4/23/24, 12:23 PM - I have enjoyed Cissac for over half a century. It was always slow to come round, indeed vintages from the ‘noughties’ improve considerably after a decade or more. I am still drinking 2005, 09, 10 with pleasure. Some recent vintages perhaps come round quicker because the market won’t wait.The 2011 is drinking absolutely beautifully now, 13 years after the vintage. I did not break into my case until 2024 and feel it was a good decision. This is a class act, given good storage and plenty of time to mature. It still has a good future in my opinion.
10/14/23, 5:49 AM - I don't think we are tasting the same wine. Mine (from the Wine Society in UK) is 100% Chenin Blanc and is not an Orange Wine. I have attached a front and back label and cannot find a wine with the label that (I think) you posted. Yours is clearly from Lubanzi (see cork) but I can’t see a wine with the same label on the Lubanzi website (which doesn’t help much with wine details).
10/8/23, 10:07 AM - Hi. I think you may have entered your review under the wrong wine. This Terre Brulee is a red wine (Syrah/Cinsault blend) with no lemon character. It should have Le Rouge in the title on CT but the Syrah blend is clear from the description lower down the page.There is a separate set of reviews for the Terre Brulee ‘Le Blanc’ which is (lemony) Chenin Blanc.
8/26/23, 7:37 AM - I agree about multiple reviews of a single vintage at the same stage of development. However, I find it helpful if I see a series of reviews of a wine from the same taster spread over a period of years. It is good to have views on a wine’s gradual development to give a guide to best drinking times.Many wines are good when young but change (and usually improve) markedly over time.
7/28/23, 11:26 AM - We have just enjoyed a bottle of the 2009. I have known Cissac for many decades and have learned to be very patient and to have confidence that it will develop over at least a couple of decades if well stored, like yours. Even then, we find that it needs time after opening. It never seems to fade with cellaring but it often disappoints on first opening.
7/28/23, 2:48 PM - I look forward to reading your review when you open it!
7/28/23, 11:30 AM - Thanks for your note. We are still enjoying a bottle of the 2009 and were surprised to find that we also detected marzipan very late on the palate (some 6 hours after decanting). I don't think it was auto-suggestion!
7/23/23, 11:48 PM - Thanks. The CT system has changed a score before with no input from me. I don't understand why.
7/5/23, 1:29 AM - I also thought at first that this wine was made at Château Doisy Daëne but, according to the label, the wine for the Society is actually made at Château Cantegril nearby. I will check the cork from my next bottle!I wondered if the ‘DD’ actually comes from the name of Denis Dubourdieu, the master behind these wines (and many others). He played an enormous role over the years in raising the standards of sweet Bordeaux white wines, not least as Director of the Institute of Wine Sciences at the University of Bordeaux.The Dubourdieu family own both these Chateau plus three more. The more recent wines were made by his sons because, sadly, Denis died in 2016.
6/11/23, 5:39 AM - Hi. Your note said that you liked this wine but your score of 63 suggests otherwise. The Wine Spectator scale (widely used on CellarTracker) has anything below 75 as ‘not recommended’. Even a mediocre wine would be within the 75-79 range.I am drinking this at the moment and find it quite pleasant, given a couple of hours to open a bit.
6/23/23, 8:16 AM - Thanks for your reply. I normally give more attention to people’s detailed comments rather than score because they vary so much.I think the scale I mentioned (and use) is limited, as you say, but many reviewers that I recognise and follow also use it and I get used to where they are coming from.Tasters like Jancis Robinson use a 20 scale but never seem to go beyond 17 plus or minus 1 or 2 points and I find that unhelpful. Decanter and most US reviews use the 100 scale but never seem to include a review of a wine that wouldn’t reach 70+.My ratings cover a limited scale because I do my research before buying and I rarely buy a wine that is poorly rated by tasters and suppliers that I trust or comes from a winemaker that I respect and trust.
3/1/23, 2:22 AM - I have bought some 2020 but will cellar it for quite a while. Perhaps a taste after 5 years like Zorba.I am still drinking John X from 10+ years ago with great pleasure and normally expect to wait that long. However, everybody seems to be making red to come round early these days (including Bordeaux Cru Bourgeois staples that used to need 10-15 yrs to begin to show) so we’ll see.
12/14/22, 1:02 AM - Quite right! I have found before that a change of score can occur between my filling in a number and the number that actually appears on the review (either then or later). A software glitch? I don’t think it is my fat fingers and I do check.It sometimes is a small difference but this was an 11 point error…..Thanks for pointing it out.
