2016 Beaulieu Vineyard Cabernet Sauvignon Georges de Latour Private Reserve
Community Tasting Note
csimm wrote:
84 Points
Sunday, August 21, 2022 - A straight skinny minny, with a diluted and "way-overly-classical" fringe profile that has the body of a Gamay, the brains of a Pinot Gri, and the stamina of a Lambrusco. Cedar, strawberry, red cherry, and still water. This BV GdL is the Danny DeVito twin to just about every other 2016 Cabernet out of Napa.
...score higher if you enjoy COVID press conferences and faxing TPS reports.
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Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/21/2022 10:45:00 AM - Combined with the 2 Herman Stories, sounds like quite the enjoyable night of wine tasting!
Comment posted by csimm:
8/21/2022 10:48:00 AM - It was.....not ok.....
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/21/2022 10:57:00 AM - You’ll have to tell me the circumstances of that tasting sometime, but I’m making a wild stab that these weren’t wines you purchased. While, as you might guess, I’m more positive on the GdT than you (I haven’t had this vintage yet, but have a bottle or 2 sleeping somewhere) and haven’t had, nor will I seek out, the Herman Stories, it can be salutary every blue moon or so to drink something really crappy just to really appreciate the salutary effects of a great bottle and why we get so obsessed with this stuff.
Comment posted by csimm:
8/21/2022 11:09:00 AM - I appreciate any opportunity to drink any wine. ...And you are correct sir, I did not buy these wines, though I'm sure I have wines in my cellar that are just itching to disappoint me soon enough. But of course, these last few wines I did brief notes on are clearly not my jam, but that's ok. I'm sure someone else will speak his or her truth here soon enough and those looking to reaffirm their desire to seek out the BV will be reinforced to do so. I hope your experience here is..... better... :)
Comment posted by #1Winelover:
8/21/2022 5:07:00 PM - With a rating and review like that, I'm running out to my liquor store.
Comment posted by csimm:
8/21/2022 10:20:00 PM - Lol #1! Grab a bottle of this, pair it with a rice cracker and a stalk of celery, and rent The Piano and you’re all set for a fantastic evening.
Comment posted by Franken Berry:
8/22/2022 4:41:00 AM - Sounds like my two bottles would make an “impressive” gift to a neophyte friend, provided that I tell them to wait a few years;)
Comment posted by csimm:
8/22/2022 6:35:00 AM - “It just needs time.” And then when they open it a decade from now, just say, “Oh you must have missed it’s window.” :)
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/22/2022 7:13:00 AM - Cs, I haven’t a vintage of this post ‘10, and for my tastes, it tends to drink best in the 8-12 year window, so I don’t know if they’ve changed the profile, but if you don’t like that profile, you don’t, right? For me, these have been pretty consistent 92-93 point wines, but then, I tend to like the Berlinger PR even a bit more, and the ‘10 of that bottling was a sub-80 pointer for you as I remember. While our scoring differences aren’t so stark, you’re consistently well above me on Mike Smith and Kirk Venge wines. We agree on many wines, and when we don’t, we’ll always at least agree on “The Piano”. Vive le diference, and cheers!
Comment posted by csimm:
8/22/2022 8:09:00 AM - I look forward to trying someone else’s bottle in 2026. I’m happy to adjust my score accordingly as warranted. My personal take on the bottle I had was that it isn’t a timing issue. It tasted like a 8,400 case production wine that lacked all personality and was 100% boring. And whether the world wants to say it was an off bottle or it’s just a style thing or a timing thing or a root day or I should be taking more Thorazine and calm down… I’ll leave that to the peanut gallery to figure out. Using the prescribed theory that there are not great wines but only great bottles of wine… I’ll just say that this bottle was ..... not great.
The good news is you have some decent pro scores to provide solace. Jeb calls it world class juice; so there's that.
My palate has pulled away from Venge etc some years ago and I prefer more structure, acid, and terroir/site characteristics. Cocktail Cabs do little for me. But... strawberry water with a cinnamon stick in it just isn’t my thing either. And of course, just cuz I don’t like it doesn’t mean you can’t love it. Buy it by the truckload and enjoy!
....Put it next to a Macdonald and let me know how it compares 😁
Comment posted by csimm:
8/22/2022 8:44:00 AM - ....And for a more familiar comparative reference, a 2016 Tenuta Guado al Tasso Superiore I just had completely obliterated this BV. I know it's not a competition... but it kinda is.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/22/2022 9:06:00 AM - Alex’s ‘19 is the only Napa bottling of any producer, varietal and vintage I’ve given a perfect score to, and even at the larcenous price he lets it go at, is considerably more pricey than this (fwiw, I’ve gotten this, the Berlinger PR and Hewitts from my friend in the industry, who, alas, passed earlier this year), so not really a fair fight. My price on this was likely in the low $70s, about what I paid for Mike Smith’s 2015 Becklyn NV, and for me, even the worst GdL I’ve had beat that wine handily. While I haven’t had the Guado ‘16, as I think I mentioned, I recently bought a bottle, and considering both how I’ve felt about that bottling in the past and the quality of the vintage in Italy, I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if I agree with you that it beats the pants off the GdL. And while, alas, I haven’t the best of the best of Napa, or at least the most expensive, on an apples to apples basis that would also be my more secular call for Tuscany vs. Napa on a qpr basis. But as my dad used to say, that’s what makes horse racing, right?
Comment posted by csimm:
8/22/2022 9:17:00 AM - Indeed. You can bet on the GdT, and I'll bet on the GaT :)
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/22/2022 9:25:00 AM - Pretty sure my $ is on the Guado if that’s the choice. But Mike Smith, he’s all yours . . .
Comment posted by csimm:
8/22/2022 9:29:00 AM - Did Mike steal your lunch money in high school or something?
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/22/2022 9:51:00 AM - LOL! My quibble with him and Venge is sort of the opposite of yours with the GdL; too much rich, ripe fruit, vanilla, oak and alcohol. Our tastes, especially in Napa, are like a Venn diagram, with a large, shaded area of commonality, with a “classical” area where I’m on my own, and one on the opposite side (heavy metal to my classical?) where you, Mike and Kirk reign.
Comment posted by csimm:
8/22/2022 10:07:00 AM - Lol. Well, as mentioned, as much as I like and respect some of those folks who make wine in that 'category,' my current palate trajectory has gone more into the classical "shaded" area, though to me, this BV would be on the lunatic fringe of classicism, even by old-world BDX standards. Classic shouldn't mean diluted and boring... alas, I digress....
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/22/2022 10:25:00 AM - Careful or I’ll stick some Montelenas, Montebellos and Spottswoodes on you next time we meet! And it’s always good to challenge one’s assumptions, I think. The last Venge wine I had was a ‘16 B LPV, which I thought to be undrinkable out of the bottle, but after 4.5 hours of the air equivalent of a firehose, it was wonderful, even if not something I’d want to quaff every night. Still waiting for a Smith wine I like nearly that much.
Comment posted by bsumoba:
8/22/2022 1:21:00 PM - I have a couple more 97 GDTs because this is was the first bottle my wife and I had on our first date back in 08' so there is some nostalgia there. It is batting about .300 in terms of drinkable wine vs non-drinkable (whether it was oxidation or TCA) and even then, there was only one bottle that scored a 92 and some, I actually poured down the drain.
I've thought about giving BV Private Reserve another chance given the critic scores, but I think this TN solidified what I essentially had in my head which is, stick with what you know is good (Macdonald, VHR, Scarecrow, Eisele, Vice Versa, etc) and don't look back.
What might actually be the right play is to start buying more BXD.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/22/2022 1:59:00 PM - BS: I’m not sure it’s a fair fight putting the George against the labels you mentioned (I have different degrees of familiarity with them) as all are 2x to 4-5x, at least in the secondary market, the price. But around the GdL’s price point, I do prefer Hartwell, Riverain, Hewitt, Berlinger PR and several others, and going a step up the ladder, but generally still well below the names you mentioned, I like Ovid, Spottswoode, Peter Michael LP, and my new favorite, Quilceda Creek (again, with lots of others that can be thrown in). I’m also not sure, even as someone who appreciates older wines—check out what I drank a tasting on Friday, which was mostly wines from the mid to late 90s—that for all but the best vintages, the GdL has the chops to go that long without a meaningful drop off. I’d be the first to admit, that leaving aside my more “Old World” tastes than you and cs, you guys drink more expensive, and I’ll say better, wines than I do on an overall basis, but for me, the GdL is consistently solid, subject to my not having any vintages in the past 10-12 years. But hey, if I could be drinking a Mac, Colgin, Abreu or even Ovid every night, I’d just use the GdL for cooking! Cheers!
