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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/4/2020 4:38:57 PM

khmark7

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From: Chicago suburbs
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Chris my young shoots are 1-2 inches in length, and they are predicting temps around 32 on Friday night....so it will be a nervous night.

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Post #: 1171

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/8/2020 6:56:56 AM

Franklin 10

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Joined: 12/8/2011
From: Indianapolis
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Making wine
Is it the right thing to do?

How can I
Ever grow grapes out in a field?

If you could
Chris, would you teach me some Pearls?

Overcrop?
Spray, or just rake and pull weeds?

You can grow your own grapes.
(Grow your own grapes)
You can call it a stony AVA.
(A stony A V A)

It’s no lie
Everything’s in the ground.

In the ‘yard
Organic’s all I want to do.

If you could
Maybe you’d teach you some Pearls.

I’ll soak it up
The weather is great there’s things to do!

You can grow your own grapes.
(Grow your own grapes)
You can call it a stony AVA.
(A stony A V A)

You can grow your own grapes.
(Grow your own grapes)
You can call it a stony AVA.
(A stony A V A)

_____________________________

the Empirate

"Jim Harrison, northern Michigan's favorite son and food lover, once told me, 'One of the main causes of premature death is fretting about your diet.' He then topped up my glass of wine."
-abra berens

(in reply to khmark7)

Post #: 1172

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/8/2020 11:24:07 AM

ChrisinCowiche

Posts: 7845
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From: Cowiche, WA
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I'm impressed with Franklin's poetry, but I was not sure if I was supposed to be using the first letter of each line to figure out the code.

We've survived a few more chilly nights and yesterday I finished tying and training all 1700 vines. Well actually about 1650 I think since I have lost a few entirely in 5 years. This is the first time ever I think that I have done all the pruning, tying and training entirely by myself, and it gave me personal time with every row, and practically every plant to at least access condition and decide if it needed any work. Chiva supervised the entire time, and still refuses to the chew off the low lying suckers, which is still undone where they exist. I will leave them a few more weeks in case I need one of those shoots for a vine or cordon recovery.

My Cub Cadet got an upgrade. The shop quoted me around $1000 to repair and restore the old one, so I told them to keep it and sell me a new one. Still Cub Cadet but their mid tier with more oomph and commercial-type equipment vs. the big box store version I had before. Now Tax Deductable! I got a slightly narrower deck 46" vs 54", trimmed off the grass chute to avoid vine contact, and mowed the whole vineyard in about an hour. The new machine matches my row width better and seems like a sturdier machine overall too. A few tricky spots still but I know my hill pretty well by now, so I know when to lean which way and where to hang on. Chiva doesn't like the mower because she can't "help".

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Post #: 1173

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/8/2020 12:49:55 PM

Franklin 10

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From: Indianapolis
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_____________________________

the Empirate

"Jim Harrison, northern Michigan's favorite son and food lover, once told me, 'One of the main causes of premature death is fretting about your diet.' He then topped up my glass of wine."
-abra berens

(in reply to ChrisinCowiche)

Post #: 1174

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/8/2020 6:18:23 PM

khmark7

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From: Chicago suburbs
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I tell you....tonight's gonna be nervous watching the temps. Already 36 degrees at dusk after a brisk sunny day with mostly sunny skies. We will be flirting with disaster.

Frost blankets up over a few vines, and potted plants moved indoors.

_____________________________

"a rogue Provence rouge of unknown provenance." author grafstrb

(in reply to Franklin 10)

Post #: 1175

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/8/2020 8:01:01 PM

Franklin 10

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From: Indianapolis
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Thoughts with you both and congratulations, Chris, on the Cub Cadet upgrade. I bet you get a lot of satisfaction over the coming years getting more work done on less time and fewer worries about the machine. I’ve been on the same John Deere 2210 since 2004, still going strong but do indulge the upgrade fantasy from time to time.

Looks like it could be a frost tonight here too, Karl, maybe even a few degrees colder in Indy. I’ve brought my garden starts back in, glad I didn’t put them this week like I had planned. The onions and other bulbs and the tubers are still close enough to the ground, I hope/expect they’ll be OK.

Surprised no one “gets” the Fleetwood Mac reference. The thread title has been triggering that song for me since whenever you started it.