11/18/22, 9:59 AM - A shame that you had an ‘out of condition’ bottle. We have just opened another and find it a little different from earlier examples but really very satisfying (and great value after purchasing en primeur).I hope you have more of this vintage and that later bottles turn out better.Like you, I am a great fan of Cissac and we still have many vintages. I always find that Cissac takes longer than Beaumont to come round. Things have changed in the last decade or more, though. I was very pleasantly surprised recently by a 2018 Beaumont that I would not normally have opened so young. It was excellent. Even Cissac seems to be coming round earlier in recent years. Nobody has patience these days when it comes to Claret.Incidentally, I had difficulty storing reds when I lived (for a relatively short time) in Queensland. So did the people who I bought from. I had to return quite a few knackered reds to people who, it turned out, stored them in buildings with metal roofs with no temperature control.You are lucky that Victoria has a more temperate climate!
11/13/22, 6:51 AM - A second bottle a month later was not as good. Less fruit and more apricot skin and almond skin. Bottle variation?
9/5/22, 3:01 PM - Thanks. Yes, it was under screwcap. I only persevered with this bottle because earlier vintages of the John X have given such pleasure well into their second decade of life.
9/6/22, 1:49 AM - I started to appreciate John X with the 2006 vintage. I have now finished off my 2011 and 2102 and am left with 13, 14, 16 which I have yet to taste. I did break with my normal practice and tried a 19 last April (because it has more Merlot in the blend) and found it very disappointing at this early stage. I’ll pace myself and wait a few more years yet for them all.I look forward to reading your note on the 2012 in due course.
9/1/22, 7:29 AM - Thanks! I find ghat Musar can be difficult to judge - a few vintages are great after 24h or more but some do open more quickly. You need to know which is which to risk opening for a tasting or a dinner party (and how far in advance to open)!
8/24/22, 11:58 AM - Hi. I have just tasted this wine (this vintage) with a tasting group of 10 and we enjoyed it very much. I have vintages going back to 2012 which are still impressive (although there is some vintage variation - the 2015 disappointed). Do you think you may have had an ‘off’ bottle? How has it been stored?
8/25/22, 6:02 AM - Thanks for responding, Bob. I agree that you must have had a bad bottle. It could have suffered in transit or storage. I would have corked it as soon as it was clear that it was disappointing and returned it for a refund. I recently returned a very disappointing Chilean Merlot to Waitrose and there was no hesitation in giving a refund for the partly empty bottle and a full bottle bought at the same time.I know many people think that cork is ‘posher’ but I would prefer a Stelvin closure every time. JohnP.s. A quarter bottle of the Max CS remained after our tasting and it was drinking beautifully with a bit of lunch.
6/12/22, 7:55 AM - Thanks, Lou. We bought some more……
6/2/22, 8:42 AM - Mculfsson is spot on. This is too young, yet. It also needs more than 2 hours to open. I also agree that comparison with Bordeaux is totally misplaced. They are very different wines.I am not embarrassed to have just posted a note on the 2003 which perhaps explains a little (and shows just how wrong I was to judge this vintage soon after opening). It is now 6h after opening and the wine is still beginning to show its true quality and character.Older vintages? We are still drinking Musar from the late 1980s and 1990s with great pleasure and increasing appreciation of how the wine develops over decades.I would recommend that you read pages 85-88 (Chapter 5) in ‘Chateau Musar’ published by Academie du Vin in 2020. The description by Serge Hochar of drinking his Musar Blanc 1959 over the course of a week is significant. He describes it being ‘undrinkable’ when first opened but the next day it was ‘amazing’ and it then improved over many days. This not BS. I knew Serge and he was the most genuine and honest winemaker I have ever encountered.I hope this makes sense. I have never opened a bottle of Musar that was too old but I have drunk too much too soon (and too soon after opening) over the years.
6/3/22, 5:46 AM - Thanks for your reply. I have just added to my review of yesterday on the basis of tasting a small sample after 24h. It is definitely showing its class now. It is worth doing what Serge described - taste early and then check its development over hours and days. Not possible in a social setting but the wine comes first! Regards, John.