Comment posted by bsumoba:
8/22/2022 2:13:00 PM - I don't disagree with you SF. It is a bit unfair to compare GDT to those. But what I was pointing out was how much bottle variation I was finding in the GDT bottling. I get one that was 92/93 and think to myself that I cannot wait to open another bottle soon and then I get one that is just oxidized or has some TCA or just not good. In this price point, I prefer maybe Drinkward Peschon, Corison, or even Dominus Napanook which is cheaper than GDT and I often do not see the bottle variation in these. GDT can absolutely go the distance and has historically been known to do so, but I worry that the volume game of BV hurts the PR in terms of quality. That being said, I love old Napa. Just yesterday, I had an 05' Peter Michael Les Pavots and a couple years back, an 05' Araujo Eisele Vinyeard. Both were just great bottles. I also had issues with bottle variation in even the PM Les Pavots. I had a 99' that was phenomenal and then one that just didn't make it.
Comment posted by csimm:
8/22/2022 4:38:00 PM - I agree with B on the "don't look back" perspective. It's always fun to find a new producer and all, but the losses it often takes to get there with the sifting and hunting for the next best thing, only to be met with a "meh" response, is a grind... I know, I know...not always of course. Peaks and valleys I suppose.
I do feel like BDX is an avenue to take, but to get to the good stuff, I don't think it's any cheaper really. I know SF is all about Italy, which is great, and there are certainly gems in any region. So, I guess that's the trick. Money being a factor for most of us, it's always a challenge to find a great wine that doesn't just outright insult with some wacky tariff, but if you're looking for the best, you gotta hunt among the best I guess. (Yes, 'the best' is subjective etc etc).
All that said, I am finding personally that I'd rather have less wine with greater quality than have a bunch of lesser Tuesday night type wines. It doesn't necessarily help the wallet since I'm buying a lot less less but I'm buying more expensive, but I'm not in the game to "just drink wine" and have a bunch of wine I'll never touch and am not excited about. Who knows the right way to go. It also depends on people you socialize with too, as tasting events with themes are great fun. If you have baller friends, you gotta step up. haha.
Comment posted by Franken Berry:
8/22/2022 7:27:00 PM - Good discussion. I think it is fair to say that the first thing that is sacrificed when a winemaker pushes fruit extraction is terroir, or a sense of place. Just my observation.
It is also not surprising that there is greater chance of bottle variation with such large production. I mean you can’t possibly pick all that fruit at same time, get it all into tanks,etc. you will therefore introduce varying risks for premature oxidation, for one thing.
Comment posted by csimm:
8/22/2022 10:19:00 PM - Totally agree FB. Quality control has to have a breaking point on some level. It doesn’t mean all higher production wines aren’t good (even top shelf BDX make thousands of cases), and it doesn’t mean every single barrel “reserve” wine is going to be some boutique dream. But, you can often taste the “specialness” of some smaller production wines. Perhaps that’s an illusion, but there’s something to be said for quality as it relates to production levels.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/23/2022 6:05:00 AM - It’s always a pleasure having these discussions, even, or perhaps especially, when there’s not 100% agreement, and particularly with CT friends. Completely agree with you, FB, on overextraction, just as I do with an over dependence on oak and vanilla. The larger/smaller producer issue is a more open question for me (maybe for me as someone who’s worked in the corporate adjacent world for too long!). There is, for sure, more of a sense of individuality with smaller operations, but I actually think that there can be more rather than less variation there, as they may not have the systems in place for the kind of consistency a larger producer can produce by doing the same kinds of things at scale year in and year out. For me personally, drinking a mix of large and small producers, of different styles, varietals and price points, brings out my optimal wine drinking experience, but it sure would be nice to have the spend to just be able to toggle back and forth between Screagles and Harlans, or even the aforesaid Colgins, Abreus, MacDonalds and Eiseles (one of which I’m going to enjoy tonight!).
Comment posted by jonboy74:
8/24/2022 10:27:00 PM - Great discussion! CSimm I'll save one of my bottles to share w/ you in 10 yrs. Haven't had a sip of one yet, bought a few at the tasting room a couple years back to hold for a while and open when I meet up w/ those friends again in a few years. Will definitely put your name on one of those bottles!
Comment posted by jonboy74:
8/24/2022 10:27:00 PM - Great discussion! CSimm I'll save one of my bottles to share w/ you in 10 yrs. Haven't had a sip of one yet, bought a few at the tasting room a couple years back to hold for a while and open when I meet up w/ those friends again in a few years. Will definitely put your name on one of those bottles!
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/25/2022 6:14:00 AM - JB: still hoping we’ll have a chance to get together and taste, although I didn’t wait for you on the VV Platt. Found a couple of bottles and killed one. Really nice chard. Am sure we could find a good substitute, but certainly wouldn’t mind drinking again!
Comment posted by csimm:
8/25/2022 6:52:00 AM - jonboy- I’m in! I look forward to sharing, discussing, and geeking-out over it. I’ll bring a 2016 Macdonald for a comparative LOL (I know sf... not a fair fight and all.... I mean, I would hope that’s the case, otherwise I’ll really eat crow on my take on the BV!) :)
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/25/2022 7:13:00 AM - Cs: I look forward to you introducing me to *anything* at MacD’s list price point that can compare to it. As to the GdL, though, if you end up with bottle through some weird turn of circumstances, I will happily swap you my ‘15 Becklyn NV for it, which would be a fairer trade!
Comment posted by csimm:
8/25/2022 7:50:00 AM - Becklyn haha. Always the timeshare salesman…lol ... Just to pile on, I’ll say the Becklyn released at around $65 bucks or something in 2015 if I’m not mistaking. The retail for the BV GdL is almost twice that… If we’re talking fair fights.
I’ll take a Foremam (stylistically similar) or even Realm Bard or Bevan Ontogeny (both of whom I’ve chosen to be out of the game with now anyway) .. or even Quivet LPV (though the release price of that has jumped a little bit now) if throwing in the ultra modern players at that price point. I don’t buy from any of the aforementioned producers, but for the sake of conversation, that’s where I land in comparison to my recent BV experience.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/25/2022 8:04:00 AM - I’ve been lucky, from my perspective, to get my GdLs, along with Berlinger PRs and Hewitts, at employee prices, which for this was in the mid $70s, about what I paid for the Becklyn. I paid in the upper $80s for my Formans, and agree with you that I’d take those over the GdL. The Ontogeny, which I’ve had on a couple of instances, once with you in attendance, not so much, and at least in the secondary markets, are going for as much or more than the Formans, from what I’m seeing (I’ve liked some of Bevan’s other bottlings very much, but hard pass on that one). Yet to have a Realm, but liked the F-M you poured and the Hartwell ER I had, so it’s on my list to try, along with a few hundred other cuvées!
Comment posted by csimm:
8/25/2022 8:20:00 AM - I guess we will just have to put them all up in a lineup together and see what happens!
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/25/2022 8:28:00 AM - One way or another, none are what I’ll be bringing to our next wine meet, although if we were to have an approximately $100 retail get together, it would be hard to do much better than Forman for CA cabs. And fwiw, I’m drinking a ‘10 Clarendon Hills Hickenbottom cab, with the only listed retailer being in Aus and selling it for $90 but which I got for a bit over $20 (with minor label damage) which I’ll rate as highly as the last GdL I scored. So, while I’m reasonably favorable to GdL, I’m unlikely to be its pitchman anytime soon.
Comment posted by bsumoba:
8/25/2022 9:06:00 AM - I am down for any wine meet. Just need to know the theme and I can bring the wine. With the wine slowing down on wine for health reasons, I need an excuse to pop some of these wines.
Comment posted by csimm:
8/25/2022 9:09:00 AM - ...Sharing is caring! :)
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/25/2022 9:17:00 AM - B, I don’t know what else might be on the agenda, but we have something planned for 10/26 in the afternoon/evening in Napa. I know mid week can be hard, all the more so since you’re coming from another 60 miles further away than I and others. If you think you might be interested, please let me know. We can do it offline of CT. You can either let me know your email or I can give you mine here, but if the latter, I’ll ask you to send me an email when you get my comment so I don’t leave my email address hanging out on CT. Would be nice to meet since I sadly missed the June get together!
Comment posted by jonboy74:
8/26/2022 9:21:00 PM - Been a busy couple months, and the fun continues so I haven't been doing much socializing or wine tasting!
CSimm I'll gladly put one of my Kinsman's up against your MacD. Cult wine smackdown!
And for a $100 Napa challenge, I'd bring one of my 2014 EMH Sparkes Cabernet or a 2013 Special Selection. I'd be shocked if anyone can get near those at the $100 price point!
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/26/2022 9:32:00 PM - I’ll throw in a ‘13 Forman for the $100 category, a ‘15 Tynan MG for the cult. Let the games begin!
Comment posted by jonboy74:
8/26/2022 10:11:00 PM - We may need to lobby to get @liteitonfire down here for this, whenever we get it going!!
Comment posted by bsumoba:
8/26/2022 10:30:00 PM - If I'm partaking in a $100 dollar lineup tasting, I would add Detert, Mascot, Drinkward Peschon, and La Pelle to the mix. These kind of tastings are fun and would be a good thing to do for a lunch or afternoon event.