Best,

- Franklin

_____________________________

the Empirate

"Jim Harrison, northern Michigan's favorite son and food lover, once told me, 'One of the main causes of premature death is fretting about your diet.' He then topped up my glass of wine."
-abra berens

(in reply to khmark7)

Post #: 1176

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/9/2020 5:22:40 AM

lafeeverted

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From: New Jersey
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Ha! Now I cant get it out of my head! Briefly hit freezing temps last night but no apparent damage this morning.

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Post #: 1177

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/10/2020 1:23:50 PM

ChrisinCowiche

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From: Cowiche, WA
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quote:

Surprised no one “gets” the Fleetwood Mac reference. The thread title has been triggering that song for me since whenever you started it.

You know, I felt like I was missing something for sure with those obviously being lyrics, then the giant photo of Bobby Darin playing a guitar got me completely confused. He must have replaced Lindsey during his years away from Fleetwood Mac.

Thanks for the moral and musical support Franklin!

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/12/2020 8:33:44 AM

lafeeverted

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Planted 5 more cab franc vines. Had a little mishap with the rototiller and a root running just below the surface. Not severed. Tied the split and reburied it.

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Post #: 1179

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/21/2020 5:12:12 AM

lafeeverted

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An Attempt At Incorporating Biodynamic Methods In My Tiny Vineyard Plot

I am currently a WSET Diploma student and recently shared this with my class as it was relevant to some of our recent discussions and thought it might be entertaining at least for some of you here as well.

I have a couple word documents w/pics that are available if anyone would like to see them. One was meant to explain some basic ideas of growth and pruning methods. The info is nothing new but during the conversation I was having trying to explain the concepts to another student, it struck me that if you haven't actually seen some of this up close it is not always easy to visualize and understand. The other is my Vintage log that details what is happening week to week and eventually the wine making process. Nothing in here is meant to be instructional and if in fact anyone has corrections or pointers please let me know.

I attempt to grow grapes and make wine from my backyard "vineyard" in Central NJ. I now have 12 Cab franc vines planted, just 4 of them producing fruit at the moment.They were planted in 2006 along with 4 sauv blanc vines. After a couple unsuccessful attempts at grafting the SB over to CF I dug them up and replanted 4 more CF vines last year. This year I added 4 more.

NJ is not a very conducive place for Biodynamic Viticulture as our disease pressure can be quite high with the amount and timing of rains as well as the humid summers! In spite of this I decided to make an attempt to implement some BioD methods this year.

In the past I have had a terrible time with black rot. It has completely wiped out my grapes the last two years. Growing grapes has certainly been a learning curve and I misidentified what I was dealing with and was not diligent enough in the past to spray accordingly. All of these concepts are even more apparent now with the DipWSET studies and it is like having a classroom in the backyard. Definitely a learning process!

The other biggest issues here have been Downy Mildew, mites that aren't too destructive and birds! One year I had grapes one day and the next total destruction! Netting now goes up early, LOL!

We do have some respectable vineyards in NJ only a couple miles from where I am but here this is just your typical fertile "Garden State" soil. The vines love it for growth, not so great for quality fruit production, my vines are quite vigorous. This requires a lot of hedging which of course also causes lateral shoot and leaf growth which has to be dealt with. I thought I would try increasing the crop load to try to get some balance. My plan was to establish upper and lower cordons and train the vines vertically and horizontally. Black rot wiped me out again last year and needless to say that was quite frustrating to watch what looked like an excellent crop early on shrivel up and die one day to the next.

At this point I was pretty sure that the Rot was overwintering in the cordons so I made the decision to transition over to Guyot and eventually get to Guyot Poussard next year. I went in this winter and cut the cordons out, retaining the canes for this year which were bent down for this seasons fruit. It is much easier to transition from guyot to cordon rather than what I did in reverse. You remove a big carbohydrate store and this was quite apparent as this years bud burst and slow shoot growth at the start was quite noticeable.

How I got to BioD....Once I had removed the cordons I was back to how to deal with the vigor. I decided to plant cover crops and other things to increase the competition for the vines to try to slow them down just a bit. I had listened to a number of podcasts that highlighted regenerative farming and the importance of soil health and thought that even though I am dealing with fertile soils building a better microbiological subsurface could only improve the end result (I hope!)

