seriously missing is the "CellarTracker" name - why the change Eric?

(in reply to Hollowine)

Post #: 29

RE: Oh GrapeStories... how you make me weep... - 2/27/2010 8:18:14 PM

Hollowine

Posts: 7251
Joined: 7/25/2008
From: Hood River, OR
Status: offline

I didn't really get the chance to play around but 30 minutes today, being gone all week from the family meant I was in daddy mode all day and the one time I had GrapeStories open and starting to play, my 3 year old said "Daddy, you close 'puter"...

Like dbp, I'm a software guy, so in the first 10 minutes I had already mentally logged about 10 bugs that I'm sure Eric will have fixed before I find enough time to even report them, but I will start reporting them as I find them. Were they major...no, just indicative of beta software. I think the redesign has the potential to be a very good and valuable thing for the target audience, but I also think those of us who are pretty hard core about our wine and wine geekiness are only a portion of that target audience. It will take me a while through all the experimentation, tweeking of settings, and having choices "stick" as Eric puts it, before I feel I am efficient or entertained in my geekiness with the new site. I think it will come and I have personally committed to pushing hard to make the transition, but it doesn't mean I won't grumble about it along the way.

The important thing is to know that Eric, like any developer, needs feedback. If you experience something you would classify a "bug", the most important thing you can do is specifically try to duplicate the steps that caused the issue, then document them so Eric can debug it. If it isn't a bug, but just a pure usability issue, again take the time to write it down and draw attention to it. Hopefully in 6 months we will all be pleased with the results of our feedback and Eric's hard work.

(in reply to dbp)

Post #: 30