In that Macdonald, Tynan, Kinsman tasteoff, I'd probably throw in Bella Oaks or Impensata.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/26/2022 11:07:00 PM - We have a good bench in the Bay Area, too. I’m sure Aaron_Maxwell and WBW could add good choices. And if we’re bringing in outsiders, maybe mjp and Quiet Lion . . .
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/26/2022 11:07:00 PM - On the other hand, awful shame to be spitting any of this stuff . . .
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 12:11:00 AM - Holy Fk- I started reading this tread, took a nap, had to start back up at the top and then lost total interest while I engaged my 24th Coravin pull (had to use 2.5 cartridges on this one bottle) from 375 BV George de Latour here only to find out I had no idea what this thread was about. So does this summarize it:
1) CSIMM prefers Mad Dog 20/20, Zima, purple Passion and Boones Strawberry Hill (I think I read Strawberry delight) over BVGdL
2) SF built his fortune on empty bottles of BVGdL dating back to the 1870s
3) #1 Just drops a beat and hightails out of here
4) BS just wants to party with cool peeps and badass wine
5) JB loves some Puss-ie … wait can I use that word in reference to cats or is that banned? I can’t keep it all straight
6) there will be a huge bash in 4 years with Jeroboam and methuselah 2016 BVGdL that will be the fifth coming of The Symbol and drench us in Purple Rain?
Does that Sum it up correctly or should I re-read in the morning (which’s if anyone hasn’t lost interest in my note is now) when sober?
Would love to join October 26th but one of my favorite, chateaus is flying out for a dinner (PSA try the 2018) before it starts it’s beauty sleep) - Chateau Cos d’Estournel which I hope some of you will be able to join.
I feel like I should jump in on this whine… but the only time I have had GdL I… I…. Can’t remember.
QPR- I would jump at 2018 Gravette De Certan, recent Chateau Laroque, Malescot St Exuprey, 2016 Leoville Poyferre (and other vintages), Canon, Feytit Clinet, Calon Segur, Christopher Tynan one-offs, Tour St Christophe oh crap back to Bordeaux again… but in all fairness and deference to others I do keep an open mind and would be willing to taste someone’s Kinsman and Macdonald next to the BVGdL for the good of the cause.
Cheers gents!
Comment posted by bsumoba:
8/27/2022 12:52:00 AM - I'm so weird...I will practically blow my wad on badass wine and have no regrets doing it while at the same time bitch about how expensive New Zealand SB has gotten in the last years.
Wait...that's probably what happens in strip clubs in Las Vegas no? I can't quite confirm...never done it from my recollection.
Comment posted by #1Winelover:
8/27/2022 4:30:00 AM - Haha Lite - very funny and true.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/27/2022 6:50:00 AM - Lite: LOL. If 10/26 doesn’t work, we’ll keep trying. If we’re going outside of CA, I’d certainly want to throw in Grattamaco, Guado and Saffredi in the $100 ish category. I’d also nominate the DiCostanzo SVDs. In cult, at my fingertips, the ‘12 and ‘14 Ovids (I’ve poured the ‘12 for CS), the ‘16 VHR. Back to sorting out the 1870s Georges . . .
Comment posted by csimm:
8/27/2022 8:28:00 AM - Not sure how to unpack all this, though Lite did a pretty solid summary!
Just to twist the knife, and maybe my biases are showing, but I’d say that Kinsman and Mac (and perhaps Bella Oaks) are in a different category than Tynan MG (which I do love), Ovid, VV, etc... If nothing else, the aftermarket is generally double-ish (or at least notably elevated) on the K & M over the others. I know that’s not everything, but it’s something. Sure you could put Canon up against a VCC, but really the latter ‘should’ be the superior wine. Not to get tied up in “worth,” but if we are talking $100 class, and then, well, the next step up, there’s a pretty big sea of wine and quality/rarity between the $250 to $500 and then to $1K markers.
.... Maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about at all and I just wanted to be the 48th comment here...
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/27/2022 9:03:00 AM - Don’t disagree with you, cs, at least on a price basis (I haven’t tasted many of these wines so don’t have an informed opinion otherwise). As a baller, I’m pure D-league to you guys NBA All-Stars.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 10:14:00 AM - Yay we hit Fifty!!
I still hold to every wine I listed and could keep going on the <$110 wines. So let’s duel, however if we are doing a get together I like to do them with wines over $100 as it gives the ability to try X number of wines per bottle brought for the price of only one bottle. Like CSIMM I no longer apply to the cellar defenders and drink less overall but more great wines. It’s all funny math but I do love great comedy.
BS- what is SB from NZ you speak of? Is that the stuff I put in my pool to fight algae or what I use to etch glass?
Hugs to everyone this Saturday morning.
Comment posted by #1Winelover:
8/27/2022 10:42:00 AM - Let's hopefully not go to 100! That said, I would agree that only a few are special wines that are memorable after drinking. Anything Kinsman, Realm's good ole doctor and MacD are at the top of my list. I would probably add Fait Main LPV. The rest that are over $200 are more similar than dissimilar. I sure like them but my wallet always regrets it! A couple of $100ers that are my go to are: Trespass, Vermeil's Pickett Road, and B Cellars Ehrlich Vineyard. Please don't make fun of me for liking B Cellars. Everyone has their issues...
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 12:40:00 PM - #1 you crack me up. I have been known to enjoy a glass of Bcellars as it’s a buddies favorite- and I appreciate it more because it is. All of these comments are in fun, not to poke fun of, if that makes sense… although from the outside looking in we are a bunch of nerds overpaying for fermented grapes so there is that to ponder over out next $10,000 bottle of wine. Now add to that the amount of collective time and well… sad
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/27/2022 12:54:00 PM - I’d phrase it differently, Lite, and say . . . Lucky. Fortunate that we have the time and resources to put into something we care deeply about and not worrying about safe drinking water, staying clear of enemy combatants, etc. Also pretty amazing to have a forum where we can find others who are just as knowledgeable and passionate about something we all care deeply about, the likelihood of which, if left to pure chance, would be about the same as winning the lottery. Would our time be more beneficially spent if we used it to combat climate change, famine, etc. ? Ask me that when we get together and drink that $10k bottle of wine (which, alas, I won’t be the one to bring)!
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 12:59:00 PM - SF- well said. You don’t have to bring the $10k because you are bringing the $15k DRC. That’s totally fair so you don’t have to bring $25k worth of wine. I will bring the $30 Laroque or maybe even the $125 Carmes Haut Brion :)
Comment posted by bsumoba:
8/27/2022 1:14:00 PM - I'll bring the Korbel to start off the tasting!
Going back to Beaulieu...I think I'll pull a 97 BV PR and reread this whole thread again.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 1:23:00 PM - BS- I think you should pull a 2020… oh my that would be perfect.
Comment posted by bsumoba:
8/27/2022 2:13:00 PM - Napa 2020 is going to be a sleeper vintage. Those notes of burnt ember are going to be exquisite with bottle age. Back the truck up boys!
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/27/2022 2:22:00 PM - Almost a relief to have a vintage I don’t feel to buy!
Comment posted by csimm:
8/27/2022 2:35:00 PM - Am I to understand that no one is going deep on the 2020 BV GdL?! Come on gents. All this talk of how this 2016 will be the cat's pajamas when some magical drinking window appears, I'd think 2020 will be equally as impressive. Takin' a drag of a delectable Marlboro Red whilst sippin' my '20 BV. Stay classy folks...
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 2:55:00 PM - What is crazy is my desire to buy the 2020 GdL BEFORE I would buy the Promontory, Harlan or Bond 2020... now I can count how many times I would admit to that on one hand or one finger and in this rare case I do not mean the middle one in case some of you are playing the home game.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 2:55:00 PM - BS- Smok'em if you got'em!
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 2:57:00 PM - SF- 100% agree... a breath of fresh air... too soon?
Does anyone else exist on CT that drinks this wine more consistently that can weigh in?
Comment posted by csimm:
8/27/2022 3:14:00 PM - Lite: "Does anyone else exist on CT that drinks this wine more consistently that can weigh in?"
So, is that someone you actually want to hear from...?? :) I mean, I just figure that guy is probably busy working his shift in the booze aisle at Costco right about now and wouldn't be able to get on CT until he hitchhikes back to his mom's apartment later tonight so he can use her internet...
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/27/2022 3:36:00 PM - Ok, ok, bit of a pile on here on this, without having had this vintage. There are Napa names I don’t typically buy but end up drinking with others at similar to higher price points—leaving the culites aside—I like less such as Cakebread and Hall, and I could probably come up with a half dozen others without too much trouble. And, while this may be even more likely to get me bumped from cs’s next big shidig than not surpassing the $300 level with what I bring, I do like the Berlinger PR (cs, in a churlish mood, gave the ‘10 a 79!) full stop, even if that wouldn’t be what I’d bring to a wine get together. Also give this cuvée big props for Andre Tch. . . Eff’s role in the Napa wine industry (which, believe it or not, started before Phillipe Melka). Could you (or perhaps more relevantly, I, even when I had my friend’s discount) buy a better bottle at this price point? I think that there would be a unanimous aye from this group, but if the consensus is that you couldn’t do worse, then I gotta dissent, even if my wine-loving brothers block me from their feed as a result.