I really did not want to be burying cow horns and I don't have space, plan or desire to add livestock so initially I didn't consider BIoD as an option but I was curious. Through some research I did find that the Preparations were available on line for home use in small quantities. Once I discovered that I went all in as much as possible.

I ordered the Preps #500 /2-7, 501 and 508. I planted cover crops between my rows. I planted herbs directly beneath the vines. I planted wildflowers and other bee and hummingbird friendly plants in the area. I set up a composting bin. I have Neem Oil, Copper, Sulfur and Biological Serenade (Bacillus Subtilis) as fungicides. (Previously I had been using the Copper and Sulfur as well as Immunox.)

I dynamized my first round of the 500 Field and Garden Spray by hand. I will never do that again! After 1 hour of reverse vortex creating stirring my arms ached, now I use a drill and paint stirrer.

The experiment has begun.......

If anyone is local and would like to take a closer look you are more than welcome. Plenty of outside space to maintain social distancing!

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Post #: 1180

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/21/2020 4:06:06 PM

khmark7

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From: Chicago suburbs
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Birds don't remove grapes, they peck holes in them. Raccoons will remove grapes overnight, and getting rid of raccoons is difficult and sometimes expensive if you hire a critter guy. Bird netting is mostly useless for raccoons.

Black rot is tough using purely organic type sprays like Copper & Sulfur....and New Jersey like Illinois is brutal with it's temps & humidity. Good luck on the BioD, but that's better suited for dryer environments like California, Washington, parts of France and Spain. I have had great luck with Immunox preventing black rot.

Also, fertile soil doesn't work well with vinifera. It just doesn't work....period. I have some super clay soil in my front yard where my Gewurztraminer is growing and that appears ok, but the Merlot grew like crazy. If you have fertile soil grow something else like the dozens of high quality new varieties or the French hybrids, many whom make great wines.

Ultimately i grow the vines just for fun. There are just too many raccoons in the city and they destroy my crop each and every year. In the country you can eliminate this problem, but not in my area.

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"a rogue Provence rouge of unknown provenance." author grafstrb

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Post #: 1181

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/22/2020 5:19:37 AM

lafeeverted

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From: New Jersey
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Ha, nope it was birds LOL! I looked out the back window one day at it was "What the H!" they were all over. Enough damage was done to forget the crop that year. I have blueberries and black raspberries as well in the area and they love them too. I gave up on the blueberries unless I net them and that is not an option with my dogs in the yards. I worked out a system for the grapes so that the netting is off the ground.

Immunox was my go to in the past and I have no issue going back to it if it just a losing battle. I learned that the spraying has to start early well before there is any sign to help mitigate the infection. Once it is in the flowers/grapes it is all over...

Thankfully I also do this just for fun and therefore I can experiment with a number of different techniques, training methods, grafting, the BioD concepts etc.... If they don't work out I move on and have some first hand experience with the process.

Surprisingly the wine I have made was quiet enjoyable and showed some varietal character. By no stretch was it high quality but it was decent enough to stick with the CF for sure.

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Post #: 1182

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/22/2020 4:42:08 PM

khmark7

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From: Chicago suburbs
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I love Cabernet Franc, and if i owned land somewhere like along the shores of Lake Michigan it would be the first grape i planted, followed by Pinot Noir, Pinot Gris, Gewurztraminer and Blaufrankisch.

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"a rogue Provence rouge of unknown provenance." author grafstrb

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Post #: 1183

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/27/2020 1:41:55 PM

khmark7

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From: Chicago suburbs
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Interesting how the vines grown here get back on schedule so fast, especially with a few nice days. Several of my vines appear to be ready for bloom when only a week ago they looked 2 weeks behind schedule. Rapid growth due to our rainfall and warm temps. Shoot thinning very important and even at this stage you are looking for those canes that are growing in the direction you need for next years growth.

After last year's frost reduced vintage my yard is looking full thus far.

