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Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 7:15:01 AM   
Eduardo787

 

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So, yesterday at the tasting with a few marsupials and my son we had 3 wines : a fantastic ( incredible) 2018 Domaine De Chevalier, a La croix De Ducru B 2018 that was incredibly closed but as the night went it was better and better, and a 2016 Chateau Musar 2016 that was decanted 4 hours prior.

I am not going to talk about the other wines other than the Musar. For me it was a VERY weird wine that reminded me of other very weird wines that I particularly love , but that I know many ( maybe the majority of people) would actually not drink. I remember dinner with the Seattle crew and definitely Bionic frog came to mind. Not a wine to please everyone at all. Then I remembered my beloved Vina Tondonia that is also an extremely strange wine ( what I mean strange is that it is not what most casual drinkers expect from a wine).

Yesterday I was the only one in love with Musar, not because it was delicious, but because I was tasting things I never tasted before. It was not a textbook wine to say it in a more comprehensible way. But my friends actually did not liked it, it was too much funk, VA, and earthy vegetable stew ( I have no idea how to explain it) and also a very strange smell of rubber ballon ! It was like driving a Fiat Multipla and loving it

So, I was wondering if there are also some other wines that any of you have tried that are kind of special in their own way. Musar and Tondonia are extremely rewarded by serious wine drinkers, but if you give them to a casual drinker they might spit it out.

Now , this is my OWN take, I could be wrong, but this is what I have experienced with my friends and they actually drink wine a few times a month but way less than me. And no, I am not talking about a wine being sweet, I am talking about flavors and experiences that you dont expect in a wine.

What other wines are out there like this ones ?

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 8:05:29 AM   
BornToRhone

 

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Musar can indeed be a different character of wine (vintage and age dependent).

Other wines which can have some similar funky or barnyardy character are:
- Northern Rhone syrahs
- Rocks District (Oregon/Washington) syrahs.
- some aged burgundy.

Tondonia reds are not so unusual to me, but Tondonia whites have a waxy, oxidized character I enjoy.
Sherries are also a learned attraction.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 8:29:59 AM   
ChrisinCowiche

 

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+1 on Rocks of Milton-Freewater, Oregon. It took me a long time to ferret out those that I enjoyed vs. avoided. Longer for my wife to find ones she enjoys. Most she still does not. Syrah mainly, but also grenache, cab, tempranillo...

Mourvedre that is animal driven. Gamey, earthy, and sometimes funky. I love it.

Barolo/Barbaresco, big boy wines with tar, tannins, rose. Not your daily grocery store wine that a casual drinker would migrate to.

Pegau, ask KPB to explain this one. Other funky, bretty CdP.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 9:04:21 AM   
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Curious that nobody has mentioned retsina. I haven’t drunk it in over 30 years, so have no idea what a modern rendering would be. I was not keen

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 10:00:31 AM   
Jenise

 

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Eduardo, there's hope for you yet.

Two years ago I'd have said you and I just don't like the same wines. I might have added "...and never will" but hearing your excitement about detecting "things I've never tasted before" especially with regard to a majestic wine like Musar--well, that's huge! I know people who would not love this kind of wine. They like new world wines. They like that initial sweetness, they like big and simple flavors, and they don't notice let alone object to 15% (or more alcohols). Gobby wines (referring here to Parker's famous praise of "gobs of hedonistic fruit", which I recall without remembering the target) are good, complexity not neccessary and nuance not welcome. Their idea of a special wine would be Orin Swift The Prisoner (which I detest), not Musar. And they'd probably prefer Apothic Red. Musar is a true afficionado's wine--welcome to the club.

< Message edited by Jenise -- 1/21/2024 2:57:41 PM >

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 10:17:09 AM   
Claymonster

 

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My understanding is that Musar takes ages to come around and there is a lot of bottle variation. Plus plenty of bretty funk and VA. I've only tried it once about five years ago and it was far too young. I do have a single bottle of the 2016 in my cellar that will slumber for many years, so I'm glad to hear that you liked yours. You're right though - not for everyone.

To the list I'd add Nicolas Joly's wines. And any pinotage. Gewurz too.

I don't find LdH Tondonia to be that unique. Delicious yes, but I'd certainly classify the reds as a mainstream staple.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 10:40:39 AM   
recotte

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jenise

Eduardo, there's hope for you yet.