Comment posted by bsumoba:
8/27/2022 3:40:00 PM - My bank account is going to need a break, especially since I finally got onto the allocation list for Kinsman and 21 in general seemed to be good.
10 years ago, I was big on BV PR. Some risky moves in my career and in my investments have allowed me to taste some crazy juice the last 5-7 years and I really haven't looked back other than my secret love for New Zealand Sauv Blanc. Damn the kiwis. Hell, my boat is even made in New Zealand.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/27/2022 3:47:00 PM - B, I’d be interested to getting recommendations from you on NZ SBs. I do love Cloudy Bay, and there are several others which are good qpr, easy summer drinkers (infinitely preferable, for NYT tastes, to their current alternatives, Roses [that’s rosays, from someone who doesn’t know how to put in an accent mark]), but in general, IMO, nothing beats a Spottswoode. If you like chards and you’re open to NZ and haven’t tried them, I highly recommend Kumeu River’s SVD chards, quite elegant and reasonably priced.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 3:52:00 PM - SF- perhaps its win/lose/draw time? We can get a double mag of 2016 GdL. Break it down into 4oz Mason cars sealed tightly. Ship all but one of the 25 4oz Mason jars to CTers throughout the US (international may not travel well) and we do a group zoom. Then based on group think and majority wins we all taste the wine together at the exact moment- and next to it will be our ~$100 H2H which should all be different based on a pre designed approval list. Those wines can they be price verified by the moderator.
Of course you should not bear the cost rather we all chip in for this nearly televised event. I may even smoke brisket or perhaps pulled pork as it would be a great combo. Now if others get together for the event it would help reduce shipping costs… let’s do This as I love a man or women or Pronoun of their convictions plus I enjoy the Game and pageantry of the mission.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 3:54:00 PM - BS- we all have our dirty little secrets:) i honestly can say I have not had a high end NZ SB mainly because I am still dealing with acid reflux from Kim Crawford back in ‘08.
I love your boat
Love kiwi (not the fruit not sure I fully get the banana/melon combo)
Would love to visit
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 3:55:00 PM - I love Costco.
Comment posted by bsumoba:
8/27/2022 4:05:00 PM - I have tasted an okay amount of BV PR. Looking at my consumption history, 97, 03 and 05 with 97 being a back the truck up moment for me since I wanted to relive me and my wife's first date wine (2008) for many years to come. Thinking back on those wines, concentration has always been an issue with BV PR. It has always felt a bit on the easy drinking side and why I gravitated to it in my early years. I can distinctly recall my biggest splurge ever at the time, which was an 05 Araujo Eisele (I was a Vaniak nerd in the early days of youtube and as such, bought a ton of what he recommended). Fast forward to now, there is a clear step up in quality from the $100 wines to the cult wines we have been talking about in this thread. The reason for me to have sub 100 dollar wines now are for those that know me to be a self proclaimed wine snob and expect me to bring "the thunder" (wondering who here will get that reference, lol) and wine in that range will blow their minds since most of them are used to sub 20 dollar grocery store wine.
I feel like BV PR, Beringer PR, Peter Michael Esprit Les Pavot, Ridge Estate, Hidden Ridge, Napanook and the likes were all gateway wines to the world I tend to gravitate towards now. I still buy, drink and enjoy them but for very different reasons. YMMV.
Comment posted by bsumoba:
8/27/2022 4:12:00 PM - Lite...I love that idea and wouldn't mind helping set this up. I really liked how Mark from Vangone did his virtual tastings. He bought tasting pour bottles, filled them to the brim to minimize oxidation and them capped them and sealed them. I found them on amazon.
SF, let's make this happen. It would be a fun virtual event and I know many would love to participate.
Comment posted by #1Winelover:
8/27/2022 4:14:00 PM - I went to Walmart today and I love Walmart! So there Lite. My son needed college stuff. I even picked up some Wagyu beef. Hope it's real.
Lite -- I think you might be smoking something rather than smoking a Brisket.
My wife loves NZ SB, so I have become a fan. I buy her a case and then she's okay when I buy a case of stuff. It's a very fair trade.
Count me in to any Zoom tasting. For in person, assuming you are okay with someone from the Midwest, I will try to make it happen.
Comment posted by jonboy74:
8/27/2022 4:18:00 PM - I step into mywine locker for a couple hrs and come back to this?! It's taken on a life of its own.
I do bottle splits w/ a few friends at my offsite using 4 or 8oz glass bottles we bought from AMZN. Fill to the brim to minimize air, but we swap them in the facility, not via FedEx. Youd have to prob try to get ice packs or something the way FedEx is going these days!
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 4:28:00 PM - BS- so true. Although Pavots is a great wine so not sure how it compares to GdL…
#1. See previous comments. Bcellars, Myriad, Bevan Cellars, Walmart- we all have our guilty pleasures. The people watching there, while sipping on GdL in my Yeti cup to keep things chilled, is diabolically genius. Count me in!
Jonboy- I specifically thought of you and your crew when I typed it out.
I wonder what the max GdL zoom tasting group BV would sponsor would be- have them ship us 375s or even 187s to us all… who has the hookup to get this done?
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/27/2022 4:29:00 PM - Again, at the risk of getting my feed blocked by my friends for being a wine hick, Costco SF rocks for wine. Most of my ‘16, ‘18-19 BDX is from there, and while I realize Pontet, LB, Montrose, etc. may not be up to this group’s standards, for me, they’re more than respectable quaffs usually at super competitive prices.
I’m happy to play whatever role in organizing almost any type of wine get together, including hosting, as long as the numbers aren’t too large, and if we’re going virtual, that my part on the tech end isn’t much more than sending a link (oh, and not being the one bringing the DRC, Lite). #1, one of the great things on the site is connecting with others elsewhere, not only outside of the Bay Area, outside of CA, outside of the Blue States, but out of the US. Yeah, we’d love to have you join, in person if possible, but could figure out something by feed otherwise I’m sure.
Btw, this has got to be a comments record for CT. If the site, God forbid, actually figured out how to tie the eyeballs to ads, we’d all be in line to ask Eric for a cut.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/27/2022 4:33:00 PM - Lite, even as someone sticking up, kinda, sorta, for GdL, PM LP beats it with a stick, albeit it at a higher price point. Have never had the Espirit and confess my general skepticism for “second” wines, but CT friend msu is a big fan, he who knows a good wine when he tastes one, so at some point, I’m sure I will.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 4:34:00 PM - #1- best line of the thread. Wagyu at Walmart.
Comment posted by bsumoba:
8/27/2022 4:35:00 PM - SF, I think you'd be surprised on the BDX side. I love love love Pontet Canet. Drinking the 09 with Lite, WBW and Alfred Tesseron at the Tesseron (Pym Rae / Robin Williams old estate) on Mt. Veeder was something I will never forget.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/27/2022 4:38:00 PM - B, You’re breaking my heart that I wasn’t there with you guys. :(. While I’m far from the last word on BDX, even, perhaps especially, on this thread, I’m really impressed with how the ‘09s are drinking. I think the ‘10s will eventually surpass them, but not for some time. ‘09 SHL was particularly great a few months ago.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 4:44:00 PM - SF- this will be my lone non-sarcastic comment as I think you are taking some comments out of context. I/we respect budgets/pallets/etc and I will never fault/judge/etc on someone’s amount they do not spend on wine. If you notice I list 10-20 wines that range from $25-$120 all that I would walk into my cellar and not look the other way and/or if someone opened a bottle I would push to the front of the line to grab a taste/glass. I truly love the wines I mentioned and have been fortune enough over the last five years to try an unfair/unlikely amount of wines in one setting (like En Premier, etc) and it’s only through tasting these wines- and there is a method to my madness that I have weeded out cellar defenders to now only have wines I actively want to drink. Admittedly the sub $100 I prefer are less than I would like to admit but they are real and I do not disparage anyone for that. Now I feel that this wine I know zero about simply piled on for fun May not be a wine I appreciate, regardless of price, to the levels of these $25-$125 wines I mention BUT am open to giving it a fair shake. Now while I trust CSIMM palate (he has an incredible palate and appreciation for wine far greater than I) when it comes to wine, and we have similarities although differ in many, I can appreciate every single wine he tastes and comments on even if I disagree. A perfect standout example is our different champagne palates and some white Burgundy as they both relate to acid as the common denominator.
Again please do not take any of my comments (I will not speak for others) for knocking budgets or spending as that is not a fair or frankly correct measure in any form unless someone is trying to get a loan or credit card limit increases. The comments here are specific to this wine and this wine alone.
