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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/19/2018 4:40:15 PM

khmark7

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Vino Me - How many clusters is that per vine? How would you describe your soil in that vineyard?

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/21/2018 2:31:11 PM

Vino Me

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quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7
Vino Me - How many clusters is that per vine? How would you describe your soil in that vineyard?

I limit my vines to 10-12 clusters per vine. Of course they are only space 3 ft apart so it would be difficult to allow more than that even if I wanted to. The vineyard is extremely sandy with fine mineral content. One end of the vineyard had a noticeable iron content when I planted 4 years ago.

VM

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/21/2018 2:33:51 PM

Vino Me

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khmark got me thinking about something I read recently.

I'm curious about the yield per vine that the winemakers/growers on this board obtain. I was reading the most recent Sine Qua Non mailer and Manfred Krankl opined that the "only meaningful yield measurement" was the yield per vine. Based on the wide range of spacing in vineyards I would agree with him. Krankl stated that the yields per vine in his estate vineyards was 1.72 lbs per vine. I've read an estimate that D'Yquem's yields are about .40 lbs per vine; but, of course, that is for shriveled and botrytised fruit so you would expect them to be extremely low.

Many amateur sites talk about an expectation of 8 lbs per vine or more. That is not what you would be shooting for if you plan to make quality wine. What I recently harvested came out to 3.1 lbs per vine. So what do others here get?

VM

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/21/2018 3:00:58 PM

ChrisinCowiche

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quote:

Many amateur sites talk about an expectation of 8 lbs per vine or more. That is not what you would be shooting for if you plan to make quality wine. What I recently harvested came out to 3.1 lbs per vine. So what do others here get?

Well, as you mention vine spacing is an important factor too. My vines are on 4 foot centers, sometimes a trunk is missing and I've let cordon grow to fill the gap, but that is maybe only 1-2 % of the vineyard. I don't have scales, but I'm estimated 2.5 lb/vine Gewurz, maybe 3 lb/vine on Pinot Noir, a bit higher, maybe 3.5-4 lb/vine on Syrah, Sangio, bigger clusters and more aggressive canopy on the last two as well. Rule of thumb I've heard, and used when I planned how much to plant or what, is about a bottle of wine per vine. 300 vines = 300 bottles = 25 cases = 1 barrel. Only one that still really applies for me is Pinot Noir which I am picking this weekend.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/21/2018 5:22:38 PM

khmark7

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My vines are all types, so i've seen the differences between vigorous new vines and finicky vinifera vines. Soil has a lot to do with crop load and vine growth. My vinifera simply grew too much, even in heavy clay, and the clusters were small, so perhaps 1 lbs per vine? A proper trellis for them would have helped, but maybe someday in a different yard that is possible.

My newer vines, mostly newer varietals can really over crop, so you have to keep them under control. 10-15 lbs per vine is very reasonable, but they grow best in rich soils and can handle the extra crop load. I typically go for 2 clusters per shoot, and try and keep the number of shoots under 40. Some vines have large clusters, and others smaller, so think between 1/6 lbs up to 1/3 lbs each cluster You have to understand each varietal and the crop load it can handle.

This year my vines made a palatable rose and white wine. Nothing special, but considering i am downtown in the middle of the city i am proud. The downside with rose wines is the poor yield from the grapes - almost 20 lbs grapes to 1 gallon of wine.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/21/2018 6:24:19 PM

haggis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vino Me

I ended up harvesting 141 lbs for a Blanc de Noir and Rose' from 45 of the 350 vines that will produce grapes this year. At that yield per vine I should get another 800-900 lbs for my dry Pinot Noir. That is a full barrel. Didn't expect that much this year.

VM

That's awesome, VM! Mrs Haggis says "aloha"

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/25/2018 7:48:07 AM

Vino Me

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quote:

ORIGINAL: haggis

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vino Me

I ended up harvesting 141 lbs for a Blanc de Noir and Rose' from 45 of the 350 vines that will produce grapes this year. At that yield per vine I should get another 800-900 lbs for my dry Pinot Noir. That is a full barrel. Didn't expect that much this year.

VM

That's awesome, VM! Mrs Haggis says "aloha"

Tell your wife I said aloha back. Miss you two.