Two years ago I'd have said you and I just don't like the same wines. I might have added "...and never will" but hearing your excitement about detecting "things I've never tasted before" especially with regard to a majestic wine like Musar--well, that's huge! I know people who would not love this kind of wine. They like new world wines. They like that initial sweetness, they like big and simple flavors, and they don't notice let alone object to 15% (or more alcohols). Gobby wines (referring here to Parker's famous praise of "gobs of hedonistic fruit", which I recall without remembering the target. Complexity and nuance are not welcome. Their idea of a special wine would be Orin Swift The Prisoner (which I detest), not Musar. Musar is a true afficionado's wine--welcome to the club.


I had this same reaction on reading Eduardo's post! Cheers, Eduardo! Musar is one of the world's great wines (in my opinion), but is definitely polarizing.

In addition to what others have noted (I particularly agree with Nicolas Joly--shout out to thesternowl for cluing me into those), I'd add Sagrantino (a bottle of which made me fall in love with wine, so gorgeously, almost painfully tannic in their youth, but screaming of sense of place), Vin Jaune (somewhat akin to sherry), and orange wine (I enjoy them; my girlfriend thinks they're some of the worst things she's ever tasted, wine or otherwise). In general, I think whites made in a more oxidative style are less approachable for the general public, as they can stray pretty far from what most expect a white wine "should" taste like.


Edit: I would also add that older wines are not for everybody. As Eduardo's other recent thread illustrates, even in a community like this where everyone is "into wine," really aged wines don't float everyone's boat, but absolutely scratch an itch for others.

< Message edited by recotte -- 1/17/2024 10:46:38 AM >


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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 11:40:26 AM   
Eduardo787

 

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Ok a couple of you mentioned about Tondonia. Let me explain : if you serve Tondonia in a wedding to a large group of people how do you think they will react to that bottle compared to lets say a Muga or even a Clio ? Tondonia is definitely a very old style Rioja, maybe the most classic style there is out there. It might not be such of a strange wine, but it is definitely a little bit polarizing. When I want to bring something special to a friend that knows about wine and we are drinking casually, Tondonia is a safe bet. Not so for anyone that drinks infrequently

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 11:47:50 AM   
Ralphs Bar

 

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I think Grignolino often makes for a polarizing wine. Some wine nerds love it & think it has fascinating characteristics, others find it disappointing.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 11:54:50 AM   
bretrooks

 

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Off-hand, these styles come to mind: Oxidized wines (e.g. sherry), highly tannic wines (e.g. Nebbiolo, Xinomavro), wines with a bretty signature and/or prominent non-fruit funk (Pinotage, Gamay), orange wines, and wines which are austere and/or don't show much fruit (I think of my experience with Hunter Valley Semillon).

It's interesting to me how some preferences are very particularly personal. My mother-in-law, for example, likes big red wines in general but rarely finds a Petite Sirah which she likes...she says they "don't have much flavor" to her.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 12:01:08 PM   
bretrooks

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787

Ok a couple of you mentioned about Tondonia. Let me explain : if you serve Tondonia in a wedding to a large group of people how do you think they will react to that bottle compared to lets say a Muga or even a Clio ? Tondonia is definitely a very old style Rioja, maybe the most classic style there is out there. It might not be such of a strange wine, but it is definitely a little bit polarizing. When I want to bring something special to a friend that knows about wine and we are drinking casually, Tondonia is a safe bet. Not so for anyone that drinks infrequently

With the caveat that I live in a fairly wine-savvy area, I've shared Tondonia Reservas with a few people who aren't deeply into wine, and I've been pleasantly surprised at how it's been received. I wouldn't open it for just anyone, though, and I think a wedding reception wouldn't be a good venue for it (especially considering the bottle variation I've experienced...although moreso with Bosconia). I'd imagine that the whites are more polarizing.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 12:11:29 PM   
penguinoid

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bretrooks
Off-hand, these styles come to mind: Oxidized wines (e.g. sherry), highly tannic wines (e.g. Nebbiolo, Xinomavro), wines with a bretty signature and/or prominent non-fruit funk (Pinotage, Gamay), orange wines, and wines which are austere and/or don't show much fruit (I think of my experience with Hunter Valley Semillon).


I'd agree with these. Orange wines were absolutely going to be top of my list -- I'm on a number of Facebook groups for wine enthusiasts, and orange wines are always polarising. Generally, whenever they're mentioned, at least one person will say that they've tried one or two and disliked them, and therefore won't try any more.

Natural wines in general are also pretty polarising, unfortunately. Some are rather eccentric in their flavours and aromas, but often it's the philosophy as much as the actual wine that is the attraction or the turn-off.

I'd add Savennières to the list of austere wines. Similarly to Hunter Valley Sémillon, it really improves with age.