_____________________________

"a rogue Provence rouge of unknown provenance." author grafstrb

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Post #: 1184

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 6/5/2020 8:50:50 AM

Vino Me

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From: Chicago/South Haven, MI
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The Pinot Noir looks very healthy and has recovered nicely from a devastating Polar Vortex winter in 2018/2019. I didn't get any crop last year. Very little vine damage from the mild 2019/2020 winter. Should have a very good crop based on what I'm seeing.

This also looks like the first year I will get grapes on my Clone 943 Pinot Noir. I should also get some fruit from the Riesling vines I planted 3 years ago as they all show signs of flowering.

With respect to organic farming, it is very difficult to do in Southwest Michigan. I am trying to be more organic by using more sulfur, Bordeaux mixture and neem oil but am realistic and have to incorporate fungicides from time to time.

VM

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 6/5/2020 3:44:30 PM

khmark7

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My vines are flowering currently....and with the mix of vines it usually lasts a few weeks. Seems we are about 1 week off schedule, and that isn't bad considering our crappy April. Thus far very heavy growth and flowering, which i expected because 2019 was polar vortex & frost damaged.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 6/9/2020 9:50:17 AM

Vino Me

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quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7
My vines are flowering currently....and with the mix of vines it usually lasts a few weeks. Seems we are about 1 week off schedule, and that isn't bad considering our crappy April. Thus far very heavy growth and flowering, which i expected because 2019 was polar vortex & frost damaged.

Did you get any grapes last year?

VM

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 6/9/2020 1:38:40 PM

lafeeverted

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It's been a busy couple weeks here with spraying, bad weather (heat, humidity, rain) and a new pest thrown in the mix just to make it interesting!

The new pest - I believe that it is the Grape Flea Beetle. I have never seen that before, didn't even know it existed. saw them on a few vines a few weeks ago and they went away only to reappear in the destructive form of newly hatched larvae that eat the leaves and infloroscences voraciously! I had just sprayed sulfur to eradicate the lingering mites so I could not follow that with Neem Oil. My immediate option was to pick the larvae off the leaves and destroy them (ie squish!). Carefully removing them from the infloroscences was a little trickier but done. I found a product containing Spinosad that is supposed to be helpful. I sprayed that and continued to pick the remaining worms off and out of the bunches. Seems to be pretty successful as at this point I may see one a day. Unfortunately they did some damage in the short period of time they were there.

With the heat , humidity and heavy rain my old nemesis "Black Rot" appeared. The weather pattern kept me from spraying copper as it would just wash off so it may have opened the door. As soon as it cleared I got a good spray of Serenade and copper on the vines and bunches. I have not seen it spreading since then but one never knows.

Flowering started today as temps hit 90. Looks dry for the next week or so with a chance of rain tomorrow but that is early enough in the cycle that I wouldn't expect it to negatively impact things.

< Message edited by lafeeverted -- 6/9/2020 1:42:47 PM >

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 6/9/2020 7:29:50 PM

khmark7

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From: Chicago suburbs
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vino Me

quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7
My vines are flowering currently....and with the mix of vines it usually lasts a few weeks. Seems we are about 1 week off schedule, and that isn't bad considering our crappy April. Thus far very heavy growth and flowering, which i expected because 2019 was polar vortex & frost damaged.

Did you get any grapes last year?

VM

Vm - Yes, surprisingly some vines still pushed buds even after the primary and secondary buds were damaged by frost, and even more surprisingly some vines still had a respectable crop. I managed to make a few gallons of a very tasty Beaujolais styled red wine.

_____________________________

"a rogue Provence rouge of unknown provenance." author grafstrb

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Post #: 1189

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 6/11/2020 11:04:00 AM

lafeeverted

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From: New Jersey
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Spotted Lanternfly nymph sighting on one of my vines today, its going to be a long summer!

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Post #: 1190

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 6/11/2020 3:31:16 PM

peeks13

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From: Wilmette, IL
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Karl, my Canadice and Reliance vines are in the ground about a month now and growing just fine - each has multiple shoots growing off the main wood but no main stem established. How should I prune these for the first year? My only experience is with vinifera so are these treated differently? Grape clusters already present but no flowering yet.