6/3/22, 9:02 AM - I didn’t decant this time because, after standing upright for a while before opening, I knew this bottle would allow careful pouring without too much hassle. I closed it with a simple Screwpull bottle stopper between pours. I would never leave a bottle open between pours.I perhaps should have double decanted but I am too mean to follow Serge Hochar’s method. He would decant and then rinse out the bottle with some of the same wine before re-filling. I could not bring myself to waste any Musar this way! John.
9/18/21, 3:47 PM - Thanks for your comment and link. I expected more from this wine on the basis of previous tastings over many years. Maybe there is some bottle variation. I have more of this vintage and will check it out over time.
8/22/21, 12:42 AM - Thank you for your comment. I often feel that my notes tend to be too long and detailed so it is good to know that you found it useful. Your own notes on this, and other wines, are always perceptive and helpful. Nice to be able to say that I greatly appreciate your contributions to CT.
4/5/21, 2:03 AM - Thanks for your comment. I thought I had retained one bottle of the ‘02 to check after 2 decades. Sadly, we must have drunk it together with all our early noughties bottles, apart from some remaining ‘04s and ‘05s. Cissac is not made the same way these days. They have followed the trend for ‘earlier gratification’. People don’t have much patience any more.
3/25/21, 3:38 PM - I could see it coming together and getting better after 24h+ and will give the next bottle more time. Thank you for your helpful comment. John.
3/27/21, 1:20 PM - I have taken your views on board and you are correct. Time after opening makes a big difference. Looking back, Vide found the same. I have posted another note and hope that others who are lucky enough to have this wine will take seriously the issue of development after opening. Thanks, John.
3/7/21, 5:03 AM - Oui. Trop jeune. Si en ouvert a ce temps, 24h developpement est necessaire apres ouverture, je pense. Je viens de gouter le 2021 et il est un vin completement different apres un jour. Serge Hochar bu son vieux vin blanc pendant trois ou quatre jours.Pardon ma Francais svp.
12/31/20, 12:50 AM - Thanks for your comment. It is good to find that you agree about the slow 'opening'. I get rather impatient with people (especially those in the wine trade) who don't accept that high quality wine doesn't show its qualities as soon as it is opened. There was a ridiculous article in The Times of London in May 2020 under the heading 'Let the wine breathe? It's just a waste of drinking time' including comments from wine writers who should have known better. At least they published my rebuttal but the idea persists. The real value of so much wine is wasted because of 'popping and pouring'. Sorry - this is one of my pet topics....
12/31/20, 1:56 AM - Thanks, again. I was surprised that The Times actually published my rebuttal but they did edit it in order to deflect my gentle criticism away from their wine critic.They retained my key comment (taken from the excellent book ‘Chateau Musar. The Story of a Wine Icon’).The late, great Serge Hochar of Chateau Musar (Decanter's first 'Man of the Year') had a 'Philosophy of Slowness' and described how to take time to let the wine unravel after opening: 'taste it now, then again a few hours later'. He memorably tasted a bottle of his 1959 Musar Blanc and found it undrinkable at first (to his palate) but the next day, it was 'amazing'. Over a week, time and oxygen 'played their tunes' and it evolved and expanded over 7 days, gained flavours, and became more delicious than ever.Not to be applied to your average supermarket wine but with a quality wine (and Serge, like many fine wine makers, never filtered his wines) he hits the nail on the head.Who could disagree with the great man?
11/4/20, 1:33 PM - I just wish to add to the comments on the ageing potential of 389. We are still drinking the 1998 vintage of 389 with pleasure. This wine outlasts most estimates if from a good vintage. I won’t buy more than a bottle of the 2017 because I don’t expect to live long enough to enjoy it at its best! We’ll stick to our existing older vintages. We have never had a 389 that didn’t develop and give great pleasure until it had all gone.
8/10/20, 2:00 AM - I have been drinking TA Riesling for 3 decades and have always found that it shows its true quality with time. I have not had an example that did not improve and develop attractive complexity over 2 decades plus. Trouble is, you have to believe in it and keep it for that long to check out my recommendation!
8/1/20, 11:37 AM - I agree. I 'discovered' Musar 40 years ago and have been smitten by it since then. The price has gradually risen in real terms but it remains incredible value for money. Every vintage is unique and every bottle is interesting and gives great pleasure.
5/25/20, 10:50 AM - I would always decant Musar - red or white. I have just enjoyed a 2003 which was slow to open over hours and was still developing next day. Decanting helps to start this development, quite apart from removing the grunge.