Vin Jaune has already been mentioned, but should be included with other oxidative (not oxidised) wines such as sherry.

Ironically, one could maybe add high alcohol full bodied wines -- since there are people who definitely don't like that style .

< Message edited by penguinoid -- 1/17/2024 12:12:19 PM >


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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 12:37:01 PM   
Eduardo787

 

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One other grape that comes to mind at least for me is Nerello mascalese. I know many of you like it and I went ahead and bought 4 bottles from $20 to $35. I really hated them all, like very very bad. I dont recall exactly what I did not liked at all, but I believe it was the similarity I find with sangiovese and its high acidity.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 1:18:55 PM   
CranBurgundy

 

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Rivesaltes. It has a strange combination of sweetness and acidity with an exclusive sort of funkiness to it.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 1:23:16 PM   
penguinoid

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787

One other grape that comes to mind at least for me is Nerello mascalese. I know many of you like it and I went ahead and bought 4 bottles from $20 to $35. I really hated them all, like very very bad. I dont recall exactly what I did not liked at all, but I believe it was the similarity I find with sangiovese and its high acidity.


Interesting -- this is not a grape I'd have thought of as being divisive. I've only ever had Nero Mascalese from Etna, but I've always liked them. They are relatively high in acidity, especially given the warmer climate there -- from a cooler climate, I can imagine that it might be too much. I could easily see that someone who didn't like Sangiovese or Pinot noir might dislike them.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 3:28:47 PM   
Jenise

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787
Honestly I don't think it's about the difference between Tondonia and other producers but the difference between old school/traditional and modern. And I don't think drinking frequency has a lot to do with it. I know a lot of people who drink almost daily but their preferences are for modern wines that are both sweeter, simpler, usually oakier and less tannic.


< Message edited by Jenise -- 1/21/2024 3:00:14 PM >

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 5:36:23 PM   
KPB

 

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I love Pegau, yet many people find it too bretty. In fact I loved the 1983 Beaucastel, perhaps the most intense Brett-bomb in winemaking history. Or at least, modern history. Not everyone would have agreed! On the other hand though, I don’t like the oxidized style of the Beaucastel Rousanne VV white, which many people go crazy over. Yet I love the Chave white hermitage, a wine made mostly from Marianne and Rousanne. My wife is just not fond of these. Go figure.

Banyuls, like Rivesaltes, is really weird stuff. Again, I’m on the “don’t get it” side of the fence.

Vin Jaune, from Arbois. A wine intended to pair with deep-fried ortelans, a small bird with a foie gras character. One eats the whole thing (except not the feathers). But the beak, bone… and then the Vin Jaune to wash it down.

Then there are a lot of Sonoma Pinot noir reds with a very strange aroma and taste of sasparilla (cola, or root beer, or Dr. Pepper all share some of the same aroma and taste). I seem to be a supertaster for this, because many people simply don’t notice it. I’m told it might be due to a particular kind of French oak barrels, or it could be the Pinot noir clone, or both… not for me, at any rate.

Oh, and Swiss Fendent. You need to grow up drinking it, I think. The Swiss do grow up on it, and drink it by the gallon. My limit is a sip.



< Message edited by KPB -- 1/17/2024 5:39:38 PM >


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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 5:37:27 PM   
KPB

 

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Dup


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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 5:47:28 PM   
BornToRhone

 

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I'll add another wine which I have only tried once, so there may be better ones out there.

Torrentes.

To me, it tasted like a fancy bathroom liquid hand soap, kinda flowery and soapy. Echh!



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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 6:03:33 PM   
khmark7

 

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There are no wines for EVERYBODY. We all have our preferences and appreciate different attributes.

I love Musar.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 8:46:04 PM   
jmcmchi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BornToRhone

I'll add another wine which I have only tried once, so there may be better ones out there.

Torrentes.

To me, it tasted like a fancy bathroom liquid hand soap, kinda flowery and soapy. Echh!




Them’s fighting words

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 10:46:23 PM   
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Well, all wines I don't like are - by definition - not for everybody.

I'd say that Gewürtztraminer wines can put some people off (too much perfume).

But I can't recall or name a specific wine I had that was weird and "not for everybody". Many very intense wines (Napa Cab?) can scare away the more delicate flowers in a group, But I suppose that's sort of the point. That one probably need experience to appreciate the qualities of those wines.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 11:34:12 PM   
recotte

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nwinther

But I can't recall or name a specific wine I had that was weird and "not for everybody". Many very intense wines (Napa Cab?) can scare away the more delicate flowers in a group, But I suppose that's sort of the point. That one probably need experience to appreciate the qualities of those wines.