< Message edited by peeks13 -- 6/11/2020 3:33:10 PM >

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 6/11/2020 4:38:35 PM

khmark7

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Joined: 7/6/2008
From: Chicago suburbs
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quote:

ORIGINAL: peeks13

Karl, my Canadice and Reliance vines are in the ground about a month now and growing just fine - each has multiple shoots growing off the main wood but no main stem established. How should I prune these for the first year? My only experience is with vinifera so are these treated differently? Grape clusters already present but no flowering yet.

Just let them grow this summer, 1-2 main trunks are fine. I typically cane prune these....they will not produce well if you spur prune. Reliance is a really pretty vine....elegant leaves.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 4/28/2022 5:03:52 PM

peeks13

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OK Karl, browsing through Lowe's and a whole new stock of grape vines has come in and I have room for 1 or 2 reds. Can you give me your thoughts on:

Bluebell
Frontenac
Valiant
Concord
Marquette

Thanks

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/10/2022 5:38:13 PM

khmark7

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From: Chicago suburbs
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quote:

ORIGINAL: peeks13

OK Karl, browsing through Lowe's and a whole new stock of grape vines has come in and I have room for 1 or 2 reds. Can you give me your thoughts on:

Bluebell
Frontenac
Valiant
Concord
Marquette

Thanks

All these require some space and your classic "high wire" trellis system, not the European style you see in France. When i mean space i'm talking about a good 10 feet.
Bluebell is a nice grape jelly styled vine similar to Concord only earlier and more cold hardy. Otherwise very similar.
Valiant is designed for the western growing regions and it has poor resistance to mildew, hence a drier climate is best. Grape jelly best use.
Frontenac and Marquette are nice wine grapes. Marquette is early to bud break, early to veraison and early to harvest, but never needs spraying. Both are vigorous and the Frontenac has large clusters, the Marquette smaller clusters. Overall Frontenac is a beast....vigorous, cold resistant up into central Canada and very reliable producing, even if zapped by frost. Frontenac will need to hang late into September for proper ripening, so consider that. Frontenac Gris makes excellent sparkling wine and it's the base for my backyard sparkler that is shockingly pleasant and drinkable if i say so myself.

Just had bud break here with several varieties, but it's 90!!!! We are still very behind schedule in my area.

_____________________________

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/11/2022 2:27:58 AM

Echinosum

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Last two years I have had powdery mildew on my Phoenix (white). Destroyed it. It was fine the previous 12 years. Meanwhile my Regent (red) has been fine. It is much less leafy than the Phoenix, so maybe that reduces the risk. I do regularly prune excess leaves off the vines as they grow, eventually doing a 90% deleafing late in the season to expose the bunches to ripening. But by then the developing berries were already destroyed. Both are grown trained on wires on south-facing walls. Both are supposed to be mildew-resistant varieties suitable for cool, damp climates such as we have in south-eastern England.

Apparently we are no longer allowed to buy/use copper sulphate or similar as a fungicide as amateur gardeners, this side of the Atlantic. So no Bordeaux mix in the shop. Indeed it is hard getting any kind of fungicide for edible crops any more.

I have succeeded in finding some sulphur fungicide, which has only recently been released onto the market for amateurs. But it's an absolutely ridiculous price. Wholesale sulphur is $450/ton on the international market (assuming that "sulphur" for horticultural fungicide is indeed sulphur and not some compound they inaccurately call sulphur), but as a garden fungicide I have to pay £12 for less than an ounce.

Anyway, that is what I could buy without trying to see if I could make something myself from non-horticultural supplies.

So I gave the Phoenix a spray with the sulphur when the shoots were about 2 to 4 leaves long. I think somewhere said "at bud break" would have been better, but it took me a while to research the fungicide situation and find anything at all. Can anyone tell me what stages of growth in general I should spray it at?

And should I just go out and buy myself some copper sulphate from a non-horticultural source? I think you can buy it on-line. How would I mix it?

And what exactly is "sulphur" for spraying on vines? Can I also just buy some non-horticultural sulphur and make myself Bordeaux Mix?

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Post #: 1195

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/11/2022 7:05:30 AM

ChrisinCowiche

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From: Cowiche, WA
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quote:

And what exactly is "sulphur" for spraying on vines? Can I also just buy some non-horticultural sulphur and make myself Bordeaux Mix?