5/1/20, 12:34 PM - Thanks for your comment. You may have a point but I have notes on many immediately enjoyable examples of good Rioja with less bottle age than this one which were superb at 15 years+ whilst still promising more for the future. I include Torre Muga, Prado Enea, Muga Seleccion Especial, Contino Vina del Olivo, Baron de Ley Gran Reserva. A few of my notes are on CT. I also taste quite a few newly released (and much younger examples) of Reservas and Gran Reservas at portfolio tastings and find much to appreciate, even in their relative youth. Perhaps there is more bottle variation here than we are used to these days. My previous Tondonia (in a good Restaurant) was flawed, unfortunately.
4/24/20, 12:14 PM - It will age well. Give it time - this is a baby. Musar begins to show after 15+ years. The 90s are showing well and the 'noughties' are just beginning to indicate their potential. Always open a few hours before tasting even with older vintages. It is often a better wine next day if as young as 2012. Musar does not respond to the pnp approach. We are enjoying Musar from the 90s but still have a few very enjoyable 80s vintages. It took a few bottles for us to appreciate that Serge Hochar did not make his wine for instant gratification.
4/24/20, 1:51 PM - Yes, I have signed up for this. I know Gaston (and I knew his father, Serge, rather better) so I will be interested to know his thoughts on how this vintage will develop.
4/28/20, 6:58 AM - I have just received my copy of 'Chateau Musar - the story of a wine icon' and the comment from Steven Spurrier on the 2012 is perhaps of interest:'.... needs to lose "puppy fat" and move into its second decade before showing its character to the full.' Drink 2022 - 2035.
3/19/20, 7:37 AM - Thanks for your comment. I've always found the fruit lasts as the tannins soften but we'll see with this one. Of course, a fair bit of tannin is often just what is needed with food. I'm keeping another 4 more recent vintages of JXM for a while, yet.
1/24/20, 12:54 AM - Thank you for your comment. I wonder if it is a general opinion or based on knowledge of this wine and vintage. 'Aggressive' does not describe my handling of this wine. I have many much older bottles and would never 'jug' old wines; exposure to air was gentle and the sediment was heavy. The wine was tasted on de-corking and over time but our serious tasting only began when the time was judged to be right. It certainly needed more than 'half an hour in the glass' to open and show its qualities. There was no question of it being 'killed stone dead'. I tried to describe the wine's development in case other long-time Penfolds lovers are interested. À chacun son goût.
12/25/19, 10:16 AM - I agree, Brent. Lovely now, given time to open, but with much more to offer in the future.Incidentally, Janice Robinson suggests drinking from 2020 to 2040.
11/15/19, 9:44 AM - I agree totally with Goldstone. It has decades, yet. I am still enjoying vintages going back to 1981. I have never had a Musar that was too old, given good storage.
11/14/19, 6:12 AM - This was a good question from VTCityDweller. I was surprised to see so many bottles being 'popped and poured' in this, otherwise very helpful and interesting, blog. I have vintages going back to the early 80s and never p&p, even with older bottles. I give them at least 4-5 hours and find, as you did, that they still develop after that. For the relatively younger vintages (2000+) I often find the wine improves overnight in the re-closed bottle or decanter. Try this with a small amount and see if you get even more complexity and pleasure from Musar by giving the wine more time to stretch and open.In my note on the 1999 you will see that it had 6h+ to open at a Grand Union Wine Society tasting. This was with the active approval and hands-on involvement of Jane Sowter of Chateau Musar UK who presented the wine and has introduced a wide range of Musar wines and vintages at our Society every 2 or 3 years over a period of more than 20 years.
11/2/19, 3:05 AM - Thanks but it was under cork. Cork in perfect condition when pulled.
8/17/19, 5:21 AM - It is easy to edit your contribution (and change your score).
7/14/18, 9:24 AM - Mike. I have had the 2013 for some time and am not the only one to have posted my impressions since 2017. As I said in my first note in September 2017, I posted two photos of the 2013 label back then.My usual UK supplier has the 2015 on his current list.I know the many variations on the name cause confusion and there are different wines from the same producer. Perhaps this has led to some misunderstanding?