Ok back to our regular programming.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/27/2022 4:57:00 PM - Lite, absolutely no intent to either give or take offense, and sorry if I did! I have great respect for the wine knowledge of all on this thread.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/27/2022 5:23:00 PM - No no I must not have been clear- I wanted you to know there is no offense meant rather a shared banter on what we all love. Hugs all around.
Comment posted by csimm:
8/28/2022 8:40:00 AM - Remind me not to step away from this thread next time to enjoy dinner... ups and downs, smiles and frowns. You all covered it all in the last, what, 30 comments. Love it!
Though ya’ll are likely bored of this conversation by now, I’ll add on since I’m late back to the party. The following may sound like some Freudian confessional, but anyways...
Lite is one of the best resources for a matter-of-fact keenly accurate take on BDX (others too, but especially on BDX) on CT. I think we have all benefitted greatly from his experience there.
I think everyone here on this thread has great palates and truly cares about wine (obviously right?). QPR banter aside, I’ve learned a ton from everyone here and would never fault anyone for any wine they love - just don’t try to tell me BV GdL is amazing, ever... :) Sorry, has to get a jab in.
I like thatvour palates change and we transition in and out of wine. My wallet hates it and it can be frustrating, but it truly reminds me never to truly dismiss any bottle of wine (except BV GdL.... ok ok last dig).
Comment posted by csimm:
8/28/2022 8:45:00 AM - Also, to B’s point (well, everyone’s point): Getting together in some way to share the experience of wine is the
cool part first. The rest is just frosting, what with the banter and academic “I taste blackberry cobbler on the finish, or is it gooseberry droppings, or rasmataz foam essence...” that our spouses all roll their eyes at us every time we utter some thesaurus-worthy tasting musing.
Comment posted by csimm:
8/28/2022 8:50:00 AM - And finally (and because I just had to get to #85 apparently), I certainly don’t mean to sound snobby about certain wines. I’m just honestly trying to transition the cellar a bit away from “Tuesday night” wines since (absent tastings or group experiences), I’m not someone who knocks down a bunch of wine just to drink - I’m getting older these days ya know... where’s my warm milk?!? Anyway, I guess I’m personally looking for less QPR wines than I am memorable wines. Not that some QPR wines can’t be that, but...
Comment posted by jonboy74:
8/28/2022 9:08:00 AM - Great comments. Im in the same boat on tuesday night specials, I should have listened to Lite before I bought 15 cases of de negoce. Fortunately my wife still enjoys them midweek so I can pop more rieslings and continue to explore those.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/28/2022 9:13:00 AM - Cs, LOL, particularly on your penultimate comment, on which my spouse did indeed roll here eyes, while laughing.
Ever so slightly more seriously, as the bearer of the qpr flag, and perhaps the carrier of the most diverse set of preferences (hard to rate vs. you, since you have rieslings and Burgs, which I generally don’t, while I have Italy and some Iberia and S. Hemisphere, which you generally don’t) and price points of the group, I do think that if every wine is a $300+ BDX/Napa BDX varietal, no bottle is a $300+ bottle; it just becomes the new normal. While it’s awesome to find bottles that cost $40 which are really interesting and don’t fall that far qualitatively short of the $300, or at least $200, ones, it’s also ok to find ones that do fall well short because, well, they sharpen my appreciation for what’s really fine. While I understand the “Why would I drink plonk when I could have had a Colgin?” especially if money isn’t an object, it’s sometimes, at least for my twisted mind, and without going totally Hegel on you, the not so great that makes the great even better. Just my 2 cents, and as mentioned, I’ll do my level best, including letting you pick from what I’ve got, to keep the not so great in a different area code from you when I’m lucky enough for our paths to cross.
Comment posted by jonboy74:
8/28/2022 9:17:00 AM - Great point. For me, these kinsmans and MacDs are trophy wines I rarely drink. My QPR wines are in the $100 and lower range which is 95% of my consumption. However, I aspire to be in a position to only drink 1st growths and DRC. Fingers crossed I can get there
Comment posted by csimm:
8/28/2022 9:25:00 AM - Totally agree on all points. I guess when it comes to drinking wine, I don’t want to have bad/just ok/good-ish/very good but forgettable wine just for the sake of using it as a reference for what not to drink and to highlight the top wines even more. I do get that the more you drink in a certain category that they can all blend together at times (at any class I think that’s true), and I also get the glass half full perspective that lesser wines can give you in terms of a broader academic referencing. “Any experience is a good experience because... it’s an experience that you grow from” and all that. So I guess that means I’m narrowing my perspective, but I also look at it as trying to hone my palate and, even more importantly, not end up with a cellar full of wine I just kinda like and never really reach for anymore. It sounds cliche and grossly unrealistic, but I kinda want every wine to be special at this point.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/28/2022 9:34:00 AM - JB: Just don’t unfriend me when you get to the DRC point . . .
Comment posted by jonboy74:
8/28/2022 9:55:00 AM - I may only be drinking 1 bottle of wine a year when I reach that point in my wine drinking, but rest assured you can be there with me to share in the bottle!
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/28/2022 10:41:00 AM - Jonboy whose birth year I can’t figure out- how much do you spend on the wines you drink in a year? If DRC is $5k and you only drink one wine a year, won’t you actually be spending less than you do now?
SF- I want you to wow me on a wine I don’t know of or am less familiar with. I love when that happens.
CSIMM- I am simply a humble servant and unfortunately cannot accept that lofty praise but… if you could call my wife and tell her cool things about me that would be great 555-1212.
Comment posted by jonboy74:
8/28/2022 10:46:00 AM - Dont have good statistics on my annual spend. Was thinking of a $20k bottle of DRC though. Will share w friends using an eye dropper.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/28/2022 10:56:00 AM - I feel like since we are in the trust tree we should evaluate BV Tapestry. Should we also use the 2016 Tapestry as part of the H2H- anyone care to share their hopes and dreams?
Comment posted by jonboy74:
8/28/2022 11:01:00 AM - May as well do the full BV lineup (which looks to be 26 different cabernet bottlings!!! We can spit those though. I am guilty of buying those 2 packs of whatever they sell in Costco for $15. I may revisit those as those used to be my tuesday night drinkers.
Comment posted by csimm:
8/28/2022 11:17:00 AM - Who knew that having these cult comparative tasting events was all just a waste of time and money. $50 gets me a sack of BV wines to put together all I need to bring the band back together and offer a whole night of fun tasting. Guess I’ve been doing this all wrong. I’m going to sell my cellar and fill it with Sutter Home and Zima.... oh, and BV of course. Perfect.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/28/2022 11:57:00 AM - CSIMM- I love it when a plan comes together.
Why would you leave out Boones Strawberry Hill, Jug of Gallo and Mad Dog 20/20? Oh Purple Passion makes my knees weak and heart flutter. We can also chase it down with, or better yet start the night with, Goldschlager because I LOVE Gold…
Comment posted by jonboy74:
8/28/2022 12:11:00 PM - re: my birthyear, its 1989. Or maybe that's a typo on my drivers license?
re: Lite being some authority on BDX. Well ok he does know his stuff. I do take pride in the fact I introduced him to Malescot (and I still swear I introduced him to Poyferre but he vehemently refuses to give me credit for that one). He also is a champ at making me spend far more money than I originally intended. But WineBerzerkers does the same thing, so maybe its not entirely his fault.
OK so to bring this back to something more realistic, which direction are we going here with a tasting - are we going to do a big-boy cult wine one, a $100'ish QPR one, or a BV one (or one of the first two with a GdL thrown in to see if CSimm really hates it)? I don't particularly want to open up too many bottles where good juice is wasted, nor do I want to feel the need to down 2 bottles of wine in one sitting (or, gasp, have to spit one of these precious gems). Ohne_Musik would be another great local to invite, he put me to shame at the UGC event recently, hopefully he will still talk to me and not think I'm just some n00b that didn't belong there :)
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/28/2022 12:21:00 PM - I think I will have to meditate on these life changing questions.
I like Ohne_Musik already.
Maybe I will sell my cellar and drink welches white grape juice or based on age prune juice...
Comment posted by jonboy74:
8/28/2022 12:27:00 PM - Id' love to draw Ohne into this thread but then it would never die. We just hit 100 comments.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/28/2022 2:11:00 PM - So, Lite, I’ll take you at your word, with a big gulp, since you drink better wines than I do, and are probably more knowledgeable about them to boot (as an aside, before writing this, I scanned your TNs and tried, unsuccessfully, to get into your cellar, and saw your recent tour of Tuscany; so much for the one area I thought I might have actually known more!). The 2 highish end, for me, things, I’ve been drinking and loving for the past year or so, of which you have no TNs, are Flaccainello (Fontodi), a non-classified 100% Tuscan sangio, and Quilceda Creek (WA), particularly their flagship bottling. Completely different wines, but both impeccably structured, very long, very energetic. Neither would be anywhere near the top of your tasting carte, certainly in price—depending on vintage, where you buy them, etc., you’re talking anywhere from low $100s to low $200s—but I think absolutely outstanding in each instance. The Flac ‘16, which I haven’t tried but haven’t had a bottle of, would no doubt be hardcore infanticide, but is supposed to be their most extraordinary vintage ever. I’d happily engage in infanticide to be included in a similar Napa experience to the one you had with the guys this Spring.