VM

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/25/2018 7:55:45 AM

Vino Me

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I bottled 11 bottles of my 2018 Pinot Noir Rosé PetNat last night as an experiment. I took precautions in case any of the bottles explode.

VM

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/25/2018 7:58:02 AM

Vino Me

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quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7
The downside with rose wines is the poor yield from the grapes - almost 20 lbs grapes to 1 gallon of wine.

Can you explain this. I get the same yield from the grapes whether I make a rose' wine or red wine.

VM

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/25/2018 5:44:57 PM

khmark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vino Me

quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7
The downside with rose wines is the poor yield from the grapes - almost 20 lbs grapes to 1 gallon of wine.

Can you explain this. I get the same yield from the grapes whether I make a rose' wine or red wine.

VM

With my vines i picked and crushed (within 24 hours), and even using some pectin enzymes the yield was still poor. Now if i ferment the juice on the skins then the grapes break down further and i get much better yields. Different grapes may yield different amounts before and after fermentation. Last year the same vines netted me about 9 gallons, this year it was 3 gallons.

I need to do a better job against the grape berry moth, as it causes a lot of rot in the clusters and loss of yields.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/25/2018 5:47:09 PM

khmark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vino Me

I bottled 11 bottles of my 2018 Pinot Noir Rosé PetNat last night as an experiment. I took precautions in case any of the bottles explode.

VM

How long do the wineries usually wait before bottling their rosé?

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/26/2018 11:51:08 AM

Vino Me

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I won't bottle my still Rose' until March of next year. Most wineries bottle Rose' 6 months to a year after harvest. However, this PetNat is not a still wine. It should be sparkling if I did everything right. It is made using the Ancestral Method (as opposed to the method used in making Champagne) where you bottle the wine at the end of the primary fermentation when the sugar left is about 2-3 brix.

VM

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/26/2018 1:56:30 PM

ChrisinCowiche

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vino Me

I won't bottle my still Rose' until March of next year. Most wineries bottle Rose' 6 months to a year after harvest. However, this PetNat is not a still wine. It should be sparkling if I did everything right. It is made using the Ancestral Method (as opposed to the method used in making Champagne) where you bottle the wine at the end of the primary fermentation when the sugar left is about 2-3 brix.

VM

Fun stuff. What did you use for glass and closure? I've never intentionally made a sparkling wine, but that does not mean I haven't experienced bottle fermentation.

I've never had bottle failure but have popped corks a time or three, most often after sugaring back to taste on white or cherry wine. Various amounts of Potassium Sorbate, filtering, and careful measurements have been defeated by stubborn single cell organisms.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/26/2018 5:14:27 PM

khmark7

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I did a case of sparkling Frontenac Gris last year that turned out pretty good. Basically took a 3 gallon carboy and dissolved 1/2 cup of sugar and added Champagne yeast and bottled in proper bottles, left for 4 months. Easy enough. The sparkling was dry, but still pretty good.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/26/2018 7:11:38 PM

Vino Me

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Champagne bottles and bottle cap closure. I bottled one more bottle of a Blanc de Noir PetNat tonight with a little higher brix (3.5) versus the 2 brix for the Rose'. Wanted to test out a little higher pressure.

VM

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/26/2018 7:21:08 PM

CranBurgundy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vino Me

Wanted to test out a little higher pressure.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/26/2018 8:17:33 PM

jmcmchi

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I remember making a sparkling (what I would now call pet nat) gooseberry wine many years ago in the UK. It was better than the still version

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 9/27/2018 9:51:00 AM

Vino Me

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CranBurgundy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vino Me

Wanted to test out a little higher pressure.

Very possible. Or I could get a gusher when I open the bottle. I put all the bottles in a closed case and then put the case in a galvanized tub in the event a bottle explodes to minimize the cleanup.

VM

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 11/7/2018 8:33:58 AM

Vino Me

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So far none of the PetNat bottles have exploded.

The final count for my 2018 vintage is 18 cases:
1 PetNat Rosé
1 Rosé
1 Blanc de Noir
15 Pinot Noir

VM

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 11/7/2018 9:09:30 AM

CranBurgundy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vino Me

So far none of the PetNat bottles have exploded.