I buy this product... https://www.militellofarmsupply.com/shop/microthiol-disperss-fungicide/. It is a finely ground elemental sulfur that has 20% "other ingredients", very helpful I know. I suspect those ingredients are a talc or some other type of mineral finely ground to improve the flow and dispersion/mixing in water properties of the sulfur. Elemental sulfur is a bright yellow solid, this stuff is yellow but duller, which is what make me think it's a gray or white mineral mixed in. The challenge with
commercial/industrial Sulfur, which I'd take to mean elemental S in solid, sometimes shipped molten, form is the particle size needed to get into a solution. I know WA state has training and certification for commercial applicators, and with that you can buy the right stuff. Often there is a work around.

< Message edited by ChrisinCowiche -- 5/11/2022 7:16:49 AM >

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/12/2022 3:56:52 AM

khmark7

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From: Chicago suburbs
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum

Last two years I have had powdery mildew on my Phoenix (white). Destroyed it. It was fine the previous 12 years. Meanwhile my Regent (red) has been fine. It is much less leafy than the Phoenix, so maybe that reduces the risk. I do regularly prune excess leaves off the vines as they grow, eventually doing a 90% deleafing late in the season to expose the bunches to ripening. But by then the developing berries were already destroyed. Both are grown trained on wires on south-facing walls. Both are supposed to be mildew-resistant varieties suitable for cool, damp climates such as we have in south-eastern England.

Apparently we are no longer allowed to buy/use copper sulphate or similar as a fungicide as amateur gardeners, this side of the Atlantic. So no Bordeaux mix in the shop. Indeed it is hard getting any kind of fungicide for edible crops any more.

I have succeeded in finding some sulphur fungicide, which has only recently been released onto the market for amateurs. But it's an absolutely ridiculous price. Wholesale sulphur is $450/ton on the international market (assuming that "sulphur" for horticultural fungicide is indeed sulphur and not some compound they inaccurately call sulphur), but as a garden fungicide I have to pay £12 for less than an ounce.

Anyway, that is what I could buy without trying to see if I could make something myself from non-horticultural supplies.

So I gave the Phoenix a spray with the sulphur when the shoots were about 2 to 4 leaves long. I think somewhere said "at bud break" would have been better, but it took me a while to research the fungicide situation and find anything at all. Can anyone tell me what stages of growth in general I should spray it at?

And should I just go out and buy myself some copper sulphate from a non-horticultural source? I think you can buy it on-line. How would I mix it?

And what exactly is "sulphur" for spraying on vines? Can I also just buy some non-horticultural sulphur and make myself Bordeaux Mix?

You can buy whatever you want in the USA, and although our varieties that grow well in the upper Midwest are more mildew resistant, there is also more humidity and rainfall, so it evens out. I don't worry much about powdery mildew until July. Perhaps instead of sulfur you could use some of those oil sprays that are good to suppress PM. I have some Stylet oil that i occasionally use. Copper is best for preventing Downy Mildew, and Sulfur is best to preventing/stopping Powdery Mildew. So i would consider spraying the sulfur starting in July/August going into September, but remember it gets washed off by rainfall, so you would need to apply often. The refined oil sprays may be more water resistant, and you CANNOT USE SULFUR IF YOU CHOOSE TO SPRAY WITH ANY OILS. Typically i only spray once before bloom and then i spray to prevent black rot after bloom, which is a manageable problem. Animals/insects are my biggest challenge to keep off the vines.

I also have Regent (one vine). It's a nice vine that has good cold tolerance.

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Post #: 1197

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/13/2022 1:18:16 AM

Echinosum

Posts: 599
Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
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Thanks for your replies, I understand much better now. If I could get some bulk sulphur cheaply, I'm not sure I'd want to be putting it through my coffee grinder to get it finely ground, though maybe that is not such a stupid idea.

The source I read suggested that the powdery mildew spores hang about, if you had it bad last year, so that's why I should spray early before any sign of it. An awful lot of rubbish is written by people trying to get you to use their product, so I don't know if that is folly.

Then, as you say, the main devastation occurs in high summer, and obviously I have to catch it before it gets like that.