And to whomever mentioned St. Exupery and Poyfrere among favorite BDX, at least on a qpr basis, I’m very much there with you. Fwiw, I always see these listed as among the more “modern” of the BDX, which makes me smile, since even with these, I get less fruit than I do in midrange to more old world Napa BDX blends like Montelena, Montebello, Spottswoode, etc. that I love.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/28/2022 2:18:00 PM - Oh, yeah, Lite, and Ovid, especially the ‘12.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/28/2022 2:25:00 PM - SF- my invite and comments are all genuine.
You are welcome to come to AZ anytime. Never need an excuse to do something fun. One of the CT’ers is flying in for the Chateau Angelus dinner at Anhelo so we decided to do a BYOB dinner the night before. Killer lineup already- can’t wait for both nights. Even if there wasn’t a chateau flying in from France we could always arrange something fun- never have to twist my arm for drinking great wines.
The 100% Sangiovese I had once way before I got into Italian wines. Open to give it another try but I am very particular on Italian wines as I either hate them or love them with not much room in between (I prefer darker fruits and more balance of acid/tannins than most Italians afford).
Q creek- I have had but not recently. I think I own a couple. Open to try that as well since you love it.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/28/2022 2:29:00 PM - Thanks, Lite. At some point, I’ll get down to AZ, maybe for an event, even better if it’s something more casual with just a bunch of CT folks like these folks, mjp, etc. First choice, if possible, would be an outing with you and others in the Valley. You know so many people up here and so many unforgettable experiences, that would be a bucket list thing for me . . .
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/28/2022 2:38:00 PM - SF- sounds good. Unfortunately my Napa trips are last minute so hard to plan but we will figure something out at some point. Cheers
Comment posted by csimm:
8/28/2022 4:54:00 PM - Guess I need to drink crappy wine more often... love the 100+ comment discussion. Well done all. Trophies all around... “...and YOU get a car, and YOU get a car, and YOU... get BV....”
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/28/2022 5:30:00 PM - To put a more finer point on this—as someone more regularly drinking in the $100 retail range, even if I’m often able to buy for $70ish, as in this case—I’m currently sipping a ‘12 Hartwell Estate, which is drinking like a 93-94 point wine in my scoring, more power than I expect I’ll find when I pop that dreaded ‘16 GdL, but *way* more delineation and less sweetness than the extravagantly overpraised—my opinion only—Ontogeny. Not as good as the Hartwell ERs I’ve been lucky to actually get for a bit less, but really solid in this category, at least for my plebeian tastes.
Comment posted by #1Winelover:
8/28/2022 6:24:00 PM - I really wanted to chime in and be #100. But, we have a village. Sorry gents -- golfing takes too long.
Comment posted by bsumoba:
8/28/2022 7:21:00 PM - I just finished golfing...I have a lot to catch up while the kiddo takes a bath.
Comment posted by jonboy74:
8/28/2022 7:55:00 PM - Ontogeny is totally overpraised! Amen to that! Not my cup of tea! But the nose was awesome, thats my favorite part!
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/28/2022 8:30:00 PM - I do recommend the ee Tench, though, and loved Bevan’s Harbison Pony Express even more. I have a couple of ‘16 Vixens waiting to calm down that I’m looking forward to. But the Ontogeny strikes me as a just slightly better Caymus.
Comment posted by csimm:
8/28/2022 9:00:00 PM - Boy am I sorry I mentioned Ontogeny. I don't even drink it and now I'm its defender. Hahaha. My point is not that Ontogeny is great, or even good. My point is that I'd drink that any day over BV GdL (at least, THIS bottle). I feel so misunderstood lol. At the risk of sounding like a true contrarian (as usual), I don't know that I can get on board with championing uninspiring wines that still cost $70-100 a bottle. Uninspiring is uninspiring, and really shouldn't be worth $5, unless the ultimate goal is just to drink something alcoholic. If that's the case, we are back to Lite's Boone's Farm :)
I hear myself talk/type sometimes and wonder what I actually sound like...
Comment posted by #1Winelover:
8/29/2022 3:57:00 AM - CSIMM, I think that you should change your rating to 48 instead of 84. 84 is kind of like a solid B -- right?
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/29/2022 8:05:00 AM - I think we’ve probably beaten the maligned GdT to a pulp and probably even exhausted the theme of $100- cabs. But cs, while I”m not sure where the line is between sarcasm and sincerity, and for the next time I’m lucky enough to be in your company with quality quaffs in front of us, I’m wondering if you’re throwing in the towel on other wines at this price point which, if not extraordinary, are great qpr, and often, really good, full stop. Without going back and checking, or conversely being exhaustive, I think that in the past couple-few years you’ve written notes, mostly positive, about Italian (Rocco di Montegrossi, Solengo, Sorbo, Oreno, Fontalloro), BDX (Haut Bardot, Fleur), Rhône (not remembering names now) wines, as well as Burgs and Rieslings which I’m less interested in, in this range which I drink with semi-regularity and/or have in my collection, which I’ve found really helpful (and more importantly, you often seem to have enjoyed). In full sincerity, I’d miss seeing those if you moved full-time into wines that for me are more often aspirational than actual. As Lite says, hugs to everyone, and no slurs against what anyone is drinking (as long as you can afford it without debt collectors calling or causing marital discord!).
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/29/2022 8:14:00 AM - For me, fwiw, the core of what I drink, and expect will continue to unless I wake up one morning with an 8 figure lot of unmarked bearer bonds on my doorstep, is $100- wines of diverse producers, varietals, locations and vintages, which I hope/expect to score in the 91-95 range, always aggressively price sourced (so that some may be well over this price at many locales). All the while looking for those magical bottles that transcend this level, quality-wise, usually price wise . . .
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/29/2022 8:18:00 AM - Well done everyone, this has to be a record thread that will forever be available to go back and admire for years to come. Will be fin to revisit as our palates shift again in 13 hours but better to close it out for now.
Look forward to pulling corks with the group- as a gentleman and a scholar once said, stay thirsty my friends (MIMITW).
-LIOF Out
Comment posted by csimm:
8/29/2022 8:35:00 AM - #1 - Excellent point! If going by my scholastic grading system (And NO, not the grading system used by many schools nowadays where you still get a smiley face and gift basket when you flunk your SAT), this would be about a 62 (D-). And to be fair, my tasting note did include a line about scoring higher than me for those so inclined. And to really be fair, the food sucked with this wine that night, so maybe it is really a 65.
sf - The $100 convo for me was more focused on and regarding my inclination to not buy Napa (And BDX) Cabs anymore in that range. They just disappoint, or more accurately, not inspire. Sure there are names that can be thrown around that are good-ish and all, but, well, you know...
Some Grand Cru Chablis and perhaps a couple Champagne producers would be in that range for me, but unfortunately the rest may be on the sidelines (again, to be clear, this is just for my purchasing for my cellar). I have enjoyed some Italian wine but, similar to Lite, I either really like a couple of Italian wines or I’m instantly bored with them. Trying to get some depth out of them can be challenging at times. Also, I’m a darker fruit guy generally (some exception with red Burgs), so the red cherry and rose petal thing doesn’t do a lot for me typically.
I don’t mint money, so it means the amount I purchase goes way down and becomes more selective, which is cool, cuz the amount I consume is down. I have a bunch of midrange wine I’ll probably never get to. Looks like I need to throw a party...or make a K&L run.
Comment posted by csimm:
8/29/2022 8:39:00 AM - Lite is tired of getting 20 emails an hour on this thread!
Until next time folks. (Woooops, I think my palate just changed again... I only like Sutter Home now...)
Comment posted by MJP Hou TX:
8/31/2022 2:38:00 PM - War and peace was a shorter literary achievement. Congratulations to all those that helped with this masterpiece.
Comment posted by bsumoba:
8/31/2022 2:49:00 PM - I cant believe 16 BV PR mag goes for $350 retail.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/31/2022 2:55:00 PM - MP- well said.
BS- meaning too cheap? They should charge more?