The final count for my 2018 vintage is 18 cases:
1 PetNat Rosé
1 Rosé
1 Blanc de Noir
15 Pinot Noir

VM

Cases? Damn!

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 11/7/2018 4:00:01 PM

khmark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vino Me

So far none of the PetNat bottles have exploded.

The final count for my 2018 vintage is 18 cases:
1 PetNat Rosé
1 Rosé
1 Blanc de Noir
15 Pinot Noir

VM

Only about 3 cases of wine from my yard this year, but i did make about 60 jars of grape jelly

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 11/7/2018 7:26:35 PM

ChrisinCowiche

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vino Me

So far none of the PetNat bottles have exploded.

The final count for my 2018 vintage is 18 cases:
1 PetNat Rosé
1 Rosé
1 Blanc de Noir
15 Pinot Noir

VM

Did you bottle already?

We’re still fermenting, cold stabilizing, clarifying, malo-lactic fermentating. In others words, do nothing.

< Message edited by ChrisinSunnyside -- 11/7/2018 9:47:06 PM >

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 11/9/2018 2:07:59 PM

Vino Me

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChrisinSunnyside

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vino Me

So far none of the PetNat bottles have exploded.

The final count for my 2018 vintage is 18 cases:
1 PetNat Rosé
1 Rosé
1 Blanc de Noir
15 Pinot Noir

VM

Did you bottle already?

We’re still fermenting, cold stabilizing, clarifying, malo-lactic fermentating. In others words, do nothing.

Just waiting like you. Only the PetNat is bottled. I'll bottle the Blanc de noir in January. The Rosé around March and the Red next Summer.

VM

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 11/12/2018 1:07:53 PM

Vino Me

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quote:

ORIGINAL: khmark7
Only about 3 cases of wine from my yard this year

What did you end up making?

VM

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 11/13/2018 11:04:41 AM

khmark7

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Bottled a pleasant Rose, plus some white wine, both from multiple vines. Also bottled 12 bottles of a sparkling wine from the whites. Keep in mind i still have around 20 gallons of wine from grapes i purchased from California that are aging on oak.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 11/13/2018 1:05:25 PM

RobRah

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I have a gallon of my bespoke Dornfelder-Gewurztraminer-Melnik co-fermented blend sitting there now. A sort of rose, or light red. I think I'll rack off the lees and leave it in carboy until spring in case it feels like doing a malo fermentation in spring before bottling. First year I got enough grapes and ripeness to make a wine at all really, out of my three vines in a suburban London garden!

(The Gewurz does really well here - i'm surprised it isn't more widely grown in the UK)

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 11/13/2018 6:35:23 PM

khmark7

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Good point RR, i would think that Gewurztraminer would grow very well in England.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 12/13/2018 1:10:17 PM

Vino Me

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Chris inspired me to try and root some vines over the winter. Last weekend I cut about 20 shoots from the vineyard and will root them over the winter to fill in a few holes and some ends of rows. The own rooted vines should hopefully survive any phylloxera threat since my soil in Michigan is very sandy. May have some extras if the take and if khmark wants them, he can have any leftovers. Not sure how they would do in the loamy soil of Illinois though.

VM

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 12/13/2018 6:30:25 PM

champagneinhand

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Im getting to thd point for Winter vine thinning.

Ive got about 7.5 gallons of Chardonnay doing its malolactic fermentation, while sitting in oak chips. Another 6 gallons of Riesling cellaring. I won’t bottle either until March.

I am probably going to put in some Vidal Blanc at the bottom far corner as my lasn nazi neighbor uses so much herbicide that it’s been bad on any vines as the first level of soils and limestone shelving drain part of his grass into my root system over there. I hope the vidal will be heartier and blend decently into Reisling.

Im dreading bext May when ill be gone for 12 days, as normally thats the time for vine training.

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RE: Growing Your Own Grapes - 12/14/2018 3:42:54 AM

khmark7

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Thinking i will try planting any vinifera vines that i have on order either in a different location in my yard or possibly in some large pots with sandy poor soil composition. I can then pull those pots into the garage for the winter. The soil in my yard is heavy clay in many places, but it was still too rich for the Merlot & Cabernet, and they grew like weeds. Ironic as the Petite Sirah grew pretty well.

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