I chuckled when I read this. I think big Napa Cabs are what many Americans think of as "normal," and they would say that the vast swath of "Old World" wines are what need experience to appreciate. Perspective is everything.




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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/17/2024 11:46:09 PM   
recotte

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: penguinoid

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787

One other grape that comes to mind at least for me is Nerello mascalese. I know many of you like it and I went ahead and bought 4 bottles from $20 to $35. I really hated them all, like very very bad. I dont recall exactly what I did not liked at all, but I believe it was the similarity I find with sangiovese and its high acidity.


Interesting -- this is not a grape I'd have thought of as being divisive. I've only ever had Nero Mascalese from Etna, but I've always liked them. They are relatively high in acidity, especially given the warmer climate there -- from a cooler climate, I can imagine that it might be too much. I could easily see that someone who didn't like Sangiovese or Pinot noir might dislike them.


Does Nerello Mascalese grow anywhere other than Etna? I mean, probably, but.... In any event, if higher acidity isn't your thing, that's going to knock out a number of wines, including Sangiovese, Nerello, Nebbiolo, and cooler climate Pinots.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/18/2024 4:20:58 AM   
penguinoid

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: recotte

quote:

ORIGINAL: penguinoid

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787

One other grape that comes to mind at least for me is Nerello mascalese. I know many of you like it and I went ahead and bought 4 bottles from $20 to $35. I really hated them all, like very very bad. I dont recall exactly what I did not liked at all, but I believe it was the similarity I find with sangiovese and its high acidity.


Interesting -- this is not a grape I'd have thought of as being divisive. I've only ever had Nero Mascalese from Etna, but I've always liked them. They are relatively high in acidity, especially given the warmer climate there -- from a cooler climate, I can imagine that it might be too much. I could easily see that someone who didn't like Sangiovese or Pinot noir might dislike them.


Does Nerello Mascalese grow anywhere other than Etna? I mean, probably, but.... In any event, if higher acidity isn't your thing, that's going to knock out a number of wines, including Sangiovese, Nerello, Nebbiolo, and cooler climate Pinots.


I think it's mostly (90+%) from Etna, though Eduardo mentioned the grape rather than the region.

There is a lot of interest in Australia, and vines have been imported but are still in quarantine. (I thought there were already one or two producers, but this was my mistake. Apparently Chalmers Nursery have been trying to import it for over a decade, but faced issues finding virus-free stock). UC Davis seem to be in the process of registering it and starting to propagate it for production in the US. It's likely it will cope better with increasingly warmer and drier conditions than either Pinot noir or Nebbiolo, and thus might get increasing levels of interest from producers outside Italy.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/18/2024 4:24:53 AM   
penguinoid

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPB

I love Pegau, yet many people find it too bretty. In fact I loved the 1983 Beaucastel, perhaps the most intense Brett-bomb in winemaking history. Or at least, modern history. Not everyone would have agreed! On the other hand though, I don’t like the oxidized style of the Beaucastel Rousanne VV white, which many people go crazy over. Yet I love the Chave white hermitage, a wine made mostly from Marianne and Rousanne. My wife is just not fond of these. Go figure.

Banyuls, like Rivesaltes, is really weird stuff. Again, I’m on the “don’t get it” side of the fence.

Vin Jaune, from Arbois. A wine intended to pair with deep-fried ortelans, a small bird with a foie gras character. One eats the whole thing (except not the feathers). But the beak, bone… and then the Vin Jaune to wash it down.

Then there are a lot of Sonoma Pinot noir reds with a very strange aroma and taste of sasparilla (cola, or root beer, or Dr. Pepper all share some of the same aroma and taste). I seem to be a supertaster for this, because many people simply don’t notice it. I’m told it might be due to a particular kind of French oak barrels, or it could be the Pinot noir clone, or both… not for me, at any rate.

Oh, and Swiss Fendent. You need to grow up drinking it, I think. The Swiss do grow up on it, and drink it by the gallon. My limit is a sip.


Ironically, these are all wines I either enjoy or am keen to try. Unfortunately, maybe precisely because they are divisive, they are hard to find in practice...

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/18/2024 4:35:33 AM   
Echinosum

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: recotte


quote:

ORIGINAL: penguinoid

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eduardo787

One other grape that comes to mind at least for me is Nerello mascalese. I know many of you like it and I went ahead and bought 4 bottles from $20 to $35. I really hated them all, like very very bad. I dont recall exactly what I did not liked at all, but I believe it was the similarity I find with sangiovese and its high acidity.