Comment posted by bsumoba:
8/31/2022 3:00:00 PM - Lite - Nope...meaning it should've been maybe $220 at most. And even then, might as well buy two bottles. The only risk being bottle variation if we were to do a zoom tasting. Oh by the way...just send me what was left from last night please. I will gladly dispose of it in my body. Thanks.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
8/31/2022 4:30:00 PM - Are we talking about the Berlinger PR or the BV GdL? Typically, retail on the Berlinger is about mid to high $1s, the BV low to mid $1s (in each case for a 750), but both should be readily available for less. I’ve gotten my BVs over the last number of years for an average in the low to mid $70s, the Berlinger the mid to high $80s (I had a ‘12 at lunch today with a friend at Kokkari I paid just over $100 for, which was the high water mark on price). At my general prices, I think both are more than solid, again, my opinion only, but like many wines, I wouldn’t pay retail for them. Even at what I’ve paid, if anyone else is price conscious on this thread, the best CA BDX varietals I’ve found in the secondary market, at prices just a bit less than the BV, were the Hartwell ER and Riverain, and if you want to go down even a bit more in price, and go 500 miles north without sacrificing much quality, Corliss and Andrew Will. Again, for me only, in the just above $100 level with careful shopping, I’ve particularly liked Favia and QC, and if you bump to mid to high $1s, Ovid. All this has required a lot of shopping, which I kinda enjoy, and losing auction bids, and I realize tastes are incredibly personal. I mean, I *could* probably find a way to way to make Ovid my low end wine with Abreu and Colgin in the middle and God knows what above, and if that’s anyone else’s direction, I only ask for the occasional invite to join you! Cheers to all!
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
8/31/2022 11:56:00 PM - BS- nah you would have hated last night and tonight.
SF- always welcome to join. Cheers
Comment posted by #1Winelover:
9/1/2022 3:45:00 AM - I can't believe that my longest CT thread is for an overrated bottle of Beaulieu.
Comment posted by csimm:
9/1/2022 7:36:00 AM - Lite rolls with Harlans and Moutons and Cheval Blancs.
Me...? I roll with BV. Based on this thread, it’s clear that BV holds much more interest than any of those lame first growths :)
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
9/1/2022 7:42:00 AM - Thanks CSIMM for pointing that out. Actually this entire thing is beneath me to the point I walked in to my cellar, opened up 100 bottles of Petrus to cleanse myself from this thread. Ah that is much better.
Comment posted by #1Winelover:
9/1/2022 7:45:00 AM - The Shah of Iran used to bathe in milk. Lite bathes in Petrus. CSIMM drinks a shitty bottle of wine and rates it a B. CTers write over 100 comments.
Comment posted by csimm:
9/1/2022 8:13:00 AM - 128 comments on this thread and only one person found the tasting note helpful. Hahahahaha.
Not sure what the hidden meaning is there.....?
Ok... how about some content?! (Lite will kill me for keeping this going)... All this talk about Napa producers that make ok-ish wine makes me wonder what folks’ actual top Napa producers are that they actually buy on the regular - not like “Screagle” which may (or may not) be a top producer but I don’t buy it.
Top 5:
Macdonald
Kinsman
Eisele
Colgin
Harlan
5/10 years ago this list would have been strikingly different.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
9/1/2022 8:25:00 AM - To think I consider it a triumph that I no longer cook with 2 buck chuck!
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
9/1/2022 8:56:00 AM - Don't respond... don't respond. Damnit, I can't help myself. It's a trainwreck and this will not help any...
Take your five and add
Abreu
Scarecrow (regardless on the recent profile changes as I will be curious to see what direction they go)
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
9/1/2022 9:02:00 AM - Thanks, Lite. That’s at least one label I’ve bought more than a bottle of.
Comment posted by bsumoba:
9/1/2022 10:32:00 AM - My Napa list in no particular order:
Scarecrow
Eisele
Harlan
Promontory
Colgin
Abreu
VHR
Macdonald
Vice Versa
Kinsman
Maybach
Tynan
Up and coming producers to watch:
Bella Oaks
Impensata
Comment posted by MJP Hou TX:
9/1/2022 1:03:00 PM - Let's keep this going....
VHR
Abreu
Keplinger (Inc. Rhone)
Eisele
Kinsman
MacDonald
Futo 5500 (Stags Leap)
Scarecrow
Bella Oaks
Bedrock (Old Vine & Field Blends)
Blankiet
Kapcsandy
Continuum
Greer
Blue Chips (Older Vintages)
Heitz Martha's Vineyard
Diamond Creek
Araujo
Comment posted by bsumoba:
9/1/2022 1:17:00 PM - I love how we just hijacked the comment section and turned it into our own little forum.
I'm just waiting for them to close the comment section down for this TN. lol.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
9/1/2022 1:20:00 PM - I’m not sure I have much to contribute, since my buying is so scattered, and for some time, it’s been more Italy (particularly Tuscany), WA and France (first Rhones, lately more BDX). I’ve been on the list for the Montelena Estates the past few years, so I’ve accumulated quite a few, but they take a while, which I may or may not have, to get to peak, and they just raised the price by 30%, so I’m out. I buy Aubert chards from the list, and I’ve been buying Keplinger, mostly Rhones, in the past 6 months. As mentioned well up the thread, what’s really been getting my attention has been QC, especially the flagship, and Flac. What I’d love to get from you guys are some top flight producers where you can actually buy off the list now (as opposed to MacDonald, where my number may never come up) or Morlet, Peter Michael, etc. where you can buy the bottles cheaper in the secondary market. Aubert is definitely one such producer, but I’m very much on the lookout for others. Anyone able to help out this spendthrift with caviar tastes?
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
9/1/2022 1:44:00 PM - I heard BV has options… what too soon?
Comment posted by bsumoba:
9/1/2022 1:47:00 PM - SF - There are multiple producers that will allow you to buy direct, but it is often during a tasting so you have to commit to going to tastings. My friend and I at minimum, go once a quarter and choose 3 different producers. June trip was Macdonald, Cardinale and La Pelle. The one before that in March with Eisele, VHR and Impensata. For all the producers I buy every year from, I visit them once a year to taste the next vintage. At most of these tastings, there is wine to be bought. Eisele, Vice Versa, Harlan, Promontory, Colgin, Monte Bello, Impensata, etc are all producers that will set aside wines for tastings for guests to buy.
I think visiting the producers and developing relationships and showing up consistently is huge. I get that you can buy some of these wines in the secondary market and for cheaper, but IMO, the producers will never know who you are and it will be hard to get said tastings if they do not see your name on any DTC buy list or visit list.
Comment posted by csimm:
9/1/2022 2:46:00 PM - There’s the part where you have to commit to buying their product. Most in-demand winemakers and proprietors have enough ‘friends’ wanting to drink their wine. If there was a consistent cheap way around it, everyone would do it. I know I would :). Harlan scoffs sometimes at tastings with people who actually buy their wine, let alone those who don’t.
I love me a bargain as much as the next guy/gal, but if it’s just about getting the wine for the cheapest and the least amount of effort (to include being on a waitlist, and to B’s point, establishing a relationship over time), then BV might be the better route indeed.
Comment posted by #1Winelover:
9/1/2022 2:48:00 PM - The House of Realm
Fait Main
Kinsman
Abreu
MacDonald
and Beaulieu.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
9/1/2022 3:37:00 PM - Like I said, there’s always Aubert. Sorry that there’s nothing else.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
9/1/2022 3:48:00 PM - And I don’t mind committing; I just don’t want to then find the same bottles in the secondary market for half the price. And humor aside, the alternative, more often than not, isn’t BV; it’s the secondary market, although I’m not sure I’m going to get to the point in any market where I’m paying $200+ for my everyday, default bottles. Sorry . . .
Comment posted by jonboy74:
9/1/2022 4:32:00 PM - My God. Set my phone down for a few hours and I come back to this frankenthread.
Im more down market in my auto buy purchases in Napa:
EMH (last vintage 2019. Single biggest holding in my entire collection. Best QPR ever)
La Pelle
Caterwaul
William & Mary
Rivers Marie
Di costanzo
Greer
Kinsman
Pott
Riverain
I need to hunt you guys down in a bordeaux review so we can have a parallel discussion, where we can bash a Michel Rolland wine and talk about the first growths, sloppy seconds and unclassified wines we buy annually.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
9/1/2022 5:55:00 PM - JB: good to see a few more names that I actually have. I hadn’t heard of EMH before but note their friendly price points, and while it’s not my main consideration, reasonable abv levels. Any particular bottlings/vintages you recommend? I’ll look for them.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
9/1/2022 7:32:00 PM - Also buying a lot of another bete noire of at least one person on this thread: Larkmead.
Comment posted by jonboy74:
9/7/2022 12:56:00 PM - Lads, get your checkbooks ready!
100 Points: 2019 Georges de Latour
Release Date: September 19, 2022
Comment posted by bsumoba:
9/7/2022 1:02:00 PM - I'm all over it! Wait...I need to go buy Colgin, Almacerro, Macdonald, Abreu, and Bella Oaks first. I think I might be tapped out after the fall offerings.
Comment posted by csimm:
9/7/2022 1:06:00 PM - 100 points from who? ...Kazakhstan Wine Insider??
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
9/7/2022 1:13:00 PM - Even as a (relative) supporter of this cuvée, this sounds like a major case of grade inflation. Don’t think I’ve had one I’d score above a 94, with most in my 92-93 range.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
9/7/2022 1:18:00 PM - Wait until you try the 2020!! Save up boys!
Comment posted by bsumoba:
9/7/2022 1:19:00 PM - I'm telling you, 2020...the ultimate sleeper vintage. So much so that it might never wake up!