(in reply to khmark7)

Post #: 1198

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/13/2022 8:29:19 AM

ChrisinCowiche

Posts: 7845
Joined: 12/16/2009
From: Cowiche, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum

Thanks for your replies, I understand much better now. If I could get some bulk sulphur cheaply, I'm not sure I'd want to be putting it through my coffee grinder to get it finely ground, though maybe that is not such a stupid idea.

The source I read suggested that the powdery mildew spores hang about, if you had it bad last year, so that's why I should spray early before any sign of it. An awful lot of rubbish is written by people trying to get you to use their product, so I don't know if that is folly.

Then, as you say, the main devastation occurs in high summer, and obviously I have to catch it before it gets like that.

quote:

Thanks for your replies, I understand much better now. If I could get some bulk sulphur cheaply, I'm not sure I'd want to be putting it through my coffee grinder to get it finely ground, though maybe that is not such a stupid idea. The source I read suggested that the powdery mildew spores hang about, if you had it bad last year, so that's why I should spray early before any sign of it. An awful lot of rubbish is written by people trying to get you to use their product, so I don't know if that is folly. Then, as you say, the main devastation occurs in high summer, and obviously I have to catch it before it gets like that.

Coffee grinder Sulfur might be the next new fad! Obviously (maybe) there are health hazards with this stuff, you don't want to breath too much of it, nor really get excessive skin contact. I will say once I was diagnosed with a skin fungal infection and the (old, really old) doctor prescribed a sulfur bath concoction that you sprayed on. This was 20 years before I started growing grapes. First time I sprayed the sulfur I mention above in my vineyard, the aroma and color of the overspray on my legs and arms was EXACTLY like the prescription potion the old doctor had used. The prescription 25 years ago worked and it works in vineyards too. The stuff kills mold/fungus!

On when to spray, I definitely agree/know spores carry year to year in the wood. If you have a block/variety that is severely infected, the only long term remedy might be to prune to the ground and re-start from root suckers. If you don't want to be that drastic, a heavy yellow coating of the whole trunk and cordon before any leaves emerge would be next suggestion. Fall would be a good time to do that, but even spring (now) would not hurt, imo. Spraying the bud and leaves is good, too. Yes, you can add too much, but the effect in the mid term is an over sulfured wine, that may become reductive/skunky just because of all the S in the stew. But if the plant is badly infected the way you describe though, you have low chance of ever getting ANY useful fruit unless you do something to alter the path.

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Post #: 1199

RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 5/14/2022 5:35:42 AM

Echinosum

Posts: 599
Joined: 1/28/2021
From: Buckinghamshire, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisinCowiche
Coffee grinder Sulfur might be the next new fad! Obviously (maybe) there are health hazards with this stuff, you don't want to breath too much of it, nor really get excessive skin contact. I will say once I was diagnosed with a skin fungal infection and the (old, really old) doctor prescribed a sulfur bath concoction that you sprayed on. This was 20 years before I started growing grapes. First time I sprayed the sulfur I mention above in my vineyard, the aroma and color of the overspray on my legs and arms was EXACTLY like the prescription potion the old doctor had used. The prescription 25 years ago worked and it works in vineyards too. The stuff kills mold/fungus!

On when to spray, I definitely agree/know spores carry year to year in the wood. If you have a block/variety that is severely infected, the only long term remedy might be to prune to the ground and re-start from root suckers. If you don't want to be that drastic, a heavy yellow coating of the whole trunk and cordon before any leaves emerge would be next suggestion. Fall would be a good time to do that, but even spring (now) would not hurt, imo. Spraying the bud and leaves is good, too. Yes, you can add too much, but the effect in the mid term is an over sulfured wine, that may become reductive/skunky just because of all the S in the stew. But if the plant is badly infected the way you describe though, you have low chance of ever getting ANY useful fruit unless you do something to alter the path.

That's all very helpful, thanks.

Sulphur is non-toxic to humans, but can be a skin irritant. It is described as "hazardous" as a cargo mainly because it catches fire fairly easily if exposed to a flame. It also melts at only 115C, when it does become quite dangerous.

You can dig the stuff up out of the ground, because it is pretty stable as a solid at environmental temperatures. We were allowed to handle it when I was at high school, though of course many things you did in the 1970s at high school are now prevented for good reason.

Its environmental stability in general does make me wonder how it succeeds in working as a fungicide.

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Post #: 1200