Interesting -- this is not a grape I'd have thought of as being divisive. I've only ever had Nero Mascalese from Etna, but I've always liked them. They are relatively high in acidity, especially given the warmer climate there -- from a cooler climate, I can imagine that it might be too much. I could easily see that someone who didn't like Sangiovese or Pinot noir might dislike them.


Does Nerello Mascalese grow anywhere other than Etna? I mean, probably, but.... In any event, if higher acidity isn't your thing, that's going to knock out a number of wines, including Sangiovese, Nerello, Nebbiolo, and cooler climate Pinots.

There's plenty of Nerello grown in areas of Sicily outside the Etna DOC, with designations such as Terre Siciliane, and some other local DOCs. But as far as I can see, not outside Sicily. There is a degree of confusion, because there is also the closely related Nerello Capuccio, which is often blended with it, to add colour and alcohol. They are both closely related to Sangiovese.

In general, Italy seems to have quite a lot of high acid, high tannin, red grape varieties. And they can be rather challenging to drink young.

The first bottle of NM I drank, €7 from a Sicilian supermarket, just a generic Terre Siciliane, I found very unpleasant. But I have had something nicer since, that encouraged my interest, and now have a few wines in my cellar. I won't touch them until they are at least 7 years old. Maybe in practice rather more, as I tend to find "drink from" dates rather, er, optimistic. Quite a few people are very enthusiastic about them, but they are distinctive. I think you also have to be careful. A merchant I know sells some rather expensive ones, and several of them have very damning tasting notes on CT, from people who I think know what they are talking about. There does also seem to be some material vintage variability, and I have taken care to buy wines from a good vintage.

They are similar, in some ways, to South African red Cinsault, though this is never as harsh to drink as NM can be. Outside South Africa, it's not a variety much vinified as a varietal red wine. Most of it goes into pink wines, and most of the rest is a minor blending component in Rhone-type wines. These cinsault varietals are not as challenging as NM, but taste a bit distinctly odd if you get them before they are ready. Again, I really didn't like my first bottle, which tasted a bit like bubblegum or candyfloss. But I had 6 of them, and as they aged they developed very attractively, with pinot-like characteristics. The very pale colour also darkened. I have now bought some better ones to lay down for longer.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/18/2024 5:15:24 AM   
Paul852

 

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I haven't drunk a lot of NM - I have TNs on 6 wines, and by far the best of them is a white wine: 2021 Terrazze dell'Etna Terre Siciliane Ciuri (and sub-US$20 to boot)

Although, of course, with his pathological aversion to white wine Eduardo is unlikely ever to taste it!

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/18/2024 8:46:54 AM   
penguinoid

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum
quote:

ORIGINAL: recotte
Does Nerello Mascalese grow anywhere other than Etna? I mean, probably, but.... In any event, if higher acidity isn't your thing, that's going to knock out a number of wines, including Sangiovese, Nerello, Nebbiolo, and cooler climate Pinots.

There's plenty of Nerello grown in areas of Sicily outside the Etna DOC, with designations such as Terre Siciliane, and some other local DOCs. But as far as I can see, not outside Sicily. There is a degree of confusion, because there is also the closely related Nerello Capuccio, which is often blended with it, to add colour and alcohol. They are both closely related to Sangiovese.


Good point, I'd forgotten about these!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echinosum
In general, Italy seems to have quite a lot of high acid, high tannin, red grape varieties. And they can be rather challenging to drink young.


True. This makes sense given the climate and the food. Varieties that keep acidity even in warm conditions would be better suited to most regions here, so likely are preferred for that reason.

I often drink Italian wines a bit younger than is ideal, but I generally find them quite approachable. I guess it depends on individual taste and tolerance for acidity and tannins.

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RE: Which wines are not for everybody ? - 1/18/2024 10:33:52 AM   
recotte

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: penguinoid

There is a lot of interest in Australia, and vines have been imported but are still in quarantine. (I thought there were already one or two producers, but this was my mistake. Apparently Chalmers Nursery have been trying to import it for over a decade, but faced issues finding virus-free stock). UC Davis seem to be in the process of registering it and starting to propagate it for production in the US. It's likely it will cope better with increasingly warmer and drier conditions than either Pinot noir or Nebbiolo, and thus might get increasing levels of interest from producers outside Italy.


This makes a lot of sense to me. It'll be interesting to see where it successfully makes good wine... and whether anyone is brave enough to plant a new vineyard on an active volcano elsewhere in the world.

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