Comment posted by csimm:
9/7/2022 1:34:00 PM - I think they plan on marketing the 2020 as more of a high-end cafeteria restaurant wine. ...at least that's what I heard from the Somm at Panda Express.
Comment posted by jonboy74:
9/7/2022 1:47:00 PM - 100 Points: 2019 Georges de Latour
Release Date: September 19, 2022
“Wow! The aromas to this are really exceptional ... It changes all the time. So expressive and refined. Full-bodied with great intensity and depth of fruit. The ultra-fine tannins display millions of layers. The texture on the palate is superb and lasts for minutes. This is the new 1974 Georges de Latour, which was a legend. Real Napa Valley red here … Benchmark.” - James Suckling
Comment posted by bsumoba:
9/7/2022 1:54:00 PM - Somm-one at Panda maybe? LOL
1974 BV PR = 2019 BV PR. Wow...I hope JS is not on that ayahuasca that Aaron Rodgers admitted he did recently.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
9/7/2022 4:23:00 PM - If ayahuasca can convert a low 90s wine into a 100 pt’er, maybe we all need to start taking some before our wine spends destroy us!
Comment posted by jonboy74:
10/30/2022 10:06:00 PM - Well boys and girls I brought one of these home from the offsite today,.I just had to give one a go. Will open on friday with a lengthy decant. Buckle up!
Comment posted by csimm:
10/30/2022 10:08:00 PM - Jonboy. The fate of the entire wine world is in your precious hands…
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
10/30/2022 10:12:00 PM - How do you co-k tease us like that (is that ‘- ‘ a C or R, one will never know)? Until Friday???
Comment posted by jonboy74:
10/30/2022 10:15:00 PM - Thinking I better open it tomorrow to avoid this thread hitting 1000 posts...
Comment posted by csimm:
10/30/2022 10:19:00 PM - I have been waiting all my life just to know how a BV is going to perform. I simply MUST… KNOW… I mean, I have to know how many cases of this I need to order.
Comment posted by jonboy74:
10/30/2022 10:25:00 PM - Its a latour. Latour makes great wine. So it must be incredible. If this wine delivers Ill sell my entire cellar and load up on this one!
Comment posted by MJP Hou TX:
10/31/2022 4:25:00 AM - What a tease…..
People that annoy you. 5 seconds Mr. Marsh.
Oops that was the unedited version 😳
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
10/31/2022 7:32:00 AM - You all know that csimm is getting a royalty on each of these comments, right? Well, at least it paid for the BDX tasting on Saturday!
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
10/31/2022 7:40:00 AM - I can’t believe CT knocked down the total posts under 100- i feel like we will never get back to that elusive 100 ever again.
SF- might be the comment of the thread. Well done.
Comment posted by csimm:
10/31/2022 8:03:00 AM - Oh if I only had the motivation to monetize any of this wine nonsense the way others have.
My man sfwinelover… ever the miser. Ironic you’d want to mention money spent on contributions to the BDX tasting. #sfQPRlover1 :)
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
10/31/2022 8:05:00 AM - I am just so jealous SF brought a 40 year vertical of GdL to your house. Rumor has it there was a Brinks Armored Truck to handle the delivery.
Comment posted by csimm:
10/31/2022 8:14:00 AM - I guess every party needs that someone to bring the 2L plastic jug of GdL and a bag of Doritos….
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
10/31/2022 8:30:00 AM - Don’t you dare put GdL in the same Conversation as that golden cheese (is it cheese) chip goodness loved my children near and far.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
10/31/2022 8:44:00 AM - Lite: just off the truck from Chateau Costco!
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
10/31/2022 8:46:00 AM - Bought last week’s Abreu from a sketchy guy in a raincoat and sunglasses. Said he was Brad’s love child. Who was I to doubt him?
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
10/31/2022 8:50:00 AM - And not to acknowledge I’m cheap or anything, but I’d have hung on to that Montrose for 3 weeks to get some flavor out of it if I had to. Good thing it only took a couple of days and I only had to bat away a few fruit flies!
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
10/31/2022 8:51:00 AM - SF- hope your wine (s) came out on top! Did you go with the Angelus or Lalande? What was your strategy?
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
10/31/2022 8:58:00 AM - The Montrose fell embarrassingly short. I gave it almost a day of a mix of aeration and slow ox, and it didn’t open (it did the next day, almost another 24 hours later). My Fevre Chablis acquitted itself more respectably, although A_M’s Meuersault clearly bested that, too. My winner of the night was A_M’s ringer Materium, Angelus in the BDX competition, but I’m wishing I paid more attention to the L’Eglise Clinet. I’m thinking I didn’t give it enough to attention. Great tasting all the way around. How as your event?
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
10/31/2022 9:42:00 AM - Sounds magical- might be worth getting a small vertical of the eglise-clinet ‘18-‘2020 to spend some time with them in order to really get to know that wine and Pomerol!
Cos was a blast! Luckily my liver gets a break before the next two back to back.
Comment posted by csimm:
10/31/2022 9:55:00 AM - Lite is a sage-like BDX mahatma!
Comment posted by jonboy74:
10/31/2022 10:00:00 AM - Lite what are you talking about? The thread shows 175 comments, so we are still going strong. And after I post my much-anticipated review of the wonder that is this 2016 GdL, I think the entire CT community is going to come to this thread and push it over 5,000.
Lite and CSimm make me feel inadequate. CSimm moreso, because he waxes some seriously poetic TNs that bring tears to my eyes. I seriously think he pays a professional writer to at least proofread them before posting. I sometimes search for other TNs with their comments on unobtanium-type wines I'll never have, as I suspect the two of them are having fun at my expense on a TN that I shouldn't be reading.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
10/31/2022 10:01:00 AM - More like a sloth…
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
10/31/2022 10:02:00 AM - Not to go all off thread or anything, but curious what you thought about the ‘16 Cos if that was on the carte. We had it on Saturday, and I thought it was pretty tied up, although it started to show signs of life in the last 30-60 minutes, as opposed to the Montrose, ‘00 Poyfrere and ‘16 Ducru, which were pretty much inert for the evening. I’ve liked that bottling a lot in the past but never had one under 10 years of bottle age.
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
10/31/2022 10:07:00 AM - 2016 wines for the majority are a version of closed with of course a number of exceptions. I would have imagined Ducru ‘16 to be closed as it was trending there from my last bottle (doing an eight bottle vertical in a couple of weeks).
Don’t know which vintage(s) of Montrose so can’t comment there.
Leoville Poyferre changed their style and quality beginning in 2012ish so look for better wines beginjng in 2015
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
10/31/2022 10:17:00 AM - The Montrose was an ‘18. I’m still working on my TNs but have about half in (including the Montrose).
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
10/31/2022 10:23:00 AM - Many '18s are starting to close down unfortunately. They had a good run! I would focus on 2015s for more of the recent vintages (or '19/'20).
Comment posted by jonboy74:
10/31/2022 10:29:00 AM - I had a 2016 Malescot over the weekend that was excellent. However I had a 2016 Grand Puy Lacoste last fall that was completely shut down. I suppose YMMV on those 2016s!
Don't tell me the 2018s are shutting down, I haven't even begun to meaningfully sample them! I guess I'll just have to start with my 2019s, whenever my half bottles show up.
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
10/31/2022 11:11:00 AM - Fwiw, the ‘15 Figeac was tight a drum, and a ‘16 Pontet the weekend before bested anything from the tasting, all of which had higher price points. #whyIfind BDXsomaddeningreason#971. Recent notes on both the Montrose and Fig gave little indication that they would be so shut down. Seems like it’s bottling to bottling, almost bottle to bottle . . .
Comment posted by Franken Berry:
10/31/2022 6:28:00 PM - Stop this train! I want to get off!!
Comment posted by jonboy74:
11/2/2022 10:19:00 PM - just posted up my 3 day review...
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
11/2/2022 11:02:00 PM - I have been waiting my whole entire life for this- reading it now
Comment posted by #1Winelover:
11/3/2022 3:41:00 AM - Jonboy - did your reptile like it?
Comment posted by sfwinelover1:
11/3/2022 7:49:00 AM - Looking forward to hearing the story about that critter at some point. Definitely wines the award for most distinctive CT pic. You South of the Mason Dixon line guys are a thing unto yourselves.
Comment posted by markydecker:
11/3/2022 3:12:00 PM - Sfwl, this is a quite impressive and entertaining thread…would love to pop some corks (BDX) with all of these great wine lovers… cheers:)
Comment posted by LiteItOnFire:
11/3/2022 3:18:00 PM - Water is warm, jump in!
Comment posted by #1Winelover:
12/3/2022 7:44:00 AM - CSimm - can you buy a case of their 2018 and then add a review please? Dunnuck ranked it #31 on his Top 100 of the year. 97+ points. We know that he is a conservative scorer so it might be a 100 point wine.
Comment posted by csimm:
12/3/2022 1:23:00 PM - I already bought three cases in light of JD’s always ultra conservative scoring :)