7/14/18, 1:37 PM - Yes. It is a mess. I pointed this out in one of my notes on the 2011 vintage but it is beyond me to sort this out. I said then: 'I think the list of wines on CT under various combinations of: Domaine de la Bongran / Macon Villages / Vire Clesse / Macon Clesse / Quintaine / Cuvee Tradition / Thevenet / E.J. Thevenet etc. etc. is very confusing. Many of the wines under different headings are identical. This is partly the fault of the French system of classification which has led to slight name changes over recent years.' Perhaps the Thevenet family should liaise with CT and get this all straightened out. Regards, John
3/28/19, 10:54 AM - I'm sorry to have added to the confusion regarding this wine (the confusion started in the early noughties, if not earlier).I have added a clarification to my reviews but since the reviews on the Cuvee Tradition stopped in 2004 and actually cover a mix of cuvees, I can't see the point of trying to move my reviews (on a number of different vintages) since nobody seems to have added any notes to the Cuvee Tradition list in 15 years!Many thanks for your correction and clarification. I have only just opened another bottle of the 2013 and finally got my head around the confusion. Doh!
3/24/19, 3:26 PM - Thanks Geoffy. It is good to hear from a kindred spirit!
11/18/18, 2:36 AM - Hope it opens and shows well for you. Personally, I would be eager to try it after 24h and then put it aside for longer if it shows promise. I never, ever pnp a decent red - I have gradually developed a feel for which wines need an hour and which need 24 (CT notes make it easier for me). Decanting always helps and, of course, is crucial for older bottles with sediment.
4/2/18, 12:24 PM - If my experience with this wine over well over a decade is anything to go by, just give it time. It always improves over 5-10+ years. I'm currently being wowed by the 2009. I recognise the characteristics you describe but it has always come together with time. That said, I have a case of this vintage in my cellar but I haven't tasted it yet. So I have no real basis for disagreeing - just (I hope) a helpful comment based on my experience!
4/2/18, 2:08 PM - It may have been a bad 'un but I hope the next one will be better.....Good luck with future bottles. Perhaps I'll pull out a '14 and see how it shapes up in its youth.
10/29/17, 1:09 AM - Thanks for your thoughts. It is always good to find that one's reaction to a wine is shared.I only wondered about longer cellaring because I bought a dozen bottles of 2008 Bin 28 soon after release and found it extremely disappointing. Coming back to it earlier this year, it was stunning. Some Penfolds wines do that! Yes, I would be willing to buy a few more if Waitrose decided to clear the decks for less than a tenner but it would be a long shot.
10/29/17, 12:08 PM - Which 707? I have a single remaining bottle of 1998 bought when I could still afford top-end Penfolds. I'm still debating when to drink it........
6/27/17, 8:18 AM - Thanks, Mike. I thought it was worth mentioning that it survived in the fridge without significant detriment for weeks after opening. It is the best bargain 'sweetie' I know. The vintages seem very even in quality, too.
2/4/17, 7:42 AM - Thanks for picking up on my typo. It was indeed the RWT and not the St Henri (though the St Henri is also a worthy alternative to Grange for those of us whose budgets are not unlimited). We compared the 2012 and the 2000 RWT side by side. I have corrected my note.
1/18/17, 3:17 PM - Thanks for your comment, Chatters. Much appreciated. As you will see from my note of January 2017, I think it is holding up well. Apologies for the slow response to your comment......
1/7/17, 10:17 AM - Thanks for your comment. Yes, I think a day makes a big difference. Of course, it is probably better to cellar it for a bit longer and see how it develops. It depends how you like older semillon-rich white Bordeaux.
12/17/16, 9:04 AM - Thanks. I only wish I had more..........
8/24/15, 12:07 AM - Thanks for your helpful comment. My suggestion regarding its life was partly based on a comment from Jane Sowter at Musar UK that the '94 would have a long life but should be drunk before the '93.I will hold back and drink my '87s first. I have no doubt they will all live on vigorously - I have never felt that a Musar is too old.
8/24/15, 1:32 AM - I have amended my original note to reflect thoughts on the likely longevity of the '94 and to correct my mistake about the wines presented after Serge's Memorial Service in London in March 2015. I found my notes and we shared '59 (so significant!), '69, '72, '88, '95 (and '03 with food). For completeness, I should add that his beloved whites from '69, '89, and '03 were also served. No hurry there, either!Thanks for the prompt.
6/20/15, 2:46 AM - I believe this wine is wrongly listed. This blend is made in Mendoza and not Patagonia. The correct wine is listed under Vinalba Malbec Touriga Nacional. Hope this is helpful.
Thanks for letting us know about this problem. We will review your comments and be in touch soon with